Matthew 5:27,28

[AlecBGreen]

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

To me this is an important passage from the NT because Christ explicitly upholds the Law and yet simultaneously turns it on its head. I think all would agree that adultery, however you define right/wrong, is wrong. Yet according to this passage we are not only to refrain from it, we not to entertain even the idea of sleeping with another. Foolishness! some say. How can I control what pops up into my mind? You cannot. But we are each faced with a choice: if such thoughts do arise (and I feel they come naturally, a product of our evolutionary past) we are not to entertain them. The further we chase those thoughts, the further we get from God. Someone living on the edge of the Grand Canyon might quickly lose sight of just how beautiful it is. Each of us, constantly at the mercy of our whirling thoughts, quickly lose sight of just how powerful our thoughts are and what profound affects they have on our conscience.

Some questions for ye denizens of the R/T:

How do you determine right & wrong? Is it subjective or objective? Can some acts which might be considered 'wrong' by society be acceptable in certain circumstances?

Is it destructive to entertain thoughts of doing wrong or has it little/no effect?

Through reading Buddhist literature (Thich Nhat Hahn, the Dalai Lama, Trungpa Rinpoche) and my own personal experience, I have found its possible to alter my perception of reality in a positive way through prayer & meditation. Do you agree? If it is possible, why dont we do it more?

[raging moderate]

1. God is Love!

There is a wonderful old hymn, very simple and very true:

Praise Him, praise Him, all you little children.
God is Love! God is Love!
Love Him, love Him, all you little children.
God is Love! God is Love!

I suddenly had a vision of those horrible so-called church protesters being drowned out by a crowd singing this song, or one like it.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

2. Burning Witches, Manifest Destiny, Slavery, segregation, & subjugation of women come to mind.

Can some acts which might be considered 'wrong' by society be acceptable in certain circumstances

[AlecBGreen]

11. the majority of what you mentioned WERE acceptable to society

I am not well versed in the history of these but to my understanding, burning witches WAS acceptable to the society, as was manifest destiny, slavery, etc. It wasnt until the vocal minority convinced the majority that these were wrong that things began to change. Thankfully, I see the same change with acceptance of homosexuality occurring today.

[laconicsax]

12. Since this is a religion forum, it's important to point something out.

In all of those examples, both sides claimed that the Bible supported their position.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

13. Existing cultures today still practice subjugation of women and a form of slavery

[laconicsax]

14. Our culture still practices both to varying degrees. n/t

[Bad Thoughts]

15. The dynamics of witch hunts were actually somewhat different

At least in Europe, witch hunts weren't large social events, even though we tend to bracket them historically. They began in the community, growing from specific charges. However, as the investigations became more complex and the trials became more numerous, they gained the attention of higher authorities (either political or clerical). Almost invariably these outside authorities found serious flaws with the whole process, bringing the trials to and end. I would say that as the trials became larger, society stopped them. What tends to cloud these dynamics is that fact that so many trials (and executions) occurred in a short period of time, making it seem as if they were concerted or planned.

[skepticscott]

22. The difference being that

there really aren't such things as witches in the first place (at least not of the type that those tortured, hanged and roasted were accused of being). It was only the irrational and unfounded belief in the supernatural by religionists of ALL stripes that allowed this kind of thinking to gain any traction in the first place.

[laconicsax]

3. Hooray for thought-crime!

:woohoo:

[trotsky]

4. !!

:thumbsup:

[edhopper]

5. Christian ideology

Sex, in action or thought is bad.
And also notice that adultery is by a man and the object is "her".
No excuse me while I check my bile fluids and look for leeches to help with my sores.

[AlecBGreen]

10. perhaps to some Christians, certainly not all

"Sex, in action or thought is bad. "

During confirmation (a kind of coming-of-age instruction) my pastor told us sex was created for two reasons: PROcreation and RECreation. I agree. Sex is and should be fun (if you're doing it right :P) but it has the potential to be physically and spiritually destructive. I think the sin/'wrongness' enters the equation when you see your sexual partner as a mere object to satisfy your desires and not as a human being deserving of affection.

[Bad Thoughts]

6. Morality and Cognition

Let me start be rejecting the equation of sin and thought made by the passage. I find it simply overreaching to place so much responsibility on the individual, especially since (as I will argue below) questions of morality cannot but be thought out. Other passages could have been used to illustrate the same problem, particularly in the prophetic books that deal with the misuse of law and social standing against the poor--places that steal examine what is within the heart. Moreover, this topic indeed seems timely because of the ongoing discussion about how we psychologically prepare ourselves for violence and whether our fantasies remove impediments to doing wrong.

Morality is nonetheless cognitive. Whether we believe in religion or not, dis/obedience to the law is not the sum of behavior. Clearly there are unacceptable behaviors that fall outside the purview of the law. Adultery (if I can continue with it as an example) is not criminally punishable in our society. What makes it wrong can only be understood in terms of the social relations of those involved (my spouse and family, the other's spouse and family, the community in general). Unlike murder, the immorality of adultery must be thought out first in terms that are not themselves objective. In my mind I mull over my behavior, consider responses to situations and place myself in society.

I think it is problematic that someone might think themselves out of morality. Our culture does celebrate those who follow their hearts and consciousnesses--renegade policemen, authority-bucking soldiers, Mark Fuhrman, people who are "true to themselves." I was just thinking of Diderot's La religieuse, a novel that puts religious institutions and sexual codes under the microscope, but more importantly offers a central character who is impossible to embrace as a victim. For all of Suzanne's tribulations, she is practiced at casting herself in a passive role wherein she is never conscious of her actions, wherein things occur without context.

[cleanhippie]

7. Right and wrong is group survival instinct, nothing more.

Once we humans mastered our individual survival instincts and started to form groups and tribes, we adhered to a natural set of group survival instincts that ensured the survival of not only the individual, but also the group. Through the course of history, those groups that had poor group survival instincts (poor methods of determining right and wrong) died out.

Right and Wrong are products of evolution and natural selection, nothing more.

[jeepnstein]

8. Jesus was raising the bar.

The Sermon on the Mount was all about ethical behavior in a world where the Jewish Law was about to be tossed on it's ear.

He chose to aim high on his standards and at the same time is quite willing to forgive all but one sin. Sin happens, we do it all the time. Adopting Christianity is certainly no sure-fire method for avoiding it. The best we can hope for is to strive to do our best and trust in his Grace and sense of humor.

Ultimately, I choose to model my ethical framework around the entirety of the New Testament. Not just the parts I like but the whole thing. That means I have to do some things that seem contrary to my own sense of right. An example would be that whole loving your enemy thing.

Prayer works in my life. I cannot explain it. It doesn't work like some magical spell that guarantees fame and fortune, but it works.

[Jim__]

9. Is adultery wrong? Depends on what you mean by adultery.

Take the passage you cited: "... But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

If men didn't look at women lustfully, the odds of our species surviving for long would drop considerably. So, if looking at a woman lustfully is adultery, then I have to say that adultery is not wrong - at least not in that case.

I think right and wrong are largely culturally determined - I consider that to be an intersubjective determination - as long as we treat in-group members the way they expect to be treated, we're acting morally.

And, of course I would consider violating social taboos under certain circumstances. By living together in a group, we have a tacit understanding of how we treat each other. Suppose the group has plenty of food available, but they don't allocate any food for me. I would consider that a violation of the tacit social agreement and would have no problem stealing food for my own and my families survival.

[GliderGuider]

16. That passage isn't about morality, it's about social control, norming and coercion.

Oh wait, that's what morality is...

All morality is relative to the circumstances of the action.

Consensus morality is just the set of social rules that most people have agreed makes the most sense to them under their existing circumstances.

Taboos are the boundaries that define the edges of consensus morality.

All taboos should be challenged frequently to test their value and encourage social and personal growth.

Meditation is a wonderful tool, but the goal is not simply to "alter my perception of reality in a positive way". Rather, the goal is to wake the fuck up and perceive reality as it actually IS. Sometimes that hurts, which is a good thing.

[AlecBGreen]

18. yes, I agree GG, should have worded it better

"Meditation is a wonderful tool, but the goal is not simply to "alter my perception of reality in a positive way". Rather, the goal is to wake the fuck up and perceive reality as it actually IS."

To put it crudely, the more I awaken the better I feel.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. reinforced by paul's hatred of women and hatred of the body.

I get sick of lectures about carnality.

If we didn't have bodies we would not be able to experience the world. That's the way it is.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. I interpret the passage quite differently

It's in a whole set of startling statements ("Whoever hates his brother is a murderer," "If your right eye offends thee, pluck it out," etc.)

What the passage is actually saying (and Jimmy Carter got in trouble for expressing the same idea when some journalists who misunderstood his point--on purpose or out of ignorance--when he said that he had "lusted in his heart") is that we all have the same impulses, such as enraged hatred and lusting after someone who is off limits, so we shouldn't feel all superior and righteous just because we haven't acted on our impulses. We have the same potential for sin.

It is too bad that Puritans of all stripes have misinterpreted this passage and used it to make teenagers feel guilty for fantasizing about sex.

[skepticscott]

20. And on what objective basis

do you proclaim so arrogantly that your interpretation is correct and that the Puritans' interpretation (along with others) is incorrect? Is it just because your interpretation allows you to maintain the warm and fuzzy cocoon you've made out of your religion, and blunt all of the harshness that makes you uncomfortable? That's what liberal Xstian theology is for, after all. But unless you have some special insight into the mind and intention of Jesus (or whoever really made these statements), perhaps you should speak less arrogantly, and admit that your interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's, and cannot possibly be.

[toddaa]

21. Jesus doesn't say anything about potential for sin

I think he's quite clear that the thought of committing a sin is the same as the act itself. While it's certainly reasonable to take away from this that none of us should feel superior, the central point he's making is that the thought is the same as the act. Christianity attained power precisely because of how "Puritans" interpret this passage.