Atheists who believe in ghosts...

[GKirk]

I was talking to an atheist the other day and he mentioned seeing what he thought was a ghost.
Is it possible to be an atheist and believe in ghosts?
OK, I guess it is possible but does that make any sense?

[tekisui]

1. Well, strictly speaking. An atheist has no belief in god.

That doesn't preclude a belief in a soul or a ghost. Although, most of the atheists I know, myself included, don't believe in a god or a durable lasting soul.

[dkf]

2. That question doesn't make sense to me.

Ghosts are not exclusive to religion are they?

[ZombieHorde]

3. Atheist? Yes. Skeptic? No.

Many religious people are atheists, especially those from many "eastern" religions and new age religions.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. And that's why I prefer the term "Skeptic".

A skeptic disbelieves ALL mythological, anti-scientific crap -- not only that consisting of ultra-powerful Universe-encompassing beings.

[Iggo]

43. And therefore a Skeptic is an Atheist by definition (or by default).

I can live with that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. By superset. -nt

[Trajan]

4. It can be reconciled ...

IF the ghost is identified as a natural phenomena which can empirically defined .... A physical being with measurable characteristics in a physical world subject to universal physical laws ....

If there is no claim of a supernatural cause ... Then a deity is not implied ....

In other words, as long as the Atheist believes that ghosts exist through some sort of natural process, then their unwarranted belief in ghosts is NOT founded on a theistic basis, even if it is still an unwarranted belief. It would be consistent ....

On the other hand; If the definition of ghost is 'a being that is supernatural entity with a supernatural cause', then one would still have an unwarranted belief in ghosts, but also an inconsistent position regarding the existence of deities ...

Is there a supernaturalist explanation for a spiritual entity that does not include a deity as the cause for the spiritual entity ? ..... Perhaps

(EDIT: Actually - There are those who believe in a sort of spiritual ether in which spirits and 'ghosts' inhabit, where they move through the physical world, untouched and unseen .... What is the presumed cause of such a spiritual ether ? .... Hmmmmm )

[Curmudgeoness]

5. I don't see how an atheist can believe in ghosts.

I consider myself an atheist. As an atheist, I do not believe there is life after death. And I do not believe in souls.

If I were to see what I truly believed to be a ghost, I would have to totally re-evaluate my beliefs.

[SheilaT]

6. I believe the strict definition of an

atheist is one who does not believe in a God. Or Gods. That does not necessarily preclude a belief in a soul or the survival thereof. Many atheist do not believe in anything like a soul or the survival of consciousness after death, but not all atheists are the same.

[TNLib]

7. Maybe he didn't believe in ghost before he saw one

:shrug:

[GreenEyedLefty]

8. Anything is possible. It makes sense to me.

[angstlessk]

9. My experience as an atheist...not ghosts...but afterlife

Okay, my sisters daughter was killed in an auto accident in Florida by some sleepy headed senior who held down two jobs....

My mother and I went to Florida for her funeral...I had to leave early to get back to work..my mother stayed behind for as long as she could.

While my mother was sill in Florida and I back in Virginia...I was drawn to a grocery store I NEVER shopped...because it required me to make two u-turns...so I always went to another store...however this day I was drawn in...

I was shopping when I came upon their greeting card display..and though..."I should get my niece/nephews bithhday cards to send....since I was always bereft in that department...when I went to purchase my sisters birthday card..I had one ..put it back...picked it back up..put it back...this occurred several times...I finally left with a purchase..and because her birthday was soon, I mailed it to her...

My mother returned that week and because we both had birthdays in September..she had brought back a birthday card from my sister to me...
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It was the exact same birthday card I had returned...picked up..and returned several times...BUT FINALLY DECIDED TO MAIL TO MY SISTER

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Do not tell me there is no afterlife (energy cannot be destroyed)...My sisters daughter MADE me purchase that birthday card..and NO ONE can convince me otherwise...and yes I am an atheist!

[GKirk]

10. All righty then...

... my daughters once bought their Mom the same card too.
So that must reinforce that there is an afterlife. Somehow.

[angstlessk]

11. Did they go out of their way..and put the card back about 3 times...before

settling on the right card???

If I had JUST bought the same card it would not have even bothered me...but the fact I went to a store I NEVER went to..and put the card back at least 3 times...says something besides just coincidence was going on there.

[GKirk]

12. So not only is there an after life

but the recently deceased can control your actions and even your mind.
Or it could just be a coincidence.
Occam's razor in play.

[angstlessk]

14. Occams razor says I DO NOT GO TO THAT GROCERY STORE

two U-turns....other than that..Occams razor is useless!

[GKirk]

20. Have you ever gone to a store

for the first time? Of course you have.
So now we had two coincedences (coincedi?).

No more freaky than the combination of people who had to get together
over the eons to produce the two people who met and produced me one night
about 60 years ago. Tons and tons of coincedences to produce me.

[cleanhippie]

31. DO you realize that YOU are placing emphasis on particular details that you WANT to see?

It seem obvious, at least to me, that you are LOOKING for a connection, and have placed particular importance on certain parts of your story because it helps you to JUSTIFY what you WANT to believe. Thats called rationalization, FWIW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28making_excuses%29



So, to summarize, where YOU see a cause or a purpose, others see mere coincidence.

[angstlessk]

15. Are you the OWNER of the dead..and what happens to them.and

how energy may persist after death...YOU ARE THE KNOW ALL AND END ALL of EVERYTHING?

[GKirk]

19. You mistakenly added a question mark to that statement

I'm sure what you wanted to say to me is:

YOU ARE THE KNOW ALL AND END ALL of EVERYTHING

[angstlessk]

23. As wih all folks who know all things.....YOU ARE A LEGEND IN YOUR OWN MIND

SHIT HAPPENS...that cannot be explained...one example is why people think they know everything..when in fact they know nothing?

[Mojambo]

25. The CONSTANT use of CAPITAL letters only serve to HIGHLIGHT that you're CRAZY. N/T

[angstlessk]

26. That's..it..that is all you have...MY USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS...

YOU ARE AN IDIOT...WHICH YOU HAVE PROVEN ...I REALLY THOUGHT WE WOULD HAVE A CONVERSATION...BUT I DO CAPS...!!!

[Mojambo]

30. You aren't interested in a discussion on this.

That was made quite clear when you declared that there was an afterlife and "NO ONE can convince me otherwise..."

But nice try.

[GKirk]

27. You just eplained it quite well

SHIT HAPPENS... yes sometimes it's strange shit that happens and sometimes it's all weird and spooky shit but it's still just shit

[angstlessk]

13. NOT ONLY THAT...I met a man who gave me a book...'LIFE AFTER DEATH'

Which comforted my sister....Meeting him was as bizarre as the purchase of the birthday card....I slept with him...but did not have sex...and after I returned...he was MIA...no one knew anything about him...he just appeared...then disappeared...

[Mojambo]

16. You may be an atheist, but you're certainly not a rationalist. n/t

[angstlessk]

17. Define rationalist...is there some sort of special dictionary they use?

or maybe they use toilet paper differently??? please define....

[Mojambo]

18. Wow. You've really got some issues about this whole deal, huh?

Seem pretty worked up. Or maybe it's just a spirit cranking you up.

[angstlessk]

22. Can you define rationalist...or what??

My comments may be snarky ...but asking to define rationalist is REAL!

[Mojambo]

24. What, you don't own a dictionary?

"One who accepts reason as the supreme authority in matters of opinion, belief, or conduct."

Superstition, rather than reason, seems to be supreme for you. At least based on what you've stated in this thread.

[GKirk]

29. Rationalist....

...someone who stops and at a store that they've never been to before and buys the same birthday as another relative and says "well that was a weird coincidence".

Versus someone who stops and at a store that they've never been to before and buys the same birthday as another relative and says "WOW! My recently deceased relative must have controlled my mind and body and made me buy that card"

[trotsky]

32. How many times have you bought birthday cards that were different?

Look up "confirmation bias" and read about it. You are ignoring the mountain of misses to focus on one "hit."

[Silent3]

33. "energy cannot be destroyed" is a poor argument for immortality

Quite aside from whether you believe there are other reasons, the principle of conservation of energy (the First Law of Thermodynamics) offers nothing in favor of immortal souls or immortal minds. The Second Law of Thermodynamics offers nothing but bad news for hopes of immortality of any sort.

The human mind is no more energy than an ice sculpture is water. An ice sculpture may be made of water, but the essence of the sculpture is entirely in the shape and form the water holds as intricately carved ice. Melt the sculpture and the sculpture is gone, even if the water remains.

I can't, and won't, claim that immortality is impossible. If you're going invoke science, however, you have to stick with what's known and proven science. As there is no proof of some separate entity you might call a "soul", the human mind from a scientific point of view must be seen as an emergent phenomena of the biochemistry of the brain. A particular mind must be seen as the result of the particular patterns of electrochemical impulses traveling through a particular brain, the particular patterns of interconnected neurons and chemically-encoded states.

Upon death, all of those particulars break down. Whatever energy is involved in the processes of the mind loses coherence, eventually devolving into waste heat. Conservation of energy does not preserve the important details that make a mind unique.

[trotsky]

35. But what if I use the word "quantum"?

Certainly that makes my beliefs valid, right?

[Iggo]

42. Oh yes. That sounds way more sciency.

:thumbsup:

[raccoon]

37. One year my sister and I bought each other the same identical birthday card.

Our birthdays are a few days apart.

It happens. Coincidence. Also, there's not a huge selection of birthday cards for one's sister found in regular grocery stores.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. I have bad news for you. You're not energy -- you're information.

And information CAN be destroyed.

[bengalherder]

21. There are theories of ghosts existing as electrical phenomena

peculiar to their location. Certainly phenomenon such as 'ghost lights' might fall under this theory.

I'd guess that an atheist's theories would tend NOT to involve souls but look for more pragmatic and/or scientific explanations while yet acknologing the phenomenon.

[catgirl]

28. I believe that...

and that some energy stays on only temporarily, like a few days. There's a lot we don't know yet about
energy, other dimentions, etc. Plus an "other side" doesn't mean there's a God.

[dimbear]

34. In the 19th century, ghosts used to chat about theology.

They were mostly Catholic ghosts. Not so chatty lately. Probably been reading Steven King.

[PassingFair]

36. I think our brains subconsciously "look" for "signs" when we lose someone we love.

Years ago on the day of my dad's funeral, someone left a paperbag
on the porch.

When I picked it up, condensation from something frozen
inside left a distinctly heart-shaped mark on the cement.

Random.

Two weeks ago, right after my sister-in-law died, I
was driving down the freeway and a red, heart-shaped
balloon drifted right across my path.

Random.

I don't believe in ghosts, but I believe that
people WANT to believe, even when the work is
being done subconsciously.

Random.

I will probably involuntarily look for hearts from
now on when someone I love dies. But it is really...

Random.

[raccoon]

38. Great post! nt

[Withywindle]

39. Depends on why any given atheist is an atheist.

I don't see why not believing in god(s) would necessarily preclude believing in ghosts.

I think 'atheist' gets defined too broadly a lot of the time. I think one can definitely not believe in God or any gods, while still believing in other types of manifestations of the supernatural. Or for that matter, believing that a lot of things like ghosts ARE real and natural and we just haven't found the right way to measure them yet, and there is still no need to have deities to explain it. Don't see why that would be so rare or so hard to understand. :shrug:

[hartandsoul]

45. The supernatural is the spiritual realm

God is spirit, Satan is spirit and that's where they dwell. Also angels and demons dwell there as well. Ghosts are either angelic and demonic. If there is not a God, then these do not exist either.

Angels and demoms are on missions in the spiritual realm either as angels as helpmates or a demons as a destructive force.

[darkstar3]

46. For such an active imagination, you've set quite a lot of rules.

[hartandsoul]

47. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

These are not my rules, they are basic Biblical principles.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. If there is no 'God', then 'basic Biblical principles' do not apply

Instead, you can apply the common definition of 'ghost' - a 'spiritual' remanant of a once-living human that is somehow perceivable, and associated with the earth (often being limited to one spot on the earth's surface). This definition does not involve a god, Christian or otherwise.

[Meldread]

49. By the most narrow of definitions.

An atheist is an individual who disbelieves in a god or gods. As a result, everyone is an atheist to one degree or another. A Christian and a Jew would be defined as atheistic toward the Greek Pantheon of deities. They would not (generally) believe in their existence. They'd make the same arguments that most stereotypical atheists would make against the existence of such deities, because they themselves are atheistic toward those deities. Likewise, a common practitioner of Wicca or Buddhism would be defined as atheistic toward Christianity and Judaism. They would not (generally) believe in the existence of YHWH.

While it's true that most people who define themselves as atheists are unlikely to believe in ANY form of supernatural manifestation of power, that doesn't mean by the most narrow of definitions that some atheists wouldn't diverge. Atheism is not like religion; there is only one criteria: a disbelief in a god or gods. That doesn't mean that atheists can't understand that there are some things that can't yet be explained, indeed - only a fool would proclaim that we understand and can explain everything. The important distinction to make, however, is that most people who identify themselves as atheists believe that things CAN be explained and understood, thus making all experiences natural phenomena rather than supernatural phenomena.