Pagans should take back "Christmas" from the Xtians

[redqueen]

I'm beyond sick of their bleating about it. Honestly.

[Beware the Beast Man]

1. My God, I have nowhere to run.

Unwelcome by the Right, unwelcome by the Left. What is a poor Prog. Catholic to do? :cry:

[Left Is Write]

2. You could hang out with this leftwing Lutheran.

:hug:

[JVS]

24. You didn't check in on our thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=1666&mesg_id=1666

:hi:

[redqueen]

3. You're not bleating, are you?

Or are you being sarcastic?

Lounge Denizens... you are driving me mad!

Seriously... do you really understand why Christians have their panties in a was over a holiday they stole from the Pagans to begin with?

Wait... strike that... they still can't admit Jesus wasn't white.

Nevermind.

[Beware the Beast Man]

6. I'm bleating, redqueen.

I've really had it with the bickering on both ends of the arguement. I'm tired of the "keep the Christ in Christmas" folk that, if they're truly fundie enough, shouldn't be celebrating a pagan holiday co-opted by the Church in the first place. I'm also sick of the sanctimonious "I hate XMas for (fill in the blank) reason, boo-fucking hoo" people, too. Just let me have my eggnog, lights, and cup of cheer, DAMMMIT! :grr:

[Left Is Write]

9. C'mon over. We've got it all over here.

House lights, two Christmas trees, holiday music, cookies, eggnog (both with and without alcohol), and a great selection of Christmas movies.

[redqueen]

10. Oh I'm with you... I love Christmas

I just wish it were better understood.

[Beware the Beast Man]

16. Yes. If they are true fundies,

they would not be celebrating Christmas at all. You see, it's something that Satanic Vatican Church came up with centuries ago to destroy Christianity. :eyes:

[redqueen]

18. I hope these freaks don't seriously believe that

It was stolen to help POPULARIZE the religion, FCOL!

[LiberalEsto]

4. Absolutely.

I've been working on it in my own household.

If the Xtians want to celebrate, they can do it in April or whenever someone figured out Jesus was born. Dec. 21-25 is for Yule, Saturnalia, the birthday of Mithras, etc. Give us back OUR holiday.

[redqueen]

5. That's kind of what I'm thinking

If they want to celebrate Jesus' birthday and NOTHING ELSE, so they don't have to have their sensitive minds wracked with knowledge that actually there are OTHER reasons to celebrate -- which I might add were celebrated LONG before Jesus was around -- then they should celebrate at a more appropriate time, perhaps.

Is that so much to ask?

[lindashaw]

7. I think the facts are that Jesus was probably born in the fall of the

year. The sheep were still out on the grasslands before being brought in for the winter. At least, that's my understanding.

[tridim]

8. I wouldn't have agreed with you... Until this year

O'Reilly's idiotic blathering and the fact that they have politicized Christmas has changed my mind.

[redqueen]

13. I wouldn't have said such a thing until this year.

"Re"-electing the pretzeldent has resulted in a sea change in this country. I don't like it.

[CarbonDate]

11. Apollo: The Reason for the Season n/t

.

[Chovexani]

26. Amen.

No pun intended. :hi:

[skygazer]

12. I just wish people could be sensible about it

I don't celebrate Christmas but a lot of people do. It can be a fun time of year. But all this bullshit just makes for a lot of bad feeling and stress on the part of everybody.

I don't understand why those who want to celebrate Christmas cannot celebrate it properly without freaking out over other peoples not celebrating. I don't see why my non-involvement affects them in any way. It's damn weird.

It's similar to saying that gay marriage is a threat to heterosexual marriage - the two don't equate.

The country is just going more and more crazy. I think I'm just going to go put my head in the toilet and flush. :hurts:

[Union Thug]

14. Even if you add the neo-pagans to the Asatru to the occultists

with pagan sympathies, you'll never have the numbers.

[redqueen]

15. Yeah

It was kind of a joke... I know there's no stopping the commercial juggernaut which is Christ's "Birthday"

[demnan]

17. Who cares?

Merry Whatever!

[mcscajun]

19. Indeed! Got tired of the argument and listened to Dar Williams instead.

Argued it here in another thread...argued it in detail on another board prior to that...then I just downloaded an MP3 of "The Christians and the Pagans" and withdrew from the fight. :)

give a listen:
http://tinyurl.com/5cjqw

[InvisibleBallots]

20. Pagans never had Christmas to begin with

The idea that Christmas is really some ancient pagan holiday is a theory, based on little, if any, evidence.

I can point you to one million websites that claim it was, but none of them have anything even close to primary historical evidence. Do you?

[Dead_Parrot]

21. Come again?

If you want something comparative, try some Joseph Cambell, or Fraziers "The Golden Bough".

Alternativley, try getting your teeth into "the Anglo-Saxon Clonicles" or one of the Roman diaryists like Pliny the Elder if you want the first-hand accounts...

[InvisibleBallots]

22. I've read Joseph Campbell

He's a great author. I've also read Pliny and excerpts from the Anglo Saxon chronciles - I'm sure not an expert though.

So, can you offer me some proof about this ancient pagan holiday? And perhaps also some sort of connection between modern "neo-pagans" and these ancient pagans? Thanks!

[Dead_Parrot]

25. Erm...

So you know that the Romans celebrated Saturnalia for a week or so in teh middle of winter, including the feast of Sol Inviticus on the 25th, and that the Germanic tribes (including the norse) cebrated Yule (meaning the wheel) at the solstice. All three are recorded, so am I missing the point?

I never mentioned neo-paganism, but since you asked, it's a collection of belief systems based of the surviving myths of pre-Christian Europe (primarily the Germanic, Celtic, and Greekoroman myths, but with a smattering of others.)

[InvisibleBallots]

27. really?

So, this is in Pliny?

[Dead_Parrot]

30. Which bit?... n/t

[Chovexani]

28. Reconstructionism.

If you want a connection between ancient and modern Pagans, look no further than the Reconstructionist movement. Like anything else involving Pagans it varies among different groups/individuals, but the gist of it is a sincere effort to reconstruct religions from ancient, usually Western cultures--Asatruar practice a sort of Norse Reconstructionism IIRC (I am only slightly familiar with that so I'm not sure), but there are Hellenic Reconstructionists, Roman Reconstructionists, Egyptian Reconstructionists (Kemetic Orthodoxy is one example), etc. Some take it to further extremes than others; I consider myself a Hellenist Wiccan and while I am dedicated to the Greek pantheon and Apollo and Athena in particular, and research how they were worshipped in ancient times and try my best to incorporate that into my practice, my rituals probably look very different than someone who is a strict Hellenic Reconstructionist. I'd give you websites and whatnot but I'm sleepy and my links are all on my other computer; a quick Google could probably help you out.

[InvisibleBallots]

29. so, neo-paganism is like a cargo cult?

Cargo cults were mini-religions that were made up by primitive people based on artifacts washed up on their shores from shipwrecks. The culture had no clue what these objects were, or where they came from, so they tried to "reconstruct" where they came from, and invented a religion/cult based on their reconstructions. Is this what neo-paganism is like?

[Dead_Parrot]

32. LOL! Not that bad.

We can be sure, for instance, that the story of Persephone's descent into the Underworld is an allegory for the changing seasons, rather than, say, a box of tennis shoes from the gods.

[Solon]

34. That is not only inaccurate, but also insulting...

First off, as said above, Neo-Paganism is a catch all term, and is not a religion in itself. As an example, Asatruar usually will call themselves Heathens and not Pagans or Neo-Pagans. All Re-constructionists try to use the best of their knowledge to Reconstruct the religions of old. Its not based on ignorance in itself, but on the knowledge we have of those religions, provided by, of all things, the science of Archeology. This is not to say that the knowledge is perfect, no knowledge is, nor can they be 100% accurate in the portrayal of the religion in question because of modern constraints. This is true of all religions, to be frank about it, even Modern Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not like their ancient precursors. I would doubt that the Christianity of today would be recognized by 1st century Christians, the same could be said for all religions of today. To give an example, human sacrifice is considered a big no no nowadays, but back 2000 years ago, most wouldn't of bat an eyelash to it.

There is a general difference between Neo-Pagans and Pagans is that Pagans, in general terms are the re-constructionists, as explained above. Neo-Pagans follow religions that are new, relatively, and have their own rituals and beliefs distinct from religions they were based on. This would be similar to how Christianity, Judaism and Islam all diverged into different religions while worshiping the same God. Wicca, as an example, is a religion that is only about 50 years old, based, roughly, on largely Celtic Mythology(Oh My Gods, that terrible word!) including incorporating many of holidays and rituals into it, but has diverged enough to be distinct from Celtic Re-constructionists.

All of this is only my opinion of course, but usually those described above, like myself, are polytheists who usually follow Gods and Goddesses based in or around Europe before and during the ascendancy of Christianity. They hold as much a diversity of opinion as anyone from Monotheistic faiths, as the joke goes, as 10 pagans for their opinion on religion and get 12 different answers. :) I don't know if you are trying to be condescending on purpose or not, but it is always best to try to actually gain knowledge of what you are talking about before you spout off out of ignorance, just a suggestion.

[InvisibleBallots]

35. that joke isn't original to Pagans of course

"as the joke goes, as 10 pagans for their opinion on religion and get 12 different answers."

The original is, of course, ask two Jews and you get three opinions. :)

[Solon]

36. That's true enough...

I heard that one too, but who knows what the original is, as everything to do with common sayings, the source is rather ambiguous.

[arwalden]

23. You And Me Both! (Bleee-eh-eh-eh-eh-eh!)

Have you ever in your life seen such an oppressed group of individuals as these overwrought zealot Christians? Judging solely from the wailing and whining and chorus of indignation, you'd almost think that folks were being fed to the lions. (Bleee-eh-eh-eh-eh-eh!)

This sense of entitlement and being above reproach, above criticism, and above the law... the constitution, just makes me wretch. Any word that's falls short of abject reverence and deference is immediately labeled "hate speech". (Bleee-eh-eh-eh-eh-eh!)

Obviously, they aren't all like as chauvinistic as that, but it sure seems that way, doesn't it?

[slutticus]

31. I believe they also stole Easter.

:P

[davidinalameda]

33. and most of the saint days as well

since many saints were once pagan gods that were "converted" so as to gain the trust of those who followed the pagan ways

[Solon]

37. I believe the name comes from the Fertility Goddess Eostre...

guess what her favorite animal was! ;)

[slutticus]

38. A Bunny Rabbit?

[Solon]

39. More acuratly the Hare...

check this site out for more info...

http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/eostre.html

ON EDIT: Yes you are correct!

[InvisibleBallots]

40. I was wrong - Pagans should reclaim Christmas from the Christians

Pagans should mount a large scale public relation campaign, accusing Christians of stealing all their holidays, and claiming to be the true originators of Christmas, all of the St's birthdays, and Easter.