"pain offers us a lesson in gods love"

[pokerfan]

Honestly, do religious people find this comforting? A family member (who knowing me really should know better) sent this to me this morning.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/mar/19/pain-offers-us-a-lesson-in-gods-love

In short from the article:
• God is in control; depend on him.
• Pain is a proving ground.
• God uses pain to show us our sin.

I love how the author just brushes away the problem of evil. And what fucking sin is a baby guilty of? Oh right, I forgot, original sin. I'm sorry but this philosophy just makes me ill. Me? I've always liked the way Epicurus broke it down:

• Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
• Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
• Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
• Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[Brickbat]

1. It's pretty much the main reason I always had a huge problem with Mother Teresa.

Her deification for suffering was almost cult-like and I found it extremely offensive.

[MineralMan]

6. Religions are just cults grown large.

Or so it appears to me.

[Angry Dragon]

2. +1000

[ZombieHorde]

3. Holy shit. Critical thinking skills should be taught in grade schools. nt

[Donnachaidh]

4. exactly why martyrs are so revered in the Catholic Church

of course, no mention of the sadistic nuns....

[Iggo]

5. Pain is Love?

Yeah, that shit don't fly at my house.

I teach my girls different.

[Mojambo]

7. "I only hurt you cause I love you, baby." n/t

[pokerfan]

8. Gotta get out of abusive relationships (nt)

[old mark]

9. Oh, PAIN!...I thought youu wrote PALIN!....Sorry...

"Pain is just God's way of hurting us." Firesign Theatre...

I stopped believing the myths in (Catholic) grade school.


mark

[LeftishBrit]

10. Well, Palin is very much a pain!

[old mark]

13. I was trying to fit it all together...just didn't work...nt

[arcane1]

11. Mother Teresa said pain is Jesus kissing you...

thus rendering painkillers evil.

[vim876]

12. Without pain...

...there is no forgiveness, no transcendence, as there would be nothing to transcend. Just a thought.

[skepticscott]

14. Well, there would still be superstition, ignorance

and stupidity to transcend. But no one sensible is counting on religion in any form to accomplish that.

[vim876]

28. Pretty sure...

...ignorance and stupidity cause pain. Therefore, without pain, ignorance and stupidity as we know them wouldn't be able to exist.

[PassingFair]

32. You forgot boredom.

Transcendence:

[sakabatou]

15. God's into S&M?

[laconicsax]

16. Presumably.

[AlecBGreen]

17. a sign in our HS wrestling room

"Pain is weakness leaving the body."

Pain is unavoidable in this life. If you are going to be afflicted by it, why not try to make the most of it? Im a believer in the idea that any thing which happens to you can be used constructively, positively. That does not mean I seek hardship but I do try to find the good in any situation. Elie Wiesel & Nelson Mandela are a few great examples of this.

I do not agree that "God uses pain to show us our sin."

[ZombieHorde]

19. I agree being positive during bad situations is good, but the article is fucking crazy.

If your car was stolen, and someone said, "well, now you will finally get the exercise you've been wanting," then that is seeing the positive side of the situation.

If your car was stolen, and someone said, "well, now you are no longer able to be possessed by evil, ghostly yetis," then that is fucking crazy.

[AlecBGreen]

22. agree

good to see the zombie is back!

[skepticscott]

20. Well, if it's posted in your HS wrestling room

then it must be true.

Not.

And if you try to find the good in ANY situation, can you not find it just as easily, if not more so, in a situation without pain?

[Jim__]

18. Does pain serve a function?

Clearly, it does. At the most superficial level, pain tells us to rest an injured body part, and rest is often what is required. But, without pain, would compassion have developed, strong social bonding, morality? Pain could certainly play a role in the development of these things.

But further, consider a person who loses their whole family, and maybe beyond their family, everyone they know. We can all imagine that there may be such people in Japan following their recent catastrophe. I can't know their pain, but I can see how it could lead to their wanting to just quit, just not bother anymore. I also believe they are better off to rejoin the struggle, to try to win back a life. Why is it better? To me, life is always worth the struggle. Suppose the concept of a god that wants them to continue helps them to get back into it. Suppose the concept of god helps people and societies to survive. Is their something wrong with that? Is that a bad thing?

Religion is ubiquitious throughout human societies. It may be that religion helps us to survive, helps us to come through these horrible tragedies. Does anyone know that it doesn't? Religion has been a powerful force throughout human history. Do we fully understand why? Should we try to understand this before we condemn the place of religion in human society? At the very least, if we want to talk about religion's role, we have to try to answer these questions.

[skepticscott]

21. If there were no pain

we wouldn't need compassion, now would we? Or morality. Or Social bonding. Silly argument.

[dimbear]

23. Not complicated. God sends you arthritis because He loves you.

He sends your dog arthritis because he is mean.

[skepticscott]

24. And having your child or spouse

die in screaming agony while you watch is all part of "God's plan".

:puke:

[Iggo]

25. Straight-up godlove, baby!

Pain is Love.

I hurt you because I love you.

[Jim__]

26. Of course that fails to address the most basic point in the argument.

Pain drives us to rest injured body parts - pain is important to our survival.

[skepticscott]

27. That's the trivial and obvious point

as you apparently realize, since you zipped over it quickly. Nobody disagrees with it and it needs no addressing. But it has nothing to do with the OP, since we don't need "god" to explain why physical pain evolved to let us know something is wrong with our bodies.

[Jim__]

29. But your reply (post #21) begins begins by denying it: If there were no pain ...

Beyond that, my argument was not about the origin of pain, but coping mechanisms that can help us to deal with it:

... Suppose the concept of a god that wants them to continue helps them to get back into it. Suppose the concept of god helps people and societies to survive. Is their something wrong with that? Is that a bad thing?

Religion is ubiquitious throughout human societies. It may be that religion helps us to survive, helps us to come through these horrible tragedies. ...

Your statement: But it has nothing to do with the OP, since we don't need "god" to explain why physical pain evolved to let us know something is wrong with our bodies, shows your utter confusion. I never claimed that we needed god to explain pain; my claim was that the concept of a god can serve as a coping mechanism. The article cited in the OP is someone using his concept of god as a coping mechanism.

[trotsky]

30. The concept of a scapegoat can also serve as a coping mechanism.

Does that make scapegoating justified?

[skepticscott]

33. Your headline was

"Does pain serve a function?" Seems to me and everyone else here like you were talking about the origin of pain.

And your attempt to paint a god concept as a coping mechanism for pain (in addition to being unrelated to your headline) also has nothing to do with the OP, since that was about "God" CAUSING pain in the first place.

Utter confusion indeed.

[Jim__]

34. From the cited article: "What is God’s purpose in our pain?"

Given your claim:

And your attempt to paint a god concept as a coping mechanism for pain (in addition to being unrelated to your headline) also has nothing to do with the OP, since that was about "God" CAUSING pain in the first place.

Coupled with your claim:

"Does pain serve a function?" Seems to me and everyone else here like you were talking about the origin of pain.

It doesn't appear that you can understand either the original article or my response to it.

And, I am surprised that we have someone who can speak for everyone, as in your claim:

Seems to me and everyone else here like you were talking about the origin of pain.

[skepticscott]

36. Nice try, but fail

I understood both quite well. You talked about a "god concept" in the minds of believers being a coping mechanism for pain, regardless of where it comes from or if "god" even has a real world existence. The article and the OP are talking about a real god CAUSING real pain for purposes unknown, a quite different thing, whether you grasp that or (apparently) not. Your quoting me is not an argument, nor is anything else you've said, for that matter.

[Deep13]

31. What a load of crap...

...the religious sentiment, not your criticism of it.

Pain means you are damaged and suffering. That's all. It has no wider meaning.

[LeftishBrit]

35. On the one hand...

it probably would be a comfort to be able to see pain and suffering as a temporary part of a wider plan which will ultimately lead to something much better. Many religious people are undoubtedly comforted by such thoughts - and some non-religious people whom I know have similar attitudes to accepting pain and suffering as 'a part of life' and something that one can 'grow from'. None of these interpretations, either in their religious or non-religious form, have ever worked for me; but I respect the fact that they do for many.

On the other hand, there are some religious right-wingers whose religious interpretations of the value of pain get all mixed with a harsh, 'tough-love', 'no concessions to hard cases' approach to political and social issues. Here is a perfect example of such an approach from a local blogger:

http://sufferingworld.blogspot.com/2009/04/caritas-quid-est-caritas.html

[KaoriMitsubishi]

37. "pain offers us a lesson in gods love"

If anyone really believes this, perhaps you'd like me to run over your legs with my car? I can back up and do it again and again until you learn your lesson. ;-)