To my religious friends: what makes you so sure there is an after-life?

[LAGC]

We had an interesting exchange that kind of flared up in my local newspaper's Letters to the Editor this morning.

What sparked it was a liberal Christian reverend's opinion piece in the Life section a month ago -- she was basically saying that all religious people have salvation, that ANY spiritual path is good enough to earn eternity with God. (She notably left non-believers in the lurch, I guess we're still damned if we don't follow any spiritual path at all. Go figure.) Anyway, her op-ed predictably got the fundies fired up, and a couple of them came roaring in this morning's Letters to the Editor page, "putting her in her place" regarding Jesus as the only path to salvation:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2011/03/05/1552852/letters-to-the-editor.html

It's always amusing to see fundies and their more sensible liberal Christian brethren going at it with each other. Its like watching soccer (football) fans in Europe going at it over whose team is superior, often culminating in violence.

I guess what really gets me is: how are BOTH of them so damned sure there is life after death to begin with? It's that assumed point that nobody dares speak about or question, but I find it quite odd.

I mean, except for the kooks who swear that reincarnation is real, how many people remember their "before-lives?" What makes people so certain that their after-lives are going to be fundamentally any different than their before-lives? Without a functioning brain to process sensations like pain and pleasure -- what do we have left to work with, to experience... anything? Once the brain goes, so goes our consciousness -- and our ability to sense things. I just don't get how people can get so worked up about what amounts to wishful thinking on their part. I mean, sure, its a likable idea. I mean, who wouldn't want to live forever? Life in the "hereafter" is a fascinating idea, it gives people hope, especially when coping with the loss of loved ones. But just because something is desirable doesn't make it any more of a fact.

The fundies say we atheists will be shocked to find out what happens after we die -- well, likewise, I'd love to see the reaction on their faces when they die and find out that their hoped-for "Paradise" isn't there after all. But of course, they won't be around to realize just how wrong they really were, how all those countless thousands of hours wasted in church and praying to their deities didn't earn them jack-shit.

But, of course, maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to admit that. I don't know anything for certain, how can we without first-hand experience? All we have is inference and logic to come to our conclusions, and of course, the anecdotal accounts of those who had "near-death" experiences...

But what evidence do YOU have that there exists life after death? What makes YOU believe against all odds? And don't just say "faith" -- that's a cop out. For even faith is informed by some sort of rationalization on the part of believers. I mean, what experiences or events lead you to believe the mind is truly separable from the brain? I honestly want to know.

[Curmudgeoness]

1. Not being a believer, I can only relate what I have been told

by friends who are true believers. I know two people who swear that they were visited at the exact time of death by loved ones. If this were true, and I have no reason to believe that they did not think this happened, then it proves to them that these people had a soul that was able to communicate with them. This was their proof, and I suppose that if this happened to me, I might change my opinions a great deal.

And thanks for the image of the fundies being shocked to find out what happens after they die. "hours wasted in church and praying to their deities didn't earn them jack-shit". LOL, too funny. :rofl:

[RandomThoughts]

2. Might as well answer that.

First off, it is not about knowing there is.

It is about not knowing for sure.

You need it to be faith, to also include heart and reason. Once you don't know for sure you have to make a choice, not just do for some ends justify means. And in some teachings that is what is taught.


So once you don't know for sure, you think what is the choice you would make. And you don't 'do' or not 'do' for heaven, or fear of hell, but because it is what you think and feel is best. Since you can't know for sure if there is after life.

Then you do what you think is best, with the teachings from your faith, while also thinking if they are of love, and make sense, and most are of better ideas.

Then after awhile of that, you see the supernatural.

Then once you do see the supernatural, suddenly it becomes really easy to understand how an afterlife exists.

If you have seen the supernatural, then the odds that there is an afterlife goes way up.

But from my view, it is not about knowing there is a heaven, it is not knowing then finding it. Maybe the idea of dieing to find your life? That concept of that strife creating the thinking and feeling that makes for being able to reach the concept of the supernatural.


That's how I think of it.

But for some humor, and to answer the specific question of how I know the mind could be separate then the body. I saw it on a Star Trek Episode :D

[ZombieHorde]

3. I doubt they chose to believe in an afterlife. It's probably just simple cause and effect.

They were raised to believe in an afterlife, a coincidence happened during a difficult time, etc. Faith, and lack thereof, is probably just a byproduct of memory.

[raccoon]

38. I was raised to believe in an afterlife, and I did believe in it for a long time.

Then about maybe 10 years ago, I re-examined my belief, and decided that I don't believe in an afterlife.

I can see how it's comforting, how so many want to believe in it. But it's wishful thinking.

[GliderGuider]

47. I went the other way (sort of).

I was raised in a scientific, atheist household, with no belief in gods or anything non-material. For my entire life I scorned spiritual beliefs, and excoriated those who held them. Then after 57 years I discovered that those were actually my father's beliefs, not mine. So I set out to discover what my own beliefs were, and I ended up shifting. I still don't believe in gods or the Christian/Islamic form of an "afterlife". I do believe that there is an eternal aspect to "me" (whatever that "me" is) that exists outside space and time, and forms the field within which "me" happens.

I have no way of knowing if this belief is objectively true in any sense or not, but that's not the point. It's a useful belief to me. It improves my quality of life, and that's all that matters.

[Warpy]

4. Probably the same thing that has them convinced there is a god

and that the bible is god's inspired word.

All any of us knows for certain, believer or heathen, is that it's a one way trip. Some of us who've been close know it's not a bad one, but whether we float into paradise or just float into oblivion on a tide of happy hormones is pure conjecture.

[mahina]

5. Hope it's ok if I respond

because I am not religious, but I do have experiences to share very briefly.

When my great uncle died, my Mom was a kid. She felt him come and visit her in spirit, felt huge, huge love, and felt him leave. This was inconsistent with her family's religion. She learned the next day that he had died very near that time.

When both my father and grandmother died, I was visited by an enormous, indescribably huge love. I know they both came to say goodbye to me. It lasted moments and I still miss that feeling of love from them.

My grandma, who was completely NOT religious at all, had a hilarious story to tell of meeting Jesus. Really. He looked like a regular person. He later woke her up on a hospital bed, 30 years later, pulled on her toe while doctors were operating on her and she was dying. He pulled on her toe and said "You aren't done here yet. You have stuff to do". This from my grandma who would chase religious solicitors away from the house saying "I am not buying any God Damed Religion!"

Only my Mom's experience meets your criteria I guess. I'm not really up for persuading anybody. I'm comfortable with the idea that we all have our own realities. Yours is as good as mine.

[mahina]

12. whoops. cannot edit but 'damned' has an 'n' in it.

oops. I guess that makes me a fundie
lols

also, my grandma only told people very close to her the story about Jesus because she thought people would regard her as irrational. She was an incredible intellect, heart, mind...she worked in the native pacific entomology dept. at a local museum.

[Jokinomx]

22. Thanks for sharing... it's important for others to hear....

Whenever someone comes knocking on my door to talk about being saved.... I tell them to close the Book. I have ten books that will say otherwise. Let's talk about experiences. That is what changes people I tell them.

I will share one of mine... then ask them to share one of their life experiences.

They generally don't come back... even though I always say they are welcome.

Again.. thanks for sharing. :-)

Peace

[DeadEyeDyck]

56. I have similar personal experiences

but they are so special that I am no interest in arguing about them.

[cleanhippie]

58. So why tell us all about them if you don't want to discuss them?

[shraby]

6. I know one thing..I won't know till I die and I'm not dying to find out.

[DinahMoeHum]

10. If the DUzy awards were brought back. . .you'd be a winner.

:thumbsup:

[shraby]

17. Thanks

[MineralMan]

7. Faith - The Evidence of Things Unseen.

Also evidence of things non-existent. Also, evidence of nothing.

Faith is very powerful, indeed. It proves almost anything to those who have it. :sarcasm:

[MineralMan]

8. Believers won't find out anything after they die.

Nobody will. When you die, there's an end to you, so you don't experience anything, because you no longer exist. Isn't that a relief?

[GKirk]

9. John Edward told me so...

... he wouldn't lie would he?

[Snoutport]

11. This is what changed my world.... a psychic experience I can't explain.

My very best buddy died of cancer when he and were in high school. I spent everyday for a summer holding his hand in the hospital and then he was gone. I graduated and headed out into the world with a "I'm going to do what I want to do because I could be dead tomorrow" attitude. I traveled the world going to crazy-ass places and did stupid and daring things.

And then in 1990, 8 years after my friend died, I got dragged to see a psychic in London. Nobody there knew me, I never said a word in the building, my luggage had been stolen so everything I was wearing was local... and this older lady named Winnie says, "I'm going to talk about whatever is strongest and I'm starting with this young man over here."

Winnie points to me and proceeds to dump out amazing details one-after-another. He's American, he's been traveling all year, blah blah blah..and then she says, "standing behind you is your spirit guide. He is a very handsome young man...he looks to be 18 or 19, blonde, blue eyed, wearing a blue and white striped jumper (my friend's favorite shirt was a blue and white striped shirt with a hoody....i think he was buried in it).and he's holding his fingers like bunny ears behind your head. He never leaves your side and he's saved your life three times. (i'd had three very close calls to my life at that point). He keeps saying "be alert." He keeps repeating "be alert" and I think you know what that means.

a week or so before he died, our friend debbie gave us a card that showed this fat blobby creature saying "be alert! be alert!" and on the inside: "the world needs more lerts".

And...well...that was that. There's something after this. I don't know what it is but apparently you can make bunny ears and jokes from the next place. Never been afraid of death since.

[mahina]

13. I so love that story.

Thank you. That gives me a smile and some comfort on this ridiculously difficult day. Mahalo!

[Frustratedlady]

14. I have had many experiences with family members at their death.

One was scientific...wasn't sure about religion, but wasn't actively involved through most of his life. The morning of his death, I asked how he was feeling. He looked at the windows to the hospital room and said, "they are everywhere." I asked who "they" were and he said, "Everybody...just everybody." This forever sensible person was stunned and captivated by what he was seeing. I asked the doctor if that was from the medication and he said no, that he wasn't really getting anything that would cause him to act like that and left the room. Throughout the day, he watched TV...a golf tournament, mostly. He kept watching the clock and at 4:00 asked if I knew what was going to happen in a short time. I mentioned that the nurse was going to give him a shot to help with his breathing. He shook his head as though I just didn't understand. At five minutes before 6:00, he told those of us in the room that he loved us and that he'd wait for us. At 6:00, he was gone.

Since then, many, many things have happened that make me a believer that he is nearby. I won't go into them, but one sign is a red heart that keeps showing up at the oddest times and places. It cannot be explained away.

I once had a customer who told me that every time they have a family dinner, they take photos. He said that they noticed in one group of photos they had picked up there were shadows of figures standing behind them. His wife's mother, father and two sisters had been killed in a car accident years before. The figures were the same shape and height her family members had been. They dug out old family photos and found the same thing and were shocked they had never noticed that before. He said every once in a while his dogs (every one they've had since the accident) would suddenly go to a corner or stand at a wall and bark. He said it happened in different houses, so it wasn't something in the walls. He was afraid to tell anyone for fear they would think he was crazy.

So, yeah. I believe there is something...I'm just not sure what it is for certain.

[Snoutport]

15. When my aunt passed....

I too had a very strange experience. I was sleeping at her feet with my face against the back of the sofa. I wasn't asleep--I couldn't sleep because I was sort of freaking out. Even though there was no actual sound it seemed that there was a loud din in the room...like there was a whole crowd of people behind me and it felt like they were all focusing on me. Very strange. I finally gave up and got up and went to my aunt's bedside. She was awake and looking up at the ceiling over her face.

And suddenly I just kind of knew what was going on...her loved ones were there for her and I said, "Do you see your mom? Go with her. I love you." and she smiled, looked up again dreamily, her throat rattled and she was gone. I closed her eyes and wasn't sad at all. It was her time and now I know nobody goes alone. Just the opposite in fact...it sure felt like one heck of a crowd!

[Frustratedlady]

33. That's the impression I got, too. He just kept scanning the windows...

and was not afraid, at all. In fact, in a previous hospitalization, I truly believe he had a near death experience and was a changed person when he recovered. It was amazing.

[Jokinomx]

23. wow... a powerful experience... thank you so much for sharing....

While my Father was nearing his death, he spoke of others waiting for him. He pointed up and said "There, right there....they are all waiting for me." he said "My Daddy is here...he said it is almost time" His Father had been killed in a motorcycle accident when my Father was 12 years old. He said "He is laughing, saying if I don't hurry up I he would paddle his ass!." My Dad chuckled.

My Father also said they told him things that he isn't supposed to tell us.

Yes.. there is an afterlife... no doubt about it in my mind.


Peace...

[Snoutport]

37. Peace to you too!

Thanks for sharing your story. It is nice to know I'm not the only one :0)

[TNDemo]

43. I would like to know why mine feel they have to tell me they're dying.

I mean as they are about to die, always in a dream. When my father died ten years ago there were three of us in different cities who all dreamed he was about to die, though unexpectedly. I dreamed it three times in a row. I kept trying to call him the next day (200 miles away) and couldn't reach him but he had died mowing the yard and was in his back yard where no one could see him. We do know the time of death, though, because someone saw him right before he went on the mower to the back of the house, so it was about 10:00 that morning. A good friend my dad's age died one night and I had a dream where he looked healthy and I was happy and then a coffin appeared. I tried to resist and he kept telling me it was fine. There have been a couple of others. I have absolutely no idea why this happens and it is not like I could do anything to prevent it. I guess they are just saying adios.

[Jokinomx]

21. What a wonderful experience....

Read mine ... posted a few after yours.

My wife's experience has convinced us that connecting to the otherside is possible.

I wonder if this might be the next step in the evolution of the human mind. As there are many people that seem to be able to connect. Some have become quite famous... Jon Edward, James Van Pragge come to mind.

Thanks so much for sharing... I think it is important that people do share their personal experiences. By doing this, it encourages others to have an open mind and slowly as more people reveal their experiences, we will gain a more accurate understanding of reality.

Peace

[GliderGuider]

49. What a great story! Thanks for sharing.

You're a lucky man to be aware of this. Congratulations to you and your buddy - gives new meaning to the term "BFF" doesn't it?

It seems that the non-physical aspects of reality are filled with uproarious good humour. And why not? What would be the point of a glum, dour, serious otherlife?

[rug]

16. To the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure. – Albus Dumbledore

If it's good enough for Harry it's good enough for me.

[laconicsax]

19. So I see you're willing to admit that the Bible has the same veracity as children's fiction. n/t

[rug]

27. Your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your

greatest weakness. - Dumbledore to Voldermort.

[laconicsax]

29. A simple "yes" would have sufficed. n/t

[GSanon]

74. children's fiction? HARRY POTTER IS THE REAL THING!

Even that miserable muggle known as Dr. James Dobson agrees - haha!

[barbtries]

18. who said you have to be religious

to believe in an afterlife?

i am not religious. pretty much despise religion. don't believe in gawd. but i believe there's another side, the other side, and that when i die, i will see my loved ones again. we will be together.

i could give testimony to events that have enabled and strengthened this belief, but bottom line is i believe it because i have chosen to do so. it makes living more palatable to me, specifically living without the person in my life who was killed away from me when she was barely 21 years old, my daughter.

[roguevalley]

24. I had a near death experience. I died in my sister's living room, it was

so easy. I was gasping and falling forward then it went gray and then it was almost like a popping sound. I was in Medford, Oregon on a street I knew, it was warm and sunny, all the colors were so amazing. I saw my mother as a young woman standing before me wearing a summer dress and white sandals. I knew at that moment I couldn't stay and then I was back. Dying was so incredibly non-painful and quick, so easy.

I have had a lot of experiences because people in my family are psychic to a degree that varies. I have heard my name whispered to me off and on since I was really small. I have always sensed the presence of people that I couldn't see. I have even seen shadow figures of people. When I am upset I feel a tingling of energy on my face and shoulders that I know comes from my parents. That tingling is them touching you with their energy.

My mother and father died ten months apart and when my mother died, a really old nun asked us right after if we had seen or heard anything yet. It was seconds after my wonderful mother left us. The little nun attended all deaths at the hospital for decades and helped families. Electrical devices do strange things in my house, things are moved, pennies are everywhere even after I clean the place and I know its them. I saw hummingbirds everywhere and I still do. The day my dad died I took my mom home and we were just sitting there stunned. I sort of bustled and said I would check the mail for her. I even opened junk mail something I never do and when I did, pictures of hummingbirds fell out of the envelope. Hummingbirds are my dad's favorite bird. I saw a commercial on the tv in which in the middle of it a hummingbird flew up and filled the screen and then left. I have seen that commercial since and there is no hummingbird in it.

My mother often would tell of feeling someone sitting on the bed next to her. She saw her mom come to her when Grandma died. All of us gals on her side have some degree of psychic sensitivity.

I have consulted mediums after my parents died. I know. HA! FOOL! No, just listen. I always do something that is to safeguard the truth when I do and I only consult those that have been scrutinized and have a track record in the world. I concentrate on control objects before hand: Pictures of specific family and ask that family to come to me during the reading, especially the really old ones. Some of my family were known to living members who were born way before the civil war. I always do this. And if the medium is genuine, they will not ask you anything, ever. They will tell you that and they will caution you not to say a word. George Anderson is FANATIC about this and so is Laurie Campbell.

Laurie Campbell not only told me sixty specific things that I verified that she could not know but she also told me things I asked my family members to tell specifically. She described the inside of my house and it was perfect to a tee. (My house is very unusual in design because a builder built it for himself and did what he wanted so its not easy to describe if you haven't been there and Laurie never has been here). She also told me about the two things from my father and mother that we agreed upon while they lived: cardinals 'red bird' for Mom and hummingbirds for my dad. She also told me that there were tons of really old (meaning ancient) family around me, something that she has never experienced in thousands of readings of other people. Their names were also told to me, my great and great-great grandparents. All of my controls were met. Mom told me that daddy had met her at her death and a week before that, she had said someone had sat on the bed beside her as she slept, waking her up. I remember her telling me that in passing that week. I know it was my sweet dad waiting for her so he could help her go forward.

It was the same with George Anderson. I also put into my control piece all the pets of my life. They were all there. I had been brooding on my grandmother, my dad's mother that week for no reason and she was the one who came through the longest. She apologized for all she didn't do because she knew it bothered me how she treated my sweet dad and made sure to tell me that she was taking good care of my dad and how much she loved him for himself. Both of my criteria were met again. George told me that my dad was trying to show himself to me and that he was appearing just out of the side of my eyesight. I had been seeing black shapes there and I didn't know that they were anything because my eyes were checked before that and were 100% good. I have seen a shadow man walk along the family room in my house and at another place and it had the shape of my dad. They also know that I have been standing in front of mirrors looking for them, something that sometimes works. They told me to keep trying. No one knew about the mirrors but me. (My great Aunt Vidie was a psychic person and she had a lot of ways, some of which I am emulating to varying degrees of success.) :)

My mother said that dying was so simple it was like 'stepping from one room to the next' and that time means nothing. I also can tell you that dying is as easy as getting out of a chair. She said that time could be seconds or centuries for all they cared. Time means nothing to them. She also said that she knew how hard life was and that they hung with me and my siblings, rather like it was the best entertainment ever and that they couldn't leave me alone because they loved me. Love doesn't end you know? It goes on and on. It is the most dependable part of living. She told me things that only she would know and I would know. Laurie and George, they were on the end of the phone in California and New York. They have never met me and told me in no uncertain terms to say nothing as they talked to me. They never asked me one question. They told me about my parents and details of our life and house that no one could know. Very, very detailed things. It wasn't 'you live in a house' ... it was your house is shaped this way, go around this corner and your livingroom looks like this. Your mom really loved her fireplace and it is shaped like this, very different than most fireplaces and on and on.

I learned that when I feel like turning around and saying something to them that its because they are actually there. Laurie told me this: "Think of your loved ones sitting around the house with a cup of coffee being a part of your day as you go about your business." She said that if you think of them, they hear you and they will come to you. Closure is bullshit. They are not separated from you but for view and therefore you don't need to close anything. They are never gone. George Anderson told me that my dad mentioned how I talk to them incessantly. Especially when they died. I did and do. I talk to them all of the time and daddy mentioned that so I could know they hear me.

I find the pennies they leave all over the house and other places. I hear the toe nails of dogs walking to my room at night when there are no dogs loose in the house because they are in the room with me on the bed. They stop at the door of my bedroom. I felt a wet dog nose on my leg when one of my dogs died and when I looked down there was no dog.

I called Laurie because my mother's little dog which I was taking care of since her death had passed away and there were other things piling up. I had to talk to them. She told me that my mother made a point of showing herself really vigorous and healthy. I had been fixated on her health at the end all that month as her dog was dying of cancer. It happens that way sometimes. You fixate on things and worry them to death. My mother made a point to show Laurie that she was really well and fit. She also showed herself throwing a stick meaning that Robby was with her along with the other dogs and that I had done everything I could do for him. My mother and dad both made a point of saying that if I had not taken care of them they were convinced that they could not have stayed in the house. That was a big deal between us. I promised them they would never end up in a care facility and they never did.

They went into detail about the gardens around my house. The interesting part is, all of those gardens are memorial. I put them in after my parents died to show them my love. My parents are nuts about this house and the grounds. I did a lot of trees and plants for them. They told me about it and the only way they could have was they were there watching me do this. They told me to continue feeding the birds - I have tons of feeders, all added after their death- and to plant this year too and a few things they thought would look nice in this or that planter. Details, my darlings. Lots and lots of details about how things look, where they are and what I've done with them. Only mom and dad could have said all this because I have never met George or Laurie and they have never been to my house.

This whole total thing, that and the fact that most of the people I have come into contact with since taking a part time job have had like experiences and convictions because of it, make me a believer. I am a person who has to be shown and has to have convincing with controlled experiences. I made sure that there was a lot of things that would tell me that what I was getting was true. And it was. There is no way on earth that Laurie and George could have told me the things that they did. They had no idea that moose walk through my yard and that the 'christmas tree in the yard' -a small spruce that I had planted and was always going to be the christmas yard tree was there. She had never seen my house so to detail it and tell me things about my routine-odd things, not usual, very personal and specific- wasn't something that she could do without my parents helping her. They couldn't know that my parents wanted to spend winter away from Alaska and that my mother had a hip replacement that made getting up and down the steps --the steps in front of my house that twist and turn in an unusual way- was too hard. She described me driving a car that took two years to come true. I was driving my Honda Element the other day when it came to me that I was driving a car that Laurie had described three years before. :)

I know there are people who will say bunk. They don't want to believe or they don't know what to believe or not, they haven't had experiences that tell them one way or the other. There are people whose experiences with religion and with God are so poor, they will never believe and many of them are happy to call you a jackass if you have experiences like mine. The don't offer any counter to what I have said or believe, they just mock. Fine with me. I don't care. I know that there is a life beyond this one. I was there. I asked my RN niece and several nurses I have met since if you dream when you are unconscious and I was out cold, gray faced, dilated pupils, the whole thing. They said of course not. I didn't dream that sequence with my mother. I died and went to her. She sent me back. And I will tell you, my dear hearts, there is not a trace of fear about death in my body. Not a strand. Not a titch. I am not afraid of death.

When you lose someone, they are met by family and friends. No one dies alone. No one lives alone. Even at your most lonely moment there is love surrounding you and if you listen and look really hard you will hear and see it. Love is the only thing that never ends.

You don't have to believe me. I don't care if you do. But I know for me that its true, that our consciousness survives death and that there is more to life, gridley, than meets the eye. If you lost someone, talk to them, let them know you are aware of the possibilities that they are still there. There are a lot of people recently that have lost someone on this list. Take heart. They are still here. For those of you that feel a loss, I will put a piece on the end of this post that I have on my frig that gave me a lot of comfort during harder times.

I don't think about a specific religion anymore. I think about God, about his perfect love for me and the greatness of the universe. Religion is a hindrance for me even though I still hold a great love for Jesus and what he tried to teach us. I don't believe any one religion holds the whole truth. They are ways that people have tried to understand the world and find meaning. That some have hijacked it and made a lot of people angry is too bad. Its not the fault of Jesus or God. The wisdom they taught and the love, unconditional love they give is what matters. I know that God loves me and I love him back with all the conviction that I have.

That is what I believe. If you agree, then I am glad to tell you. If you don't, that's alright. Death is the answer to this question and for my part, having already died and come back, its as easy as putting on your shoes.

RV

What Is Death?

Death is nothing at all. I have only slipped away into the next room. I am I and you are you. Whatever we were to each other, that we are still. Call me by my old familiar name. Speak to me in the easy way which you always used. Put no difference in your tone. Wear no forced air of solemnity or sorrow. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together. Play, smile, think of me, pray for me. Let my name be ever the household word that it always was. Let it be spoken without effect, without the trace of a shadow on it. Life means all that it ever meant. It is the same that it ever was. There is absolutely unbroken continuity. Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight? I am waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near, just around the corner. All is well.

Harry Scott Holland
1847-1918
Canon of St. Paul's Cathedral

[Jokinomx]

26. There are two types of people in the world.....

Those who know and those who don't.

I also have zero fear of death. I also know many people are skeptical of some of my own experiences. What a person believes really doesn't matter to me. As long as that belief is a positive one. One that tries to better the world.

My perception is that we shed the body when we die, just as we would take off a jacket. Your body is only a container for your life energy... I say we are all aliens to this planet as we are just Beings of Light experiencing this high density, low vibration part of our Universe. Earth is our school and eventually we even graduate from here. Sometimes it takes us many lifetimes to learn all that we want to learn. But as you said time is irrelevant.

I mentioned in one of my other posts in this thread that I wonder if this is the next step in evolution when it comes to the consciousness of mankind. Where more and more people will start experiencing the connection. In my experience, it seems that those that have had a spiritual experience such as yours, they realize that religion is not necessary. Just the message of Love.

Could this be the "End of Days" in a sense. That humans wake up to the fact that the veil has been lifted? What if a majority of the population, experienced a visit from a Loved one that had passed over. As my wife did (I explain this in another post in this thread). Let's take it a step further, what if we all had an open connection to the other side and we could sometimes see and hear our Loved ones. Do you think we would have all the greed and selfishness that we see currently on the planet. No more deceit. No more lies. We can only hope that this is the way it is... that someday Humankind will live in peace and harmony.

Anyway... Thanks for sharing, I am sure I am not the only one that enjoyed reading about your experiences.

Peace...

[roguevalley]

28. you read my mind, Jokinomx. There is something sweeping the

world right now and it could be just what you and I both hope. Thank you for your experiences too. There are so many of us out here who have had them it gets easier to talk about them to a skeptical world. Take care.

[barbtries]

30. thank you for sharing

i agree with much of what you say. for me love is the ultimate power and the only thing that stands a chance of saving this human race.
after Bekah died i collected the phenomena. there was much. i also found great comfort in an open circle where my daughter, my father, and a long-time friend who had committed suicide "came through." i collect the stories of others as well.

bekah was the turtle and her best friend was the butterfly. i have a turtle tattooed on my wrist which i got 4 months after she was killed. on her 23rd birthday, almost 2 years after her death, a desert tortoise appeared in her brother's back yard. when i went to see it, it walked right up to me as if it had been waiting to see me. this experience gave my son faith he had not had before. the odds of such an occurrence where we lived at the time were simply astronomical.

there is so much more, it would take pages.

it's when we get to the gawd part that our beliefs differ. i simply believe that people made up gawd and not the other way around. however i believe in the power of prayer and find the pre-eminence of nature impossible to deny. tides happen. seasons happen. the sun rises and sets.

experiences such as ours are really more common than people discuss regularly. at the end of the day, whether we believe or not is a decision each person makes for himself or herself. i cannot offer "proof" but my belief is strong though i recognize that it behooves me to believe. i still do.

[Jokinomx]

20. Well .... I don't think the after life has anything to do with religion....

Religion is a man made system of stories.

These stories are mostly fabrications created by humans to give answers to things they don't understand. Also, to control people.

As for reincarnation, I remember a couple of mine... and I have met one other person that remembered some of his. It is not a common thing. However, using a guide to help quiet the mind... I feel just about anyone can learn to recall some of their past lives. I would also encourage you to read "Many Lives, Many Masters" by Dr. Brian L. Weiss and the 3 subsequent books he wrote. He was a Harvard trained psychiatrist and former head of psychiatry at Columbia University. He accidentally helped a patient remember a past life. It started a complete change in how he perceived our existence.

As for near death experiences, there are a few cases that are more than "anecdotal". Some very well documented cases have occurred if you research the subject.

I do also feel that many more people have had connections to the other side than most realize. However they choose not to speak of these experiences publicly. Here is an experience that my wife and I had a few years ago.

-------------

My wife has had a recently deceased friend from childhood visit her while we were on our way home from a trip to a distant city. She calmly said "Susan's here, Susan died! She says everything is good and that she came to say goodbye and that she loved her and thanked her." Personally, I couldn't see or feel anything. We were in our vehicle and I was driving. I told my wife "Well, I guess we will find out when we get home." My wife says she appeared as a white light and had given my wife a hug and disappeared.

When we arrived home, my sister in law was waiting for us in our kitchen. As soon as we looked at her eyes we knew something was not good. My wife said "Susan died didn't she?" My SIL asks "How did you know?" Susan had died the day before. She had lived with her husband and two children in Minnesota. (we live in Michigan)

-------------

That experience had nothing to do with any religious belief system. However, it did confirm to us that there is a lot more to who we are, than what we understand and when someone asks if we believe in the afterlife, we say we don't believe in an afterlife, we know there is one.

peace

[LAGC]

36. Yeah, I realized right after I wrote that...

That I might have offended a broad swath of people (esp. those of Eastern religious traditions) with my usage of the term "kooks" to describe people who believe in reincarnation.

I must admit, it is a compelling alternative to the Paradise or Hellfire, and I definitely find it more plausible than the idea of being judged by an all-powerful deity once we die.

I too had what I might call a "psychic" experience when my Great Aunt died. I was just a child, maybe 10-year-old, sitting on the recliner at home when the phone rang. As soon as my mom answered it, I knew something bad had happened. Before she said "Oh, she did." I knew my Great Aunt had passed away. She was getting old, but we weren't expecting it or anything.

I'm open to the possibility of psychic forces, that when we die we "send a signal" out that loved ones can detect. I don't necessarily think this is supernatural though, and maybe someday scientists might be able to detect it and measure it, a psychic beacon of an expiring life.

[WolverineDG]

25. Perhaps she left out nonbelievers because she thought they didn't read the religion section

way to jump to conclusions, btw, thinking she did it because she thinks you're damned or something. :eyes:

Anyway, my beliefs are based on personal experiences that I & many people I know have had. I don't expect anyone to "believe" in the afterlife just because of my experiences though, because they are personal to me.

dg

[LAGC]

34. Yeah, maybe I assumed too much.

I know the Unitarians are very open to agnostics, atheists, and non-believers, so I don't think they think you are damned if you don't follow any faith.

Maybe she just meant "if you believe in God, you spend eternity with God, but if you don't, you get to spend your after-life away from God in your own little Paradise."

Maybe whatever each person believes happens in the after-life is what really happens, and everyone has their own subjective prediction and results?

[WolverineDG]

35. I've come to believe that regardless of what your religion is (or isn't)

if you follow the tenets, you get whatever reward is promised. Although I am a Christian, I don't believe someone is going to Hell because they're not & I'm far from being the only one who thinks that way. It's why the fundies have got their panties in a twist over the ecumenical movement, where the various religions & denominations work together based on their shared beliefs instead of arguing over the few differences.

dg

[MorningGlow]

39. From what I've learned, it does sort of work like that

To ease each soul into the afterlife, they see what they expect to see--Jesus, Buddha, family members, etc...at first. Then, once the soul is comfortable with the fact that they are on the Other Side, they're gently taught the reality, especially (for Christians) that there is no judgment, no hell, and no punishment. At the most, the soul kind of does a self-evaluation--reviews the life s/he just left and determines what lessons were learned and what could have been done differently. (The movie Defending Your Life was pretty close, except for the trial aspect.) Then the soul can stick around and hang with his/her soul family, or start another life on this plane. (Yeah, I'm one of those reincarnation "kooks". :P )

[intaglio]

31. It ties in with the "Who is a Christian?" debate

Ask people from different mainstream sects and you'll get a variety of answers

Most would exclude the Unification Church (Moonies), fewer would leave out the Mormons. But when you get into the hardcore fundamentalists then you'll find out just how many are consigned to the flames.

Coptic and Orthodox (Russian and Greek) - not Christian they don't even follow the "true" bible.

Maronites - use their own bible, are Syriac and share communion with the Catholic church.

Catholics believe in "Deeds not words" i.e. you have to do good deeds and, do penance for sins. Also are guilty of Mariolatry, being papist and using the "wrong" bible.

Lutherans use their own bible and follow the same "deeds not words" philosophy. Not sure about the Mariolatry (not that interested).

Seventh Day Adventists; don't use Sunday as the holy day, believe in proximity of Judgment day, do not believe in a soul (we will be awoken and restored on Judgment day)

Then there are Jehovah's Witnesses, who like Calvinists believe you are either "saved" (amongst the Elect") or not saved you have no say in the matter. Add in Christian Scientists, Swedenborgians, Calvinist Sects like the Free Church of Scotland (the "Wee Frees"), Pentecostalists, Baptists. The last 2 have an ongoing fights within their own ranks as well as between themselves such as "Once saved, always saved," or not.

The whole thing is a mess ...

[Festivito]

32. What makes you think eternity only happens before and after, and not during life?

Deep inside there is a vision that time is nothing but space, and between every minute and mile there within it, somehow there's a beautiful place....

[Critters2]

55. +1 nt

[demosincebirth]

40. What makes you think that there isn't?

[LAGC]

41. Mainly because of advances in neuroscience.

It's becoming more and more apparent that our minds are totally dependent on our brains.

Once our brains cease functioning, our ability to perceive -- anything -- would seem to cease along with it.

[demosincebirth]

44. We can go on and on, here, but I'll just leave it at that..

[ellie]

42. My dad loved family gatherings

He didn't have a lot to say, but he liked it when we all got together at the house. He died in 1998. A couple of years ago, my brothers and sisters and I were at my mom's for someone's birthday, talking about him and laughing over family stories. Suddenly, the water faucet in the kitchen turned on by itself. There was no one around it. We all looked at each other as if to say, "Do you hear that? Do you see that?" It was trippy, but it was my dad, we all knew it.

[struggle4progress]

45. I distinguish between "faith" and "intellectual assent." The word "believe"

is used in different contexts, with different meanings, but "I believe etc" (in the sense of faith) signifies something entirely different than "I believe etc" (in the sense of intellectual assent). Thus if I were to say "I believe what the Nicene Creed professes," I should be using "believe" in an entirely different sense than if I were to say "I believe what we learn from science."

It is a simple fact of language that words are necessarily ambiguous and must admit multiple meanings. Thus I could say simultaneously and without any contradiction I believe that when I die, I will cease to exist, much as a candle flame ceases to exist when the candle is blown out and also I believe in eternal life -- because I would be using the word "believe" with entirely distinct meanings in those two sentences

My religious faith does not necessarily involve intellectual assent; nor I do automatically hold a religious faith about matters to which I intellectually assent. If I say "I believe in Darwinian evolution," I am not indicating a religious belief; if I say "I believe in the Resurrection of the Dead," I am not indicating an intellectual belief

[LAGC]

46. Okay, so...

How do you reconcile your two versions of belief? Are you saying you simultaneously believe we will cease to exist and yet have eternal life?

I guess if I need to clarify: do you believe our minds and recognizable consciousness will exist in roughly the same configuration after our physical brains die?

And if so, what happens to people with dementia or other brain diseases?

[struggle4progress]

51. I think that is rather like asking how I reconcile various senses of any other word:

how could I possibly use "bar" (say) to mean a metal post in a window, a unit of atmospheric pressure, or the collection of licensed lawyers -- without becoming terribly confused? Of course, confusion would result only if one failed to recognize that different notions were invoked by the same word

As for the rest (for example, Do you believe our minds and recognizable consciousness will exist in roughly the same configuration after our physical brains die?), I cannot make a clear sense of your question. I can observe my own "consciousness" and am quite convinced other people have "consciousness" too, but the "consciousness" of others is not something I directly "recognize" -- it is something I infer, and my experience suggests I am rather bad at "recognizing" the "consciousness" of others and that others are rather bad at "recognizing" my "consciousness." I have no idea what you mean by the "configuration" of "our minds and recognizable consciousness." "Configuration" suggests to me physical arrangement. Of course, "my consciousness" seems to me curiously connected with "my physical body"; there seem to be long-unresolved philosophical questions about that, and I do not really expect to resolve those questions. Perhaps you are headed in directions that do not much interest me

Naturally, I expect that continued medical research will produce better treatments for dementia and other brain diseases, and for reason I am much in favor of medical research

[LAGC]

52. I'm much in favor of continued research towards preventing brain diseases as well.

But I noticed you avoided my question.

What do YOU think happens to people with dementia after they die? Are they magically restored to their coherent state in your idea of after-life?

At what point do our minds separate from our brains?

[struggle4progress]

53. The mind-body problem is a venerable antique: it is a curio in our philosophical shop;

all of us wander past it and express ill-founded opinions after staring gape-mouthed at it for a while

But philosophy cannot teach us any actual facts: the best we can hope from properly-practiced philosophy is to expose our own confusions and to clarify our own thinking. So I have no philosophical opinion on "mind-body problem" -- at most, I could only try to clarify my thinking about the fabric of the issues involved. But if I were to try to explain my current ideas (whether clear or confused) about the "mind-body problem," I should need to write a long and wandering essay that would probably not clarify anything for you

You ask: At what point do our minds separate from our brains? Well, really, how the hell should I know? The question is entirely above my paygrade

I have no real idea whether "mind/consciousness" can be "separated" from "brain." I do have some firm and distinct impressions in this regard: for example, that it is generally not a very good idea to shoot someone else in the head, because (based on reports from other people) I expect my victim would show some (temporary and/or permanent) alterations of consciousness, including the possibility that my victim might completely cease to exhibit any signs of consciousness whatsoever henceforth. As a scientific matter, it seems "mind/consciousness" (inferred from external signs) is closely tied to neural activity; this is often reinforced by my subjective experience, as when I have no memory of a period under general anaesthetic and conclude the chemical briefly extirpated my consciousness, or as when I intend to speak a given sentence but hear myself misspeak and conclude that some portion of my neural network has gone awry. When one is interested in consciousness/thought as a scientific matter, one can only examine physical systems and behaviors, and so (as a scientific matter) it seems the obvious ultimate locus is the brain.

You ask: What do YOU think happens to people with dementia after they die? Well, really, again, how the hell should I know? That question also is entirely above my paygrade. As a technical question, it does not seem to me particularly relevant to my religious faith: I do not think my opinion here matters much. As a philosophical matter, the science cannot resolve much here about mind/consciousness: for example, I can see no scientific way to resolve whether or not boulders carry on very slow conversations with each other, requiring a century or two to utter a word; I have no actual opinion about boulders talking to each other. When people die, they seem to become lost to us, so from an operational point of view I should usually oppose death, as it seems signify the rupture of relationships

I once went to a funeral, and at one point in the service I "saw" the deceased standing with his bereaved family: he casually turned around and waved to me. Now I simply do not believe in ghosts. The sense in which I "saw" him was curious: I wanted to say goodbye to him; for a moment I "saw" him right there, taking up space, while I remained completely aware that he could not possibly be there; and then he was gone. From a scientific point of view, I have no problem regarding this "experience" as a psychological trick that my mind deliberately played upon itself: this "experience" did not convince me intellectually in any way about anything. Nor did the "experience" convince me of any "fact" in any emotional sense. But when I "saw" him wave, my own grief washed away completely: then finally I could clearly see his family standing there, without him

[LAGC]

57. Interesting anecdotal account,

Yeah, our brains can play weird tricks on us sometimes. While I've never seen a "ghost," I have heard things like someone calling my name as I awake from a slumber, even though no one else is in the house -- which I'd verify. Or like the door-bell ringing when no one was there. Of course, it could have just been crafty kids who were quick on their feet playing a prank, or an electrical fault or something, but I've not ruled out freak hallucinations.

I sometimes wonder if we all have a little latent schizophrenia in us, that our eyes and ears play tricks on us sometimes.

[Bad Thoughts]

48. Is it necessary for religious people to believe in an afterlife?

An eternal soul is a problem for Buddhists, not a gift. It's also almost non-existent in Judaism, so much so that the notion of going to Heaven is almost always dismissed. I don't see why you think that religious people must necessarily believe in an eternal paradise for which all must strive.

Conversely, Western systems of thought generally raise the importance of the soul to such a point that it supports such notions as eternal life/afterlife. Socrates and Plato both believed that the soul was durable, pure and capable of elevating itself above its corporeality. Indeed, in some systems, the self is mostly that which thinks, less that which breaths.

[GliderGuider]

50. I'm not sure you would call me religious, however...

I don't believe in an "afterlife" so much as in an "otherlife". I do believe that there is an eternal aspect to "me" (whatever that "me" is) that exists outside space and time, and forms the field within which "me" happens. It's a composite belief based on Zen, Advaita Vedanta and other nondualist teachings.

I don't believe in a classical objectified God. If I have any god-concept at all it's more along the lines of pantheism - to me "god" is the totality of reality (which has both observable and unobservable aspects), and "I" am a fragment of that reality, a fragment that is at the same time the whole of reality itself. A physical analogy would be a fragment of a hologram - it is at the same time a piece of the whole but carries the image of the whole at a lower resolution.

My concept of an "otherlife" was formed when I read "Seth Speaks" as a young atheist. Seth's cosmology resonated for me at a very deep level. The picture Seth paints is that humans are deliberately self-created fragments of much larger multidimensional, non-physical, time-free personalities that choose to come here and co-create this physical reality in order to learn lessons that are only available to physical beings. When we are done here we rejoin our "higher self", taking the lessons we have learned in Earth School with us.

I found this cosmology to be very valuable, as it gave me a framework within which to see the value of "a life well lived". Viewed from this perspective my life has very broad meaning. It has meaning to my physical self here and now, to those I know and love, to the world that will continue after I leave, and to something much larger than myself - I am an intrinsic part of reality as a whole. this view is the perfect anodyne - an antidote to the feelings of separation, isolation, alienation and lack of purpose that plague so many of us.

Regarding the "otherlife" itself, in the last few years I have spoken from time to time with my departed sister and first wife (I think of both of them as part of my "soul family"). My first wife especially seems to be tightly bound up with me and my current partner KM - all three of us knew each other when I was first married 40 years ago, and we believe that my then-wife kept KM and me from joining up before we were ready. I have strong reasons to believe that my KM is my "twin flame" - another fragment of the same higher self. I have spoken during meditation and visions with yet other fragments, including a Spitfire pilot who was killed early in the Battle of Britain, as well as an ancient Andean shaman and a woman who lived in the shaman's village. In a meditation I met another personality who gave me a brief and utterly incomprehensible glimpse into the otherlife. It looked/felt/sounded like the biggest, busiest, noisiest, happiest, most creative kitchen party you can imagine.

I have no way of knowing if this belief is objectively true in any sense, but that's not the point. It's a useful belief to me. It improves my quality of life, and that's all that matters. I know that I have no fear of death or dying, and the most insignificant aspects of my life are now imbued with purpose and meaning. That works for me.

[Critters2]

54. I am religious. I'm not sure there's an afterlife.

One thing does not necessarily lead to the other.

[pink-o]

59. I put more "faith" in the Quantum Physicists...

Our brain power isn't have as fabulous as we humans like to think it is. There's a whole idea of time and string theory that's far beyond my personal capabilities to understand, but basically we cannot detach ourselves from perceiving time as linear. In the universe, time does not move from past to present to future, from before to after. All those who've experienced "visitations" or "ghosts" might've just been seeing energy traces, and who's to say it's after someone is dead? Only in our own limited minds. Who knows?

And that's my point: who really knows? When someone comes to me with conclusive proof that we're all going to the Promised Land if we behave ourselves, that's when I'll give it some serious thought. Until then: I plan to live THIS life in THIS time to its fullest, cuz right now is what I know I really have.

[Deep13]

62. But time IS linear.

I'm curious to know what exactly in quantum physics contradicts that. Entropy increases with time. There is every reason to think that total entropy always increases and never decreases.

[pink-o]

77. My definition of "linear" is how we modern humans keep time. As opposed to

our ancestors and also most of the other species on the planet. They're seasonal or cyclic: minutes, hours, days, months et al don't rule their concept of time.

As for the quantum physicists, they also think outside the box. From wikipedia:






Time in quantum mechanics
See also: quantum mechanics
There is a time parameter in the equations of quantum mechanics. The Schrödinger equation<34> is
Prerequisites
physics
quantum mechanics

One solution can be
.
where is called the time evolution operator, and H is the Hamiltonian.
But the Schrödinger picture shown above is equivalent to the Heisenberg picture, which enjoys a similarity to the Poisson brackets of classical mechanics. The Poisson brackets are superseded by a nonzero commutator, say for observable A, and Hamiltonian H:

This equation denotes an uncertainty relation in quantum physics. For example, with time (the observable A), the energy E (from the Hamiltonian H) gives:

where
ΔE is the uncertainty in energy
ΔT is the uncertainty in time
is Planck's constant
The more precisely one measures the duration of a sequence of events the less precisely one can measure the energy associated with that sequence and vice versa. This equation is different from the standard uncertainty principle because time is not an operator in quantum mechanics.
Corresponding commutator relations also hold for momentum p and position q, which are conjugate variables of each other, along with a corresponding uncertainty principle in momentum and position, similar to the energy and time relation above.
Quantum mechanics explains the properties of the periodic table of the elements. Starting with Otto Stern's and Walter Gerlach's experiment with molecular beams in a magnetic field, Isidor Rabi (1898–1988), was able to modulate the magnetic resonance of the beam. In 1945 Rabi then suggested that this technique be the basis of a clock<35> using the resonant frequency of an atomic beam.
John Cramer is preparing an experiment to determine whether quantum entanglement is also nonlocal in time as it is in space. This can also be stated as 'sending a signal back in time'. Cramer has recently published an update indicating that the final experiment will take more time to prepare.


My point is this: We. Don't. Know. We can't depend on an afterlife, only what we have right now. And my philosophy is we should live each day to its fullest, regardless of what we believe. For agnostics like me, if I think I only have the here and now, I want to learn as much and give my life as much meaning as possible. For those that believe God is waiting at the other end to judge them, they also want to live as I do. And for those who think we come back many times, then they want to get as much right as possible during this go-round so they can reach Nirvana and the astral plane as soon as they can.


So maybe one day we can stop splitting hairs, stop worrying about how we got here, and start enjoying what we have right here right now.

[MellowOne]

60. After you have experienced the supernatural

there is no doubt in your mind afterlife does exist.

I accompanied some missionary friends to Kenya mostly for the adventure of the trip. I had no idea of what I was about to witness. Demon were cast out of people,(I heard the demons talk in unearthly voices eerie!), adults and children were healed of diseases, one little crippled body walked for the first time in his life and other phenomena. I have no doubt God exists, demons exist, heaven exists and so does hell. I now believe they invited me on the trip to forever cast out all my doubt.

God gives us the choice to live and believe however we wish. If you choose Him here, you get to spend eternity with Him, if you don't you get to spend it with the demons.

BTW the book, "28 Minutes in Hell" says that the smell of hell is like the worst landfill odor multiplied by 100.

[Zebedeo]

61. +1

:yourock:

[Deep13]

63. You've been had.

Sorry, but the things you describe have been performed by con artists (priests, shamans, whatever) since the beginning of time and are entirely explicable without resorting to supernature as an explanation. Did you see the demon climb out of a person and walk away? Did you feel this demon with your fingers? If not, you are just assuming. And that's how the dodge works. It relies on the human mind to fill in the blanks with suggestion or preconception.

Even if you just know that the supernatural exists and even if you are right, how does that prove that there is an afterlife? There could be a god that is content to let all the talking monkeys on our speck of rock just rot in the ground. What is so damn special about us that divinity necessarily gives us immortality?

And your conclusion about how a person will spend the afterlife is entirely unsupported. Even if there is an afterlife, why does what we believe matter so much? Is God that petty and vindictive? If so, maybe it is better to take our chances among the demons.

[MellowOne]

64. I saw a demon cast out of me!

A spirit of bitterness. Totally changed who I am.

No, God is not petty and vindictive. Entirely the opposite. When a historical Jesus walked this earth, he preached more about the dangers of hell than about the wonders of heaven. He warned over and over trying to save people from the destiny of hell.

God never intended for man to go to hell. Hell was created by God for the fallen angels, including Lucifer, who rebelled against Him in heaven. They rebelled because of pride, they wanted to be a god, equal to Almighty God. Man only goes to hell because we are considered sinful until we receive the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. In old Isreal, God required a blood sacrifice of animals to cover sin. Sacrifices stopped after the death of Jesus because he was the one perfect sacrifice that covers every sin for everyone who accepts Jesus.

What's so damn special about us? We were created by God, we are his children, he is our father whether you want to be or not. And what's really special is that salvation or going to heaven is a free gift. Free in that you can't earn it, he simply gives you 100% righteousness just for accepting Jesus. He made a very easy way to heaven. He doesn't want his children in hell.

[darkstar3]

65. Is the egocentrism in what you've just posted invisible to you?

[MellowOne]

66. Not al all!

If in reference to God, his ego is enormous. Let me tell you why. He owns it all, the universe, everything, everywhere, the whole enchilada. He does what he wants, when he pleases, without anyone to answer to. Pretty cool, huh?

If in reference to me, that girl ask me if I put my finger on a demon, and I wanted her to know I had an upclose and personal expereince.

[darkstar3]

67. Apparently it is.

since your explanation of what you see as egocentrism in your post widely misses the mark. To clarify:

To believe that we, and we alone, have some special place in the universe due to the fact that this supposed God allegedly created us in his image is sociopathically arrogant, and egocentric to a fault.

[MellowOne]

68. But I do believe

We were created by an almighty God to have a special place in the universe! The sociopathiclly arrogant part is just one mere person who made up the definition because they lack the understanding of God's intented purpose for mankind.

God created us to be his children and have a relationship with Him. It's entirely your choise, He never forces us. He doesn't want robots but wants us to have freewill to enter into a relationship with Him. And He rewards us with eternal life.

[Deep13]

69. I'm glad you had such a positive experience...

...but I think you deserve the credit and not any divine intervention. I do not doubt that experiences such as yours exist. Some people call them spiritual or religious experiences. I am sure the experience is very real and can have profound effects on a person. I just don't see why we assume that they are divine rather than natural.

In point of fact, we were not created at all. Evolution is entirely an unplanned, unintelligent and undirected process. Some think that means we are the result of chance, which is not true. The fact that only changes that enhance survival endure makes it a determinative process. It only seems like it is being directed because we do not see the mountains of failures.

[MellowOne]

70. It is what it is

First, thanks for the sentiment, but I can't wrap the experience up for you, put it in a box, or tie it up in a bow. It is what it is. The problem is trying to define the supernatural or spiritual experiences, you can't. I had nothing to do with it. I was just an observer minding my own business, but God had other plans. There is no way I would or could define what happened as natural.

[BillStein]

71. How do you know

That these demons were a sign from Gd and not a trick by another entity (Lucifer?)? Or is there any possibility that these were the African demi-gods?

I ask this to try to better understand what you are saying, and not in any way disrespectfully.

[MikeH]

72. I have some problems with what you say about the “free gift” of “salvation”

And what's really special is that salvation or going to heaven is a free gift. Free in that you can't earn it, he simply gives you 100% righteousness just for accepting Jesus. He made a very easy way to heaven.

However apparently those who, for whatever reason, miss their chance to “accept Jesus Christ” in this lifetime, or those who simply guess wrong by adhering to a religion other than Christianity, are out of luck and are condemned to hell for all eternity.

And apparently an “unsaved” murder victim is condemned to hell, while if the murderer later “accepts Jesus Christ”, the murderer is let into heaven.

If these things are true, then God is simply an arbitrary and despicable tyrant, and his so-called “gift” of “salvation” is no different from the arbitrary favor of a tyrant.

And even if for myself and for purely selfish reasons, such as for instance fire insurance, or perhaps hope of some kind of glory in the next life, I might want to accept “salvation” for myself by “accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior”, I could never accept having the thought in the back of my mind that OTHERS are condemned to hell for all eternity if for whatever reason they don’t come to “accept Jesus Christ” in this lifetime. And I could never accept the duty and obligation to tell others about Jesus Christ motivated by that concern. That is a tyrannical demand, and I reject such a duty and obligation with all my being.

I don’t see how one can get any joy or enjoyment out of life if one has in the back of one’s mind that others are condemned to hell for all eternity if they don’t “accept Jesus Christ” in this lifetime.

[sudopod]

94. What about people in North Korea? nt

[MikeH]

73. Sounds like you had a very definite life-changing experience

It sounds like you had an experience which has meant a lot to you, and which you consider to be supernatural.

However even if what you say is true, your experience, and your account of it, impose absolutely no obligation on me.

I have had some problems in my life, especially when I was younger. However I am as certain as I am of anything that none of the problems I have had in my life, whether my fault or otherwise, are in any way attributable to any evil supernatural beings. I have been able to understand and deal with my problems quite apart from any reference to anything supernatural.

I was Christian at one time in my life. I had “accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior”. I found that my being a Christian, and my supposedly having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, had been of absolutely no help to me in enabling me to deal with some very painful personal circumstances in my life, or with anything that was a source of pain, frustration, or unhappiness for me.

That being the case, I no longer consider myself to be a Christian. In particular I have absolved myself of any duties and obligations specifically imposed by the Christian faith (as opposed to those incumbent on any good or moral person). I am as certain as I am of anything that this was the right and healthy thing for me to do.

While I do not want to argue with you about the reality of your experience, I will say that I myself have never had any kind of supernatural experience. And I will say that I consider my personal reasons described above for parting company with the Christian faith to be just as real and valid for me as you consider what you regard as your supernatural experience to be real and valid for you.

Incidentally in regard to the OP, I consider the matters of the reality of God, the reality of anything supernatural, and the reality of a life after this present life, to be very much open questions.

I consider myself to be just on the believing side of agnostic, and closest to being a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism">Deist. Deists believe in a God or creator, but among other things do not accept any alleged revelation from God, such as the Bible or the Koran, as actually being such, and I am definitely with them about that.

The Bible was both written and compiled by fallible human beings, and I strongly think that at its very best the Bible exhibits human fallibility and human prejudice, just like anything else that has ever been written. I consider the Bible to be no more infallible than any other book on the planet.

One thing that is very important to me is that my certainties be my own, and not somebody else’s. For myself I have problems accepting the certainties either of an atheist (I have some of my own reasons for that) or those of a fundamentalist Christian.

[MellowOne]

75. I'm just a little 23 year old girl

who had some supernatural experiences, found God and His truths through those experiences and by reading and studying the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible as God's words, I don't know what else to debate you with. I personally know God is real because I had a personal experience with Him like millions of others around the world who feel as I do. Faith in whatever you believe is a very personal thing. I still feel His presence from time to time, feel His love.

I think some of you over analyze things instead of just taking them at face value. It's called faith.

Salvation as a free gift is studied in depth in the book of Romans in the Bible.

[MikeH]

76. Sounds like you feel we should accept things without thinking

Faith in whatever you believe is a very personal thing.

Certainly. And very subjective, too.

I happen to have had some different experiences from what you have had. In particular I have not ever had any experience which could be considered to be supernatural. I don't think that that in itself is either good or bad.

I have made some of my own decisions based on my personal experiences just like you have made your own decisions based on your personal experiences. And I think that my decisions are just as right and valid for me as you think that your decisions are right and valid for you.

I think some of you over analyze things instead of just taking them at face value. It's called faith.

Right.:sarcasm: Don't analyze. Don't think. Don't use one's reason or one's critical facilities (even if they are gifts given to us by God). Ignore any misgivings or any uneasy feelings or any problems or potential problems. Disregard anything that one is not entirely happy with.


To someone resisting a high-pressured sales pitch, and has serious second thoughts about whether something is what one really wants or really needs, or how reliable it is, and whether one can afford it, and whether one will really be happy with it.

Hey, you want this. You know you do. And you need it. Don't be so analytical. Some of you people just over analyze things. Hey, you really want this. Just give in to the fact that you really want this.


To a young girl resisting an unwanted sexual advance from a horny boyfriend: Hey you want to do it. Sure you do. Don't be so over analytical. Just do it. Your really want to. You know you do. Just give in. Just live for today.


To a German in the 1930's: Hey, Hitler is really doing great things for our country. He is restoring Germany to its greatness. He is making Germany a great country again. And he is putting people back to work.

Don't be so analytical. What's happening in places like Dachau is nothing. And don't worry about what is happening to the Jews. They are not real Germans.

Hey, get with it. Hitler is doing great things. Hitler is great.

[MellowOne]

78. If you really want answers to your many questions

Simply read and study the Bible for yourself. Whatever I say is continually questioned or disputed so why would you want answers from me?

[MikeH]

79. Your responses to me have been non sequiturs

Your responses to me have not really had anything to do with what I have said in my posts.

And yes I have read and studied the Bible at various times in my life (I am 60 years old). And I have come to some of my own answers, as I have said in my posts. My answers simply happen to be different from your answers.

You are very conceited if you think that you are so important that I really want or care at all about any answers from you.

[MellowOne]

80. So why do you keep asking me questions?

If you don't like what I have to say. Makes no sense.

[MikeH]

84. Your responses to me make no sense

:crazy:

[cleanhippie]

82. That is such a cop-out answer.

Many of us HAVE read and studied the bible, only to conclude that it is a bunch of nonsense, which is very different from what you have concluded.

You chose to join this conversation, and as soon as the questions start to get difficult and uncomfortable for you, you resort to a cop-out.

[MikeH]

85. +1

Well said.

Thanks, cleanhippie.:)

[MellowOne]

88. Not a cop-out

Just no point in discussing any furter. You and that other guy have your minds made up to what you believe and everything I say is wrong in your opinion. And don't put words in my mouth, you have no idea when I feel uncomfortable or things are difficult. If I choose not to continue a conversation that is my choice just as it is your choice to not to believe God's word.

[cleanhippie]

89. And there it is, the condescending attitude and attempt to deflect by accusing someone

of "not believing gods word."

That too, is a cop-out, as its usually the last thing a fundie spews when their arguments no longer hold water and become a parody of themselves.



Epic. Fail.

[MellowOne]

91. Same type of thing

the accusations, cheap shots and name-calling that Jesus had to put up with when He was trying to save the world. (I'm not trying to save you BTW) To the point that they hung Him on a cross to die. (Thank God this is the internet and you can't get me! YIKES!)

[darkstar3]

92. Tell me you didn't just compare yourself to Jesus.

[MikeH]

93. As regarding Jesus in what you say in your post

I remember reading somewhere that somebody said that three people were crucified that day, and two of them deserved it.

Not necessarily that anybody deserved a horrible punishment as crucifixion. But certainly something to think about for anybody who takes any smug satisfaction at being vilified, or "persecuted".

[MikeH]

90. You are right about one thing

Just no point in discussing any furter (sic).

It is no good discussing anything with somebody who is as full of herself, and as touchy and as quick to take umbrage at anybody who does not fully agree with everything you say, as you are.

[MikeH]

97. So you seem to think I am a "bad person" because I "choose not to believe God's word"

You seem to be very smug certain in thinking you are right because you have chosen to believe that the Bible is the "infallible" and "inerrant" "Word of God", and that anybody who "chooses" not to believe that is automatically wrong and does not have anything to say that is worth listening to or taking seriously.

I don't think there is much difference between a fundamentalist Christian who has decided to believe that the Bible is the absolute and infallible and inerrant "Word of God" and to be accepted as such without question, and a German in the 1930's who has decided to unquestioningly submit to whatever Hitler says as being true and to pledge loyalty to him as absolute ruler of Germany, and to do whatever he says without question. A lot of people who went along with Hitler were "good" people, and many were Christians.

I think it is very important, and absolutely essential, to use our critical facilities, and to question any authority as being absolute, whether the Bible, the Pope, Hitler, or Karl Marx or the Communist Party.

As Voltaire said, as long as people believe absurdities, they will continue to commit atrocities.

[cags]

86. Its not a "free gift" Its an ultimatum. My way or burning hell fire.

[cleanhippie]

83. So, because you experienced something you cannot immediately understand or explain, you call it

"supernatural", and attribute it to a god.


Such a shame, that a young 23-year old mind is going to waste like that. If god you believe in gave you the ability to question, use logic and apply reason, why do you choose to ignore those tools?

[cags]

81. My experiences with the "afterlife" are the very reason I was able to let go of my faith.

I absolutely believe in the afterlife because I have experienced it and know others who have as well. I no longer believe in any religious faith because of those experiences, and I used to be a card carrying bible thumper, who would knock on your door trying to save your soul.

Religion and what comes after death are two totally seperate things and there is no religion on this planet that has ever come close to being able to explain what comes after death.

Religion does not have the answers and I truly believe it actually gets in the way of real truth.

[MikeH]

87. +1

Thanks for sharing.:)

I am glad for you that you have had your experience.

I myself have never had any such experience so it is still an open question for me about the reality of the afterlife.

I have had my own reasons for being unhappy with Christianity, and am happy about no longer being a Christian.

Religion and what comes after death are two totally separate things and there is no religion on this planet that has ever come close to being able to explain what comes after death.

Religion does not have the answers and I truly believe it actually gets in the way of real truth.

I would fully agree with that. In particular I would agree that this is true about "revealed" religions, such as Christianity and Islam, in which it is alleged that some book like the Bible or the Koran is the "Word of God" or the revelation from God or Allah.

I would consider myself to be a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism">Deist. Deists believe in God but, among other things, do not accept any alleged revelation from God, such as the Bible or the Koran, to actually be such.

[quaker bill]

95. As a Christian Quaker

I have no clue and no concern about an afterlife. Friends do what they feel called on to do today and figure whatever that is will sort itself out in due time. We always have. It is not an essential part of Christian faith. It is true, however, that many think so. I cannot speak for them.

[hartandsoul]

96. Right before my grandfather died

Several relatives were in the room with him, and he ask someone please turn up the music. We all looked around at each as there was not any music in the room, in fact, it was dead silent. He kept saying he heard the most beautiful music and wanted us to turn it up so he could hear it. He died a few minutes later. I have no doubt that he heard music from heaven.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Meshuga]

99. I personally do not believe in an afterlife but...

I can see someone believing in an afterlife not because of evidence but because they were programmed/taught to believe this since birth. In other words, I don't think the "faith" answer is a cop out. The answer can be "faith" because they were made to believe this way as part of their background that molded who they are. In the same way that people of different beliefs and non-belief build their values through life.

And sometimes the belief in an afterlife is a tool for comfort. In the same way that a person may put on a lucky jersey before a soccer (football) match so his/her favorite team will win the big game and then be able to step back and realize how silly doing that really is. But something from his/her upbringing and/or culture drives the person to believe in it and use the superstition/belief as a tool for comfort.