Why Evangelicals Hate Jesus

[somone]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-zuckerman/why-evangelicals-hate-jes_b_830237.html

Why Evangelicals Hate Jesus
Phil Zuckerman

The results from a recent poll published by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/Tea-Party-and-Religion.aspx) reveal what social scientists have known for a long time: White Evangelical Christians are the group least likely to support politicians or policies that reflect the actual teachings of Jesus. It is perhaps one of the strangest, most dumb-founding ironies in contemporary American culture. Evangelical Christians, who most fiercely proclaim to have a personal relationship with Christ, who most confidently declare their belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, who go to church on a regular basis, pray daily, listen to Christian music, and place God and His Only Begotten Son at the center of their lives, are simultaneously the very people most likely to reject his teachings and despise his radical message.

Jesus unambiguously preached mercy and forgiveness. These are supposed to be cardinal virtues of the Christian faith. And yet Evangelicals are the most supportive of the death penalty, draconian sentencing, punitive punishment over rehabilitation, and the governmental use of torture. Jesus exhorted humans to be loving, peaceful, and non-violent. And yet Evangelicals are the group of Americans most supportive of easy-access weaponry, little-to-no regulation of handgun and semi-automatic gun ownership, not to mention the violent military invasion of various countries around the world. Jesus was very clear that the pursuit of wealth was inimical to the Kingdom of God, that the rich are to be condemned, and that to be a follower of Him means to give one's money to the poor. And yet Evangelicals are the most supportive of corporate greed and capitalistic excess, and they are the most opposed to institutional help for the nation's poor -- especially poor children. They hate anything that smacks of "socialism," even though that is essentially what their Savior preached. They despise food stamp programs, subsidies for schools, hospitals, job training -- anything that might dare to help out those in need. Even though helping out those in need was exactly what Jesus urged humans to do. In short, Evangelicals are that segment of America which is the most pro-militaristic, pro-gun, and pro-corporate, while simultaneously claiming to be most ardent lovers of the Prince of Peace.

What's the deal?

Before attempting an answer, allow a quick clarification. Evangelicals don't exactly hate Jesus -- as we've provocatively asserted in the title of this piece. They do love him dearly. But not because of what he tried to teach humanity. Rather, Evangelicals love Jesus for what he does for them. Through his magical grace, and by shedding his precious blood, Jesus saves Evangelicals from everlasting torture in hell, and guarantees them a premium, luxury villa in heaven. For this, and this only, they love him. They can't stop thanking him. And yet, as for Jesus himself -- his core values of peace, his core teachings of social justice, his core commandments of goodwill -- most Evangelicals seem to have nothing but disdain...

[baldguy]

1. The fact that they overwhelmingly vote Republican should tell you that.

[Taverner]

2. Evangelicals do not follow Christ. Instead, its Paul , Luther, Calvin and Aimee Semple McPherson

Seriously

[Adsos Letter]

20. Speaking of Sister Aimee...a great recent work on her association with the

association with the emergence of 20th century evangelicalism and the Religious Right:

Aimee Semple McPherson and the Resurrection of Christian America by Matthew Avery Sutton (2007)
http://www.amazon.com/Semple-McPherson-Resurrection-Christian-America/dp/0674032535/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299484703&sr=8-1#_

I just received a copy, and am enjoying it immensely.

[Taverner]

24. She basically invented the televangelist, the megachurch...

And she found a way to encapsulate the drama that goes on in tent preaching and bring it to radio.

Her version of salvation also became the yardstick by which Evangelicals measure salvation

[Boswell]

3. A) most of them have never read the bible

B) most of the sects and "churches" spoken of here are of the "revealed text" variety. the "pastor" picks and chooses passages that meet his needs and dismisses the rest. anyone who chooses different passages is a non-believer and therefore no loner human.
C) if they DID read the bible completely they would be shocked at the beastiality, incest, murder and just plain mean that is considered "holy"

[regnaD kciN]

5. Not all of the Bible, true...

Most of them only get spoon-fed selected passages, which are only looked at through the tunnel-vision of "our salvation."

Plus, their insistence on "the Bible alone" means that they actively disregard all the theology that has developed over the past two millenia by their fellow Christian thinkers, usually rejecting it as "Roman corruption of the faith." Yet, these same "Bible alone" folks have no problem swallowing whole whatever their pastor tells them is in the Bible. Go figure. :shrug:

[regnaD kciN]

4. Good call...

As a non-evangelical Christian, what has bothered me most about the way American evangelical Christianity has developed over the last few decades is its reliance on "substitutionary atonement" theology, the notion that (as I put it), God the Father and Jesus have a "good cop, bad cop" act, wherein the Father is ready to send everyone to Hell for the sin of Adam and Eve, and Jesus only manages to appease the Father by going down to Earth and experiencing everything the Father demands humans suffer in our place. Only then, according to this theology, can the Father forgive humankind.

Not only is substitutionary atonement spectacularly-bad theology (as Madeleine L'Engle pointed out, it essentially means that Jesus died to save us from God the Father), but a byproduct is that who Jesus is and what he taught really have little relevance; as a sort of divine "Get Out Of Hell Free" card, Jesus's only importance is in his death. He, strictly speaking, could have done nothing at all, except to die for us. Therefore, it becomes easy to disregard his life and only put "faith" in the notion that he "saved" you.

Evangelical Christians have a bumpersticker that reads "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." While I initially found it rather funny, I now find myself very much bothered by it; because it reflects that same "Get Out Of Hell Free" mentality that says that Jesus's death should be honored, but his life and teachings really are secondary. Of course, if you want to be a True (i.e. conservative) American and a Christian, perhaps that mindset is the only one possible, as it is the only one that allows you to hold two contradictory sets of beliefs together.

[Casandra]

6. Well said

Thanks for asking this question, much better than I could have. I have for eons been trying to get some answers on this subject. Beyond the obvious which you stated, I see all this current abortion kerfluffling going full steam ahead. I have to ask myself, who is pushing this antiquated rhetoric. The answer to that question happens to be the same people we are discussing here; the Evangelicals again.

One thing I would like to know... How can there be such a riff over abortion, saving children, proteting children etc..etc... when it's Ok (or so it sure seems) to bomb the hell out of their countries. Therefore, pregnant women, new borns, children of all ages are killed. Where is that ok?.. in what Bible?... For those not yet pregnant and who survive the bombs, what about the birth defects currently affecting the pregnancies of the women; the fear that is palpable of having children that will be deformed or disease ridden, due to the bomb materials having devasted the soil, the air and the water..that we leave laying around. I guess the children of the U.S. are different that the other children. This is so tragic, when I read about this, it wrenches my heart. Can you spell..H..Y...P..O..C...R...I...T...E..?

[Liberal Veteran]

7. "Jesus? Sounds like some Mexican name!"

Now, Paul....there's a good 'murkin name!

[safeinOhio]

8. They know all of

loopholes.

[The Magistrate]

9. An Excellent Article, Sir: Thank You For Sharing It

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

10. And Jesus said " forgive them they know naught what they do".

How true.

[aquart]

12. He also said Matthew 25:41-46

Which is more specific.

[xchrom]

11. Recommend

[Skip_In_Boulder]

13. Here is their version of Jesus

WWJD - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V9kSz7OfJQ

[spin]

14. Support for the ownership of firearms has little to do with religion ...

I know plenty of atheists, agnostics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Catholics and members of other mainstream churches as well as people of the Jewish faith and Muslims who own firearms. In fact I know several Wiccans who have concealed carry permits.

Believe it or not I also know other Democrats who own firearms and believe in the Second Amendment.

While the story of Jesus is that of a peace loving individual I could point out what Jesus said to his disciples according to Luke 22:36 ...

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

A sword was the handgun of its day.

Having said that it should also be pointed out that there is very little religious literacy in this nation today. Few people have ever read the Bible but instead rely on the interpretation and guidance of preachers who often have their own prejudices. It's not surprising that they are unfamiliar with the lessons taught by Jesus in the New Testament.

[Angry Dragon]

15. Jesus was a liberal

[Skip_In_Boulder]

16. Evangelicals don't exactly hate Jesus

"They do love him dearly. But not because of what he tried to teach humanity. Rather, Evangelicals love Jesus for what he does for them. Through his magical grace, and by shedding his precious blood, Jesus saves Evangelicals from everlasting torture in hell, and guarantees them a premium, luxury villa in heaven."

In other words it's about what's in it for them. Also know as egocentricity.

[bengalherder]

17. "Rather, Evangelicals love Jesus for what he does for them

Through his magical grace, and by shedding his precious blood, Jesus saves Evangelicals from everlasting torture in hell, and guarantees them a premium, luxury villa in heaven. For this, and this only, they love him."

For those who haven't seen it check out a documentary by Diane Keaton called "Heaven". It was a big deal and up for all sorts of awards when it was released, but it is now relatively obscure.

The sheer materialistic greed of many of the people ruminating about the vision of their "heaven" is staggering. Everyone has their own mansions made of pearls, jems and gold, and Jesus comes to dinner every night at THEIR house. I think I found it humourous the first time I saw it years ago, but last time I saw it in the last decade it seemed much more sinister.

[madrchsod]

18. no surprise,i have known that for years......

[dimbear]

19. Good grief. Astonishing.

"Jesus unambiguously preached mercy and forgiveness."

Come on! Remember the Parable of the Wicked Tenants? After the final offense by the folks who had stolen the vineyard, what did the owner do? He sent soldiers and had them killed.

Now we usually consider that the most important parables are those that occur the most often, as being central. The Parable of the Wicked Tenants occurs...........three times. And what it is about? Revenge. Revenge on whom? Usually interpreted as the Jewish leaders of the time, sometimes all Jews, you choose.

But let us read on a bit in St. Matthew. This follows the formula about the stone that the builders rejected.
(21:44)

And whosoever shall fall on this stone<....keep in mind that stone is Jesus Himself.......> shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.

Mercy?

In the so called Great Commission, Jesus tells His disciples the fate of any cities which will not receive them.
It will be worse for them than the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. The whole cities to be destroyed because perhaps one or two of their citizens were rude. Mercy?

Consider the Parable of the Talent. Does or does not the king end his story by saying "Bring those before me who opposed my kingship and slay them.?" It does in my Bible.

I'm perfectly aware that what's in the NT isn't by any means what Jesus said or meant. We only know what others want us to know, what someone said someone else said, at best. Nevertheless it's just not right to ignore the parts that don't please.

Verses like these, which are multiply attested, are considered to be more likely original than singly attested verses. Something like "Father forgive them...." isn't very likely to be historical in the sense that it was actually said. Nothing said on the cross is likely historical, given the complete inconsistency of the Passion narratives in the gospels. Parables, especially multiply attested, are very likely to go back to the historical Jesus.

[trotsky]

21. What utter bullshit.

"White Evangelical Christians are the group least likely to support politicians or policies that reflect the actual teachings of Jesus."

Can someone please tell us what *exactly* are the "actual teachings of Jesus"? You see, THAT'S the whole problem here. Christians have been fighting over what Jesus said since Day 1. And as absolutely certain as the right-wing nutjobs are about what the "inerrant" bible really says, so too are countless liberal Christians like the author of this piece who are just as ABSOLUTELY SURE that Jesus approves of THEIR political philosophy and woe unto anyone to tries to argue otherwise. Just like the fundies.

They are more alike than different - and religion just fucks everything up. Political reasoning should come from just that: reasoning.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. Jesus allegedly said LOTS of hateful stuff. You are right.

"I come not in peace, but with a sword" is only the beginning.

He was in favor of condemning people to hell that didn't like his preaching, the mass murders by God in the Old Testament, and lots of other evil and cruel things.

Christians always ignore that stuff because it's inconvenient.

We don't know if Jesus existed anyway. There are no contemporaneous accounts of his life.

I'm dangerous. I took courses in religion at a very good Presbyterian university where the religion faculty had mostly gone to Princeton and Harvard. And I've been told that it was "WRONG" for me to take courses in the Bible! The ass who told me this got offended when I told him that the Bible was a hodgepodge document edited at the Council of Nicaea for Constantine's political purposes, and translated through four or five languages.



Cruelty from only ONE of the Gospels:

Matthew


Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

"The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46


==============

More idiotic stuff from Matthew:

Matthew


The gospel of Matthew begins with a boring genealogy like that we are told to avoid in 1 Tim.1:4 ("Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies") and Tit.3:9 ("Avoid foolish questions and genealogies"). 1:1-17

Judah "went in unto" his daughter-in-law, Tamar, who was disguised as a prostitute. She conceived and bore Pharez, an ancestor of Jesus. (Gen.38:2-29) 1:3

There are 29 generations listed from David to Jesus in Matthew's genealogy, while Luke's (3:23-31) has 43. Except for David at one end and Jesus at the other, there are only three names in the two lists that are the same. 1:6-16

John has a good point in v.14. If Jesus is the sinless Son of God, then shouldn't Jesus be baptizing John instead of the reverse? Isn't baptism supposed to forgive sins and be a sign of repentance? If so, then why would Jesus need to be baptized? And what the heck is "it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness" supposed to mean? 3:14-15

The Son of God is led by the Spirit of God to be tempted by the devil. 4:1

Jesus forbids the taking of any kind of oath. Yet Christians in courtrooms throughout the United States place their right hand on the Bible swear to tell the truth. 5:34-37

Don't defend yourself in court. 5:40

"But if thine eye be evil...." There's nothing worse than an evil eye. 6:23

"Behold the fowls of the air...." Jesus says that God feeds them. But, if so, he does one hell of a lousy job at it. Most birds die before leaving the nest, and the few who manage to fly soon die painful deaths of starvation, predation, or disease. If God is caring for them, pray that he stays away from you. 6:26

Ask, and it shall be given you."
Mark Twain said there are "upwards of a thousand lies" in the Bible. But this is probably the biggest. How many desperate, frightened, broken-hearted parents have watched their children die while begging God to help? 7:7-8

The devils confess that Jesus is the Son of God. According to 1 Jn.4:15 ("Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God"), then, God dwells in the devils and the devils in God. 8:29

After Jesus kills the herd of pigs by sending devils into them, the "whole city" asks him to leave. I don't blame them. 8:34

"Thy faith hath made thee whole."
If you have enough faith, you will never get sick.
(Illness is caused by sin and lack of faith. Medical science is unnecessary.) 9:22

Jesus gives his disciples "power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness." 10:1

Jesus tells his disciples to perform all the usual tricks: "heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils." 10:8

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

God is involved in the death of every sparrow. He sees to it that they each die painful deaths of starvation, predation, or disease. But don't worry. God will do the same for you. (He thinks that humans are worth much more than sparrows.) 10:29. 31

"Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." According to the gospels (Mt.26:69-75, Mk.14:66-72, Lk.22:55-62, Jn.15:18-27), Peter denied Jesus three times before men. Therefore Jesus must have denied Peter before God. 10:33

John the Baptist is still not sure about Jesus (he's in prison and is soon to die). He sends his disciples to ask, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" Well, if he isn't sure after seeing and hearing the events at Jesus' baptism, then how can anyone else be? 11:3

John the Baptist was the greatest man ever to live (even greater than Jesus), but "he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." 11:11

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now...." Until when? (John the Baptist was still alive when this verse was supposedly uttered.) Jesus continues to bewilder his poor disciples by saying, "The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." 11:12

Jesus believed in the literal truth of the fish story in Jonah. 12:40

Jesus predicts that he will be "in the heart of the earth" for three days and three nights. If by this he meant that he would be in the tomb for three days and three nights, then either he was mistaken or the gospels are in error. Because according to the gospels (this is one of the few things they all seem to agree on), Jesus was in the tomb for only one day and two nights. 12:40

When an unclean spirit (whatever that may be) leaves a person's body, he goes out to find another. Not finding any, he comes back with seven other spirits more wicked than himself and repossesses the person. 12:43-45

Jesus is rejected by those who know him the best -- the people of his home town of Nazareth. 13:55-57

Herod thought Jesus was a resurrected John the Baptist. Apparently, it was a common opinion at the time (See Mt.16.13-14, Mk.6:14-15, 8:27-28, Lk.9:7-8, 18-19). If so many of Jesus' contemporaries could be so easily fooled regarding John the Baptist, what does this do to the credibility of Jesus' resurrection? 14:1-2

"Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea."
Jesus and Peter walk on water. You can too, if you have more than a little faith. 14:25

The disciples wonder where they will get the bread to feed four thousand. But they should know by now, since Jesus just did the same trick in 14:14-21. These stories are probably the result of two oral versions of the same fictitious story. 15:33

Opinions were divided regarding the identity of Jesus, but many thought that he was the risen John the Baptist. The fact that people could be so easily fooled regarding the Baptist's "resurrection" casts doubt on the resurrection of Jesus. 16:14

When Peter expressed his dismay when Jesus announced his coming death, Jesus said to him "Get thee behind me, Satan" -- a fine way to address his holiness, the first pope! 16:23

"Whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
If you want to stay alive, you must lose your life (kill yourself?) for Jesus' sake. 16:25

"Behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud .. said" 17:5

"And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face." 17:6

Jesus says that Elijah, whom he believes is John the Baptist, will come and "restore all things." But what things did John the Baptist restore? 17:11

If your faith is great enough, you can move mountains around. 17:20

Jesus tells Peter to pay his taxes with a coin that he'll find in the mouth of the first fish that he catches from the sea. 17:27

"There be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Dangerous words from a guy who recommends cutting of body parts if they cause you to sin (Mt.5:29-30, Mt.18:8-9, Mk.9:43-48). It might make someone castrate himself so that he could be one of the 144,000 male virgins, who alone will make it to heaven (Rev.14:3-4). 19:12

Jesus lists the "ten commandments," but his list has only six, and the sixth is not one of the ten. The commandments given by Jesus are secular, not religious, in nature. 19:18

Rich people don't go to heaven. For as Jesus says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 19:23

Jesus tells his apostles, "ye shall sit upon the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." I wonder which tribe Judas is judging? 19:28

Matthew has Jesus ride into Jerusalem sitting on both an ass and a colt (must have taken some practice!). 21:2-7

Jesus curses a fig tree and the tree dies immediately (showing the world how much God Hates Figs). But in Mark's gospel (11:14, 20-21) the cursed fig tree doesn't die until the next morning. 21:19-20

If your faith is great enough, you can not only kill fig trees but move mountains around, too. Whatever you ask for you will receive. (O Lord, won't ya buy me a Mercedes-Benz?) 21:21-22

"What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ... Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes."
The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes. 24:3, 7

If you see the abomination of desolation in the holy place, try to understand. God is trying to say something. 24:15

"Let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains." Why? Can't God find and kill them there, too? 24:16

Jesus says there will be "false Christs" that will "show great signs and wonders." Well, Jesus himself according to Acts 2:22 fits this description. 24:24

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 26:26-28

"I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
WooHoo! There will be wine to drink in heaven. 26:29

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face." 26:39

The phrase "unto this day" shows that the gospel of Matthew was written long after the events it describes. 27:8, 28:15

When Jesus died, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints" arose. But they stayed in their graves until Jesus rose from the dead, when they began to walk around, appearing to many in Jerusalem. 27:53-54

"And behold, there was a great earthquake." 28:2

"He is risen."
Jesus came back to life after being dead for a while. 28:6

Even some of Jesus' apostles doubted that the allegedly risen Christ was really Jesus. Well if they weren't sure, how could we ever be? 28:17
===========================

Millions of people think this book is a good moral guide??? :banghead:

[ThoughtCriminal]

22. They're Paulists, not Christians

Paul, who never met Jesus, stole Christianity and radically changed it's focus from the teachings of Jesus.

Go to any conservative evangelical church and listen to a service. Count the number of times Paul is quoted. Count the number of times Jesus is quoted. Typically, I would guess it will be about 100 to 0.

[trotsky]

23. Every Christian is a Paulist.

If it weren't for Paul, your religion would be a historical footnote, if that.

[Deep13]

27. Agreed, the Epistles are as canonical as anything else in the NT...

...and more authentic since they really are letters and not a hodgepodge fabrication like the gospels.

[dimbear]

31. OTOH, several of the Pauline epistles are forgeries.

Timothy, Titus, and so on. One of course speaks in likelihoods, as always in such matters.

[Deep13]

33. I haven't heard that before. How do you know? nt

[dimbear]

35. Textual criticism. It has been understood since the 19th century,

for instance, the the Letter to the Hebrews was not by Paul. It differs too radically in style, vocabulary, and theology from the supposedly unquestioned letters that even that long ago and in truth long before that it was recognized as a forgery.

Modern scholars assign them about 50/50 but don't agree which are which. :) It's very safe to assume Timothy, Titus, Hebrews are not authentic but that Romans, Colossians, and so on are.

A classic text that explains all this sort of thing is known by the one word "Streeter." Its actual name is "The Four Gospels: .........."

http://www.katapi.org.uk/4Gospels/master.html?http://www.katapi.org.uk/4Gospels/Ch15.htm

It takes some doing to download it, but it's worth the hassle.

B H Streeter, if I recall. Quite the respected scholar. He also wrote another book just on Paul. I haven't read that one.

[ThoughtCriminal]

28. There are major differences in dogma

Between say a "Red Letter Christian" and "Paulists". The Paulists had simply hijacked Jesus and taken the the name "Christians".

They won, and we'll never know if the followers of Jesus would have had a significant place in history.

[trotsky]

29. SPLITTERS!!!!

[dimbear]

30. I doubt it's more than 99.9%. Modern day Gnostic revivalists

aren't Paulists, and depending on whether or nay you consider the Mandaeans Christians, there's some more. :)

[onager]

32. Paul and Constantine

Who idiotically thought that, by making Xianity the single religion of his empire, he would put an end to religious strife.

Because, as you wrote above: Christians have been fighting over what Jesus said since Day 1.

What Constantine got was a running war fought for decades over "the nature of Christ." The primary battleground was the streets of Alexandria, Egypt, where the con artist turned clergyman, Athanasius, hired gangs of thugs to stomp the followers of his religious rival, Arius.

(Yeah, I know - "con artist turned clergyman" is almost redundant.)

Even after Constantine declared Arianism heretical, he still dithered and asked Athanasius to try and find some common ground with the Arians.

Fat chance. According to one story, when Athanasius heard that Arius had finally died, he publicly danced a jig in the streets of Alexandria.

The whole "nature of Christ" brouhaha became a severely moot point in the 7th century, when a new god moved into Egypt...accompanied, as usual, by his heavily-armed believers. No more of this baffling nonsense about one god really being three gods, and whether Jesus was or was not part of god. The followers of this new deity insisted that there really was just one god. And his name was Allah.

Read the whole story in Charles Freeman's The Closing of the Western Mind: The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason. Or the fantastic Alexandria: A History and a Guide by E.M. Forster.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[Deep13]

26. In short, he's a communist. nt

[Solomon]

34. The answer to the question is there are two Jesus's

The first one died to save them from their sins. He was nice to everybody. Willing to listen, etc.

But when he comes back, (the second one) he will be entirely different. You know, sword in mouth, separating the wheat from the chaff, burning up the sinners and casting them into the eternal lake of fire and all that. A rather mean sounding person, don't you think. This is the guy they identify with. Of course, since everyone else is the sinners, and not them, they feel all to at home condemning other people.

And there you are. Question answered.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

38. There are two different Jesuses in the gospels.

The nice guy and the hateful guy, as I stated above.


Christians always ignore the hateful stuff that Jesus said. Of course we don't even know if he existed or not.

He could be a fictional god like Mithra, Apollo, and Osiris. He has all the same characteristics that they do...born of a virgin on December 25th, wise men came to him with gifts, astronomical events at his birth, performed miracles, etc.

[Bad Thoughts]

37. Evangelical Christians are the ultimate moochers

They want the "grace of God", but aren't willing to share it. They want to receive, not give. It is a viewpoint that colors how they look at all aspects of social work, demanding they get theirs rather than looking at the whole of society. It's why they'll take their checks from the government for SS, Medicare, farm subsidies, oil exploration, etc., but stand outside the Capitol with teabags on their hats.