"the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers"

[kpete]

But aren't Christians basically more ethical than atheists? Fuggedabahtit.



"A growing body of social science research reveals that atheists, and non-religious people in general, are far from the unsavory beings many assume them to be. On basic questions of morality and human decency — issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.

..................




THE REST:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-americans-still-dislike-atheists/2011/02/18/AFqgnwGF_story.html
VIA:
http://prairieweather.typepad.com/big_blue_stem/2011/04/and-finally-atheists-are-more-moral-than-christians.html

[MineralMan]

1. That's certainly possible.

It wouldn't surprise me, but it's really hard to get information on atheists as a group. They have so little else in common, really.

[nonperson]

118. There are many people who can be described as irreligious than just atheists

I was raised as a Catholic. I believe in the teachings of Jesus from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The teachings the so-called "religious" these days eschew, preferring to force their own twisted version of religion on the rest of us. Ethical humanism and socialism are far more aligned with the teachings of Jesus than today's so-called Christians on the far right.

They ignore the teachings of Jesus in favor of their own narrow agenda.

[hlthe2b]

131. Exactly... this dichotomy some create is not only wrong...

but ridiculous, frankly. It isn't an either/or. I dare say there may be more agnostics than proclaimed "believers" OR atheists.

[Rainbowreflect]

133. Too many people use religion to disguise their selfishnesses.

As in I am a Christian, therefore good no matter what I do. Rather than trying to do "good" because they are Christian.

[RKP5637]

2. No surprises there. Someone tells me they're really religious, all the red flags go up for me. n/t

[Quantess]

16. Yes, often, it's a cover to distract you from their dishonest behavior.

I have seen it too many times.

[jeaps]

61. amen to that! nt

[nonperson]

126. They remind me of Robert Mitchum in "Night of the Hunter"

They're atheists in their own right, IMO, of the very worse type.

[Vehl]

19. +1

Same here

I have no probs with someone being very religious personally..but the more they talk about it..the more scary they get.

[brewens]

34. Especially if they put that out there right away. My girlfriends

daughter comes to mind. She's not a rotten person at all but the good christian delusion is really strong with her.
I don't care how many bible studies she goes to, or her husband with his mens group, if they refuse to learn anything it's a joke. The come back exactly as ignorant, irresponsible and lazy as they were when they left.

[freshwest]

106. Add to that guys saying they're 'looking for a good Christian woman.' ie: doormat, concubine, slave.

I've been to co-ed Bible studies where the conversation veered off the discussion to laughing about gerbils and how they can end up inside of a person's anatomy. And the guys getting orgasmic about guns, Clinton's blow job, etc. Inside my head was exploding.

Then had women in all-women studies claim we shouldn't even be talking about the Bible because it's up to the men to decide the weightier matters of life and eternity. All of them were homemakers whose husbands made enough to keep them and their children living in luxury. They were oblivious to the fact that some of us were divorced or widowed and that there were no men present to tell us how to think there.

That was in a wealthy rural congregation of IT workers, federal contractors, entrepreneurs, etc. All evangelicals and they voted consistently to privatize schools and utilities, sell off park land and public facilities and deregulate everything. They cheered as the senior center and public park with ball fields and gymnasium was closed saying they had their own land for that. They also voted to defund programs for the poor and even disavowed private charity.

Folks, this is what we're up against in this country. I was so out of there after that particular educational experience. Never again.

[RowdyRacer]

45. I agree -

When anyone wears their religion on their sleeve, I hang onto my wallet!!

[theaocp]

49. That should be a bumpersticker. n/t

[rurallib]

77. been saying that for years!

[Raksha]

95. That's been my experience too.

I wonder if the Bible-bangers realize they have a reputation for dishonesty among so-called "nonbelievers." And it's a well-deserved reputation too.

[freshwest]

97. Sad, but true, And I'm snagging that one. Welcome to DU.

[RKP5637]

121. Yep, like the warning signs I've sometimes seen posted on

transit lines. "Warning, Pickpockets, guard your wallet!" They could also post one that says "Warning, Fundies, guard your wallet!"

[Hissyspit]

63. Freakwater: "There's nothing so pure as the kindness of an atheist

... a simple act of slfishness that never has to be repaid."

From a non-believer's songbook:

"Gone to Stay"

Freakwater
Old Paint

How many heartaches do you think you can stand
I used to count 'em all on the fingers of just one hand
Way back in the distance before these sad times began
Now I'm down by the ocean counting grains of sand

There's nothing so pure as the kindness of an atheist
A simple act of unselfishness that never has to be repaid
And there's nothing so sure as a razor blade above your wrist
When you think you just can't stand it
You're gonna leave empty handed
Do you still dream of being saved

Friends and relations they all stand around
As the casket is lowered down into the ground
The shovel dirt and gravel - all his mother hears is the sound
Of a little baby crying somewhere in the crowd

Jesus wouldn't save you and you cried
I knew I couldn't save you so I lied
The doctors couldn't save you but I do believe they tried
After dying together we die alone side by side

There's nothing so pure as the kindness of an atheist
A simple act of unselfishness that never has to be repaid
And there's nothing so sure as a razor blade above your wrist
When you think you just can't stand it
You're gonna leave you empty handed
Do you still dream of being saved

[RKP5637]

88. +1, n/t

[freshwest]

98. That was 'something completely different.'

[UnrepentantLiberal]

75. Same here.

There are exceptions to every rule, but usually when someone says they're religious I know I we're going to have problems.

[spooked911]

76. No doubt

I don't trust anyone who is so gung-ho about superstitious nonsense

[kestrel91316]

114. IMHO the wolves in sheep's clothing outnumber true "sheep" about 2 to 1.

[RKP5637]

120. Yep! I'm not a religious person at all, but I do remember from church days always

hearing them say, "the devil comes in many disguises." Often I think these pious religious charlatans of today are the ones I used to be warned of as a kid. I do feel sorry for the good people that get sucked in today, the good ones, the lambs.

[nonperson]

128. Then again I'd love to have met Ghandi or Dr. King

Or any of many others I'm probably too ill-informed to know of.

[RKP5637]

135. Yep, same here! n/t

[Logical]

3. No shock there. Less percent of Atheists in prison than in the general population. n-t

[Kip Humphrey]

4. AMEN!!!

[RC]

5. Atheist depend on themselves to determine the correct course of action

The religious depend on their version of a invisible cloud dweller, thereby absolving themselves of any responsibility for their actions. God's will and all that.

[Enthusiast]

71. I think there is

something to what you say. I have observed this in many professed Christians.

[Zhade]

6. It's probably because we're rational thinkers.

We weigh evidence, not a mythical being's alleged wishes, when faced with ethical situations.

[RKP5637]

26. Exactly!!! n/t

[AlbertCat]

55. It's probably because we're rational thinkers.

They also are not inclined toward "group think"...by which I mean "my group is better than your group". Much less "us & them" emitted by atheists to the people they meet. Not so the other way 'round.

[Odin2005]

103. Oops, wrong place.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. Most ethics are irrational.

It's rational to do everything that you can get away with.

But when people go to the unattended grocery store and ring up their purchases on the self-checkout machine anyway, something other than rationality is working.

In my experience, those who find God at a later age are the worst. They scare themselves at some point about their ethical frame and go to church looking to be forgiven. Sadly, the fundamental ethical compass never gets fixed.

Such as the philandering fundy repub accountant with whom I worked with who had 12 kids, explained why blacks were never going to work for the company and stole my sodas from the lunchroom fridge. But by God, he was at church every Sunday, and was pretty sure I was going to hell because I let my kids go trick-or-treating, and lose my job for being a Democrat.

Worked there 14 years. I'm glad I left.

[PassingFair]

140. Some of those ethics may SEEM irrational in the short term.

Over the course of time, honesty is, of course, the best policy.

[Odin2005]

104. I don't think reason has anything to do with it.

I think that, at most, reason simply rationalizes gut-level (disgust-driven) and heart-level (empathy-driven) ethical judgements. It is just that Religious people are able to use their beliefs to justify their actions when their gut-level reactions hurt people.

[Cassandra]

7. That's less because of religion...

and more to do with the psychology of those who describe themselves as very religious. They really are clinging to religion to save them from themselves, often unsuccessfully.

[RKP5637]

9. And often one compulsive behavior substituted for another. n/t

[patrice]

22. Good point!

[eridani]

43. I think that many of those who describe themselves as very religious--

--don't actually practice the ethics of any existing religion. They just use belief as an excuse for being amoral socipaths--a get out of jail free card.

[AlbertCat]

56. That's less because of religion...

That makes no sense. It's "less because of religion" that they are more religious?

What IS it with the arguments that separate "religion" from its followers? If no one follows a religion, it ceases to exist as a religion. Religions ARE their followers. They make it "real" and not just some forgotten mythology without "authority" over anyone or anything.

So all those awful Christians are also "real" Christians because they look to the Bible for their vile ideas just as much as "good" Christians do for their good ideas. Christians own Rev. Phelps and Rev Jones.... they are yours. You Christians do something about them!

[Raksha]

96. Good point, i.e. "Religions ARE their followers."

I'll remember that the next time some Bible-banger tells me "real Christians" were not the historic perpetrators of anti-Semitism, Torquemada wasn't a "real Christian," etc. It's a standard variation on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

[Cassandra]

101. Don't bother "you Christian"ing me...

I'm Jewish and not particularly religious.
My point is that people with authoritarian leanings choose religious observance that suits that. Religion doesn't create sheep, it attracts them, as well as others. Religion also attracts wolves for the pulpit, as well as decent people.
There are religious people who are truly good and spiritual, but they would be that way no matter what religion or lack thereof they practiced. There are religious people who are in it for the rules and being on the winning team and they either find a religion that suits them or they bend one to their needs.
If you haven't yet read, The Authoritarians, do so. It's free.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. Yes. This. n/t

[Odin2005]

107. In my experience such people are litterally addicted to their religion.

It's not just Fundamentalism, but New Age and Eastern beliefs, too. As a practitioner of Buddhist meditation I have heard many stories of hurt and damaged people who use meditation as an excuse to escape from the world rather than use it to help live one's life fully. Same with the Born-Agains, their religion is escapism, the kind of thing Marx was talking about when he called Religion the "opiate of the people".

[ZombieHorde]

8. We know how to avoid getting caught! nt

[Kurovski]

28. LOL.

Eep! :D

[Zorra]

10. You don't need to be a Doctor of Anthropology to see that. nt

[mzteris]

11. absolutely!

The "irreligious" are ethical because THEY WANT TO BE - not because they're afraid NOT to be, nor they're seeking some "crown in heaven bs" as their goad.

[kestrel91316]

115. I have always tended to think less well of a person who needs a bribe

to do good to others, rather than simply doing it because it is kind and the morally right thing.

[Warpy]

12. Religious people don't face their judge until after they die

An atheist faces his judge every time he looks in the mirror.

That's one major difference.

[safeinOhio]

14. How can I ever be forgiven

if I don't sin?

I think that sums it up.

[Plucketeer]

112. Good assessment! nt

[patrice]

24. I like how this observation touches on the issue of identity, pre-fabricated identity compared to

identity that is a result of one's own understandings and behaviors.

A pre-fabricated identity only needs to be maintained by its external source.

When you have to recognize for yourself who you are, what you value, what to do and not to do, every violation of that, as you suggest by your metaphor, causes confusion, its consequent stress and, ultimately, pain, all of which might be recognized instinctively as threats to one's ability to function/survive.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

31. Well put.........

You've crystallized my thoughts perfectly and I'm going to remember this. Thanks for the clear insight.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. I was trying to formulate that same thought - but you said it better

than anything I came up with.

[Enthusiast]

72. Good point.

I agree completely.

[whatchamacallit]

117. +1

[Lucian]

13. K&R

This is definitely true, especially from what I've witnessed throughout my life.

[ixion]

15. If all you have to do is say 'sorry' to God, it's no surprise

that xians are unethical. They do what they want, because in their deluded minds, their God will ALWAYS forgive them.

People who have to actually answer to their ethics is a different matter all together.

[snappyturtle]

82. YES, yes, yes! nt

[stuntcat]

17. k & r

I used to be just a plain old atheist, but now I'm capital-A Atheist, after the last couple decades seeing what religious people can do.
Especially their rape of the planet, while they kill each other with million-dollar guns, as 40,000 people die of starvation each day, etc etc etc.

[SidDithers]

18. 'Cause the irreligious are do good for goodness' sake...

not for some hoped-for reward in the afterlife.

Sid

[tech9413]

20. My brother in law used to have a plastics business

He said that any time he was dealing with someone who professed their religious belief he was put on guard. That's pretty much been my experience too. I've been had by more than a few people that I trusted based on their "Christian" faith. Live and learn.

[RandomThoughts]

21. Religion without thought and feeling.

Can be used as an excuse to do anything, a blank check permission. If you believe you do something for God, and you believe you can not understand Gods purpose. Then you can do anything if you can convince yourself it is from divine origin.

Why I believe there must be reason and heart, thought and feeling, to discern what you think the divine tells you to do.

[Taitertots]

23. Atheists know right from wrong....

Religious people are just taking someone else's word for it.

[freshwest]

25. Agreed. The spirit of compassion is not confined to any brand name. Check this out:

Religious do not have monopoly on virtue, Queen tells synod.

Believers and atheists equally able to contribute to country's prosperity, says monarch.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/23/queen-synod-virtue

And from one of the inspirations of the Founding Fathers, Voltaire:

'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'

It's not rational or reasonable to wish to inflict harm on others. Because what goes around, comes around. No one is immune.

[NewJeffCT]

39. Good for the queen

I don't remember hearing about that here in the US...

[freshwest]

41. Well, I heard about it on Huffpo a whlle back and followed the link. I thought it was good, too.

[kestrel91316]

116. People may fault the queen for her inherited wealth, titles, and position,

but she warn't born no fool. There is a very GOOD core in that woman.

[LeftishBrit]

27. I think this reflects the current frequent American association between Christianity and the right

To the hard Right, 'governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia' are ethical, not unethical. When they describe atheists (and religious liberals) as immoral, they *mean* to quite a degree that we are not sufficiently sexist and especially homophobic; and not sufficiently punitive to children, lawbreakers and 'enemies' (especially those of other religions).

It's fundamentally the difference between an authoritarian and an anti-authoritarian ethical code, more than between atheism and religion. Non-religious ideologies, especially nationalist ones, can be very authoritarian; and religion need not be authoritarian at all. But in current American, and to some extent British, politics, there is an association between the two. (And of course even more so in countries, currently mostly Muslim, where theocracy rules explicitly.)

Note for example the Christian Institute, an (uncharacteristically) right-wing Christian British group, which rates MPs on their 'morally right' and 'morally wrong' votes.

http://www.christian.org.uk/mpvotes.php?selection=&value1=256&submit1=SHOW&value2=1

Note that they consider homophobic votes - e.g. against civil partnerships; against allowing gay couples to adopt; and against removing the ban on gays serving in the armed forces as *morally right* and votes in the other direction as *morally wrong*. They also consider it as morally wrong to support restrictions on the punitive hitting of children.

[LarryNM]

36. +1,000 n/t

[RKP5637]

47. Agree!!! n/t

[chollybocker]

69. "...and religion need not be authoritarian at all."

How not so?

[LeftishBrit]

79. I mean socially/legally authoritarian

I suppose a God is by definition an authority figure; but religions, and believers within any religion, vary quite widely in terms of whether they think that their God has a great interest in writing their country's laws; appointing or sacking their politicians; and controlling what their neighbours do in their bedrooms.

[patrice]

91. I think it is useful to associate these social institutions with basic habits of

thought, such as "authoritarian : non-authoritarian" as you suggest.

To me, this is the same as absolutist : relativist thinking. Relativist thinking, the premise that whatever is right and/or wrong INHERS in the specific conditions of the situation at hand (i.e. morality is relative to the uniqueness of each situation), has been demonized by the authoritarians for too long.

Authoritarians say that the moral relativist does not believe that there is any such thing as right and wrong and I suppose they'd be right to the extent that honest moral relativists DO NOT BELIEVE, they think about the world and this is a problem to any authoritarian.

Thought is some degree of analysis & description; it answers the question "What are the facts?" The answers to that question are a repudiation of power and they constitute the true steps along the road to freedom. Taking them can be a threat to TPB and that is why (whatever you believe or don't believe about what happened afterward) a guy named Jesus was killed by his CHURCH-State over 2000 years ago.

[freshwest]

99. Egg, meet chicken. Thanks for the link.

[darkstar3]

29. I see the marked absence of our resident expert(s) on the general immorality of all atheists.

How expected, and illustrative.

[onager]

86. Knock it off, Stalin!

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

30. Nietzsche was right.

[Taverner]

33. Gott ist tot!

[rhett o rick]

35. Gott ist tater-tot! Mine Deutch ist nich sehr goot. Just sayin nm

[Taverner]

37. Not a sprechen ze Deutch kinda guy either - but I know THAT sentence!

[kpete]

94. tater-tot!

i never would have thought?!?

peace, kpete

[datasuspect]

59. and we killed him

people always leave that part out.

[nashville_brook]

83. he had it coming.

[Taverner]

32. It's because we're good for goodness sake

The billboard really hit the nail on the head

Any time I think of doing something even the slightest bit unethical, I think - who could be hurt? Who could be harmed?

[rhett o rick]

38. Many religious people use religion to justify their behavior. "It's ok to hate people because God

said so via Glen Beck."

[bhikkhu]

40. I've always thought that "morality" preceded and inspired religion

rather than the other way around. Or in another way that "good behavior" is fundamental to any social animal, and (as Lao Tzu would say) the rigid codification and enforcement of good behavior is not generally a sign that things are going right in a society.

[BanzaiBonnie]

42. Studies have found that non-church goers tend

to be more compassionate!

[theaocp]

51. This reminded me of something.

I used to work in Colorado, setting up ski vacations for families and the like. If I remember correctly, around the end of January was "Gay Ski Week." Occasionally, religious clowns would ask me if that was the week when the gays came to town. I told them sure and moved on. Some decided to cancel their trips. Sad day for my paycheck, I guess. Anyway, the reason it never really bothered me was due to my own feeling that we were better off without these assholes around to suck up my valuable oxygen (it's less abundant in the mountains!) and that EVERYBODY in the area loved Gay Ski Week. These folks were the most fun and always had AMPLE amounts of disposable income to spread around. And they did. Liberally. How fucking ironic.

[kag]

65. Thank you!

As a Coloradan who lives near a ski resort, I thank you. I would so much rather ski with the people who come out FOR "Gay Ski Week" than the ones who won't come BECAUSE of it! If they ever put together a "Religious Fundamentalist Ski Week" I think I'll stay home and watch TV that week.

[haele]

119. Just as the poor tend to be more charitable than a "a rich person"

when it comes to the actual percentage that charity impacts them personally.

It's a matter of Authoritarianism - if someone thinks "they're better than thee", they're more likely to grant some of their largess with strings attached to those less fortunate. A person who thinks they're one of the chosen - be it religious, social, or economic - will tell others needing help "show me you can make yourself what I and my friends consider to be a better person, and I'll give a little of my pin money so I can show my friends I "care". They never seem to go far enough to share any modicum of pain, but just enough that, well, maybe they have to shave a day off their third vacation of the year or not go shoe shopping that weekend.

I have had people who are supposedly "better than me" - either more church-going or better off financially - tell me it's no good helping a family member when it could possibly hurt me short time or because they are not likely to change; that I have to generally practice "tough love", that I don't understand what I'm doing with my money, my time, my home. It's as if since they have found the answer to their life, their methods are the best for my situation or the situation of the person or agency I want to help.

Haele

[dimbear]

44. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

Evidently they have a lot to be forgiven for..............


Oh well, who doesn't?

[freshwest]

108. If only they would forgive others for not being like them, huh?

[MasonJar]

48. I would assume there are good people in every group. I do not believe

in stereotyping by religion, color, race or sex. Certainly many religious people are sincerely trying to be good citizens of the world, as are many who do not find solace in any religious belief.

[freshwest]

109. That's a reasonable statement. But it's not how movements like Dominionists, Paiin,etc. are made.

And they use their religious tenets to destroy other people's lives. Neither do I claim that agnostics or atheists are better. No one is.

[rhett o rick]

110. I think the point is that religion doesnt make you a better person.

In fact it may hold many back because of the dogma that some religions push.

[The Wizard]

50. For too many adherents

religion is a convenient excuse to shirk responsibilities or being a sociopath.
Some use it for a crutch because they can't handle drugs.
Marx was right.

[tavalon]

52. Eithics and religion are barely kissing cousins

Religion, if done well, may offer up a paradigm, but people choose or don't choose to be ethical. Thoughtful people are, more often than not, ethical. My one experience with Christianity was in a southern baptist congregation where thought was discouraged. But I met a few ethical people there, only a few. They were, without exception, also thoughtful.

That is all I have to add to this discussion, if it even is a discussion.

[harmonicon]

53. Doesn't everyone already know this from personal experience? nt.

[greiner3]

54. Sent this link to my fundi brother;

He went to Oral Sex Univ and is a Charismatic. He and family spent 5 years in Russia as missionaries, his daughters are part of the crap going on in Uganda. He keeps digging at me because I'm an atheist. But above all, maybe his head will explode when he reads this post.

Just sayin'

[kag]

66. You can hope. n/t

[Stumbler]

57. To paraphrase from Richard Dawkins:

One doesn't need religious texts in order to be a moral individual. Indeed, anyone who relies on such texts for their morality is a depraved individual, incapable of using the very logic and reason their God supposedly gifted us all with.

:think:

[Festivito]

58. Parts of religions are sold as much as is the Chamber of Commerce, and some Dems.

At first, I'm sure, it was rather benign. A large donation at the top of a religion, and directly to the minister and even the church hierarchy. Just don't mention issue A, it's controversial.

Then, add a bit on issue B.

Then, someone willing to do much more is catapulted into higher office.

Buying Churches, Dems, groups, is cheap and effective with the huge payback of owning nearly everything in this country.

It ain't just the churches folks.

[CoffeeCat]

60. Ok, big problem here...

The items that were listed that gage basic morality--are things that most hardcore religions ENCOURAGE!!

I listen to a lot of right-wing radio, and most of these guys ENDORSE the things that were mentioned. They
all condone our nation's use of torture, and they all insist that the bible endorses the death penalty due
to "an eye for an eye". They also LOVE to hit their children and often cite "spare the rod, spoil the child"
musings from Bible. Racism and sexism are cornerstones of the bible--and are wholeheartedly embrace in the
bible. Of course, so is homophobia.

That's why I find most religion to be such a farce. Being a bigot, hitting children and torturing other
human beings--seems to defy basic decency and morality.

The problem is--that every evil people are in power, and have convinced religious people that torturing people,
hitting children and killing people to exact revenge--is doing God's work.

It's so screwed up, it defies common sense.

[Kablooie]

62. The religious have the gimmick of being forgiven when they act immorally.

This gives them a free pass to be immoral because they can always plead guilty and be absolved of responsibility.

The irreligious have no such backdoor way out.
If they act immorally it stays with them.

[SpankMe]

64. Republican atheists

This article makes some sense. I work with a ton of Republicans, mostly at the conservative end. (Yes, it's difficult.)

The only two that I really get on with socially are, like me, non-theist and secularist. We actually get along well in spite of being at the opposite ends of the political spectrum on most other issues.

The funny thing is, they are less tolerant of religion expression than I am. I have my own cynicisms. But, they get really pissed when prayers are said at public events (like memorial day ceremonies sponsored by the local government), where I'm a little more willing to roll my eyes and let it slide. Anything Christian or Muslim really gets them mad. They tend to be more accepting and less bombastic towards Jews, eastern religions and native american spiritual stuff. But, if you're a Jesus or Mohammed follower, these guys' heads explode. Interesting.

Also they seem to be far more supportive of gay rights than main-line Republicans. Wonders never cease.

[on point]

67. Forcing people to believe things, like religion, often require violence and its downhill from there

[Evoman]

68. Plus, their music sucks.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. Now I will dispute you on that point

The kind of music played in the megachurches (cheerleading songs and torch songs for Jesus) really does suck.

If that's all you know, then you are justified in saying, "Religious music sucks."

However, I just heard a concert by the Choir of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, London here in Minneapolis last night, and it was glorious--fantastic choral songs from the 16th through the 21st centuries.

Great composers throughout history, starting with Dufay in the Middle Ages, through Bach and Mozart, and down to our present day with Tavener, Pärt, and Whitacre, have written religious music, and it most assuredly does not suck.

[Evoman]

124. I meant the current stuff..christian variations, rock, rap, etc.

Some of the old timey religious music is okay, but that's probably at least partially because people HAD to do religious art/music back in the day to make dough,or to even exist.

But meh.....

[Odin2005]

111. Handel's "Messiah" sucks?

:spank:

[Evoman]

125. Not my taste,

Not enough pimps, hoes and gin and juice.

;)

[sakabatou]

143. I can only agree with you on

Christian rock and pop. Classical music on the other hand, I disagree with you.

[Enthusiast]

70. There is no fucking doubt in my mind.

I see this. I watch this every day, in relatives and in the people I have worked with. Those that profess their holiness the loudest, they are the least ethical. Sometimes I think the religious sit around fantasizing about the "things" they could do if their religious restrictions were lifted for a day. There is evidence to support this.

[ejpoeta]

93. my belief is that if you have to tell someone, then you are not. those that

tell you how christian they are all the time do so because their actions probably do not show it.

[blackbart99]

73. I used to work for a home health company...

One of my driver's was an associate Pastor for his church. He used to take advantage of old
people by saying he could restore their antiques. Most never got them back, the ones that did
paid huge sums to this fraud to get their stuff back. I fired him but he did so much damage to our
customers. It took years to reestablish trust with the community.

Did I forget to tell...he was a republican....but you probably already knew that didn't you.

[brewens]

100. In his mind he was forgiven for his sins and that makes it ok.

He would of course have found some way to feel ok about keeping all the money too.

[fasttense]

74. I find that the ones who think they know the mind of God are the ones who are the most unethical and

immoral. There are religious people out there who study their bible in the hopes of understanding God or what God wants. But the ones who think they know what God wants, the one who think they speak to God and understand his/its mind are the worst. They have everything categorized and lined up and believe unethical immoral behavior is fine as long as it is done for God.

They have no problem with rape, torture, theft or murder as long as it is done for God because they think they know what God wants.

It's those religious people who are constantly striving to understand God that are the most moral.

When you think you speak to God, I guess you think you can get away with murder.

[rucky]

78. Unethical people tend to use religion for cover.

This has been going on for ages. Not to say most religious people are unethical, but I'd wager a guess that most unethical people claim to be religious - especially if acceptance is important to them.

[Nihil]

142. Good point ...

> Unethical people tend to use religion for cover.
> Not to say most religious people are unethical, but I'd wager a guess that
> most unethical people claim to be religious - especially if acceptance is
> important to them.

Also see the number of "religious conversions" amongst prisoners and/or people
awaiting trial ...

If pretending to be "of the book" means that there is a significant chance
that they will be treated more favourably than would otherwise happen, the
unethical person will do it every time.

[ElboRuum]

80. Duh.

Further proof (as if we needed more) that ethics and morality are logical constructs, not spiritual ones.

[snappyturtle]

81. Without reading one reply to learn others' views on this article, I

HAVE to say that this isn't news to me but I'm certainly glad to, finally, read it!

[whistler162]

89. and there was never a moon landing!

gullible ain't ya!

[Moostache]

92. I would rather do business with an open atheist than a self-proclaimed X-tian.

No if's, and's, or but's about it.

Give me the honest person every time and let the closet thief and champion of situational ethics for him and iron clad "law" for everyone else stay with the other money changers in the temple (figuratively speaking of course)...what I always find MORE interesting is that many of the atheists I know actually know MORE about other religions than the adherents themselves.

[Zoeisright]

90. No shit. Religion teaches hatred and intolerance.

PERIOD.

[Wait Wut]

102. As a person of faith, I agree.

I once had a negative opinion of Atheists, but it was based on the radicals that I was surrounded with. Over the years, I've seen more Atheists less concerned about the politics of religion and more concerned with humanity. That should be a trait of the religious, but is often lost somewhere in the faux religious battle. Once a group (in this case, Christians) perceives themselves a target of another group, all the "good" gets pushed to the side in the name of martyrdom. More and more I see Atheists shrugging their shoulders on the "small" issues and taking on the necessary battles, such as Evolution vs ID or Creation taught in public schools. It isn't the purpose of the majority of Atheists (imo) to erase faith from our world, but to tolerate it and promote that tolerance between all faiths, including the faith in humanity.

I got into an interesting discussion with a Catholic a few months ago about Atheists, based on how I capitalize the "A". I explained that Atheism is it's own religion. They don't follow the ancient words of man or any manmade dogma, but they have their own faith and should be recognized as an unorganized religion due to their strong beliefs in science. Who is to say that science is not God or that God is not science? Won't we all be shocked if on "judgment day" we are judged by Einstein or Tesla? No one has the end all answer. I can't imagine being an Atheist because it takes much more faith than I have. I can't explain why I prefer green to red, an orchid to a rose or Mozart to Chopin, and I would prefer to believe that there is no answer.

(DISCLAIMER: I in no way mean to generalize any group. I've known many truly amazing Christians and I've known some real asshole Atheists.)

[darkstar3]

130. "Atheism is it's own religion"??

I think you need to do some more reading...especially if you think that anyone treats science as a god.

[Wait Wut]

132. Not a religion in the accepted sense.

But, I believe that it should be recognized as a religion. If I didn't feel like complete crap today I could probably explain my reasoning a bit better. Atheists have their own beliefs. Not of a god, but beliefs that should be respected. If we're going to give religions tax breaks and special treatment, why shouldn't people of "no" religion be given the same benefits? My only fear is that if it is accepted as a "religion", that the religious right will use our own arguments against us. That would suck.

As for treating science as a "god", it is. For those that believe strongly in a God and creation (in a literal or figurative sense) those who believe otherwise normally replace that role with science.

Like I said, I feel like crap and my head isn't functioning well. Hopefully, you understand what I'm trying to say through the multitude of meds that I'm taking.

[darkstar3]

134. This should be good. Tell me, what do atheists, like myself, believe?

[Wait Wut]

136. I don't know you well enough to know what "you" believe.

I know plenty of other atheists that believe in science and humanity. Most of them (the ones I'm close to) believe in giving to their community, helping out with charity work and promotions and promoting social programs. All traits that the average person thinks of when they think of someone that follows a religion. Atheists are, unfortunately, believed to be selfish and material, when in fact the opposite is (normally) true. If you remove "god" from the conversation, people are people and generally have the same wish for humanity.

If you had read my entire comment, you'd notice I added the disclaimer that I'm not generalizing. I'm speaking from my own experiences and personal relationships. Trust me, I know Atheists that don't give a damn about anything. But, I've also had this conversation with some that (after the laughter dies down) understand my point and generally agree that it is a "type" of religion without a supreme being. Some even see the benefit of recognizing it as a religion. If our military can recognize it as a type of faith (before they recognized Wicca or Pagans, I might add) then I would hope the same of the rest of the population.

But, yes, there are those that are so arrogant in their nonbelief that they refuse to see any other point of view and, instead, attack any conversation with a flippant attitude. Not a good way to get a point across.

[darkstar3]

137. No, you don't, and yet you refer to "Atheism" as a religion.

You see, the assumption you make is that the behaviors you describe are "religious" in nature. Charity and social work are no more religious in nature than child-rearing.

Let me see if I can make a few things clear:

1. "Atheists" with a capital A is a reference to a non-existent group. There is simply no such thing as an over-arching creed or dogma when it comes to people who don't believe in any gods, and trying to state otherwise is generalization whether you want to admit or not.
2. You have engaged in two different forms of fallacy, namely "appeal to the people" and "appeal to authority". It doesn't matter whether "some" agree that atheism is a religion, or whether the US military classes it as such, that doesn't make it so.
3. You have failed to answer my question. I asked you what atheists believe. You responded by stating that some atheists you know "beleive in" charity and social work. Where is the centralized ideal characteristic to a religion? Where is the dogma? Where are the recitations of faith? Where is the creed? Surely, if atheism is a religion, you can find some statement of faith that at least the vast majority of atheists would agree with and adhere to...

Atheism is not a religion, but rather it is the absence of religion. The only reason that so many in this world believe otherwise is because their worldview simply cannot incorporate a non-religious position.

[Wait Wut]

138. You have an agenda.

The Atheists I know, don't. Feel free to follow yours. I didn't fail to answer your question. You failed to understand my opinion. Enjoy your arrogance, I will celebrate tolerance and will continue to persue tolerance in every faith or non-faith. Guess what? I have more on my side.

Good luck, good life.

[darkstar3]

139. You're the one who's pigeonholing and I have an agenda, that's rich.

I understand your opinion quite perfectly. The fact that you can't express it in the form of an actual answer to my questions is not my fault.

[PassingFair]

141. I know you mean well here.

But try to think of Atheism more of a philosophy than
a "religion".

Atheism is about acceptance and awareness of our natural world
and our actions.

Since there is no confession or "forgiveness" of "sins", atheists
tend to want to abide by whatever "rules" that let us sleep at night.

A "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" mindset.

By the way, most Wiccans that I know do NOT classify their
beliefs as a "religion" either. They praise no god, and their
beliefs are myriad.

[joanbarnes]

105. Amen and Thank God. This is my story.

[Odin2005]

113. You are NOT a good person if you act ethically out of fear of punishment.

You aren't a bad person, either, really, you are just emotionally immature.

[av8rdave]

122. I remember reading something that I think Vonnegut wrote about humanism

He said that humanists believe that compassion and good behavior should not be based on fear of punishment or anticipation of reward.

I much prefer the idea of doing right because it's the right thing to do.

[Tikki]

123. This certainly true....

in our experience.

The Tikkis

[BlancheSplanchnik]

127. particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.

Exactly!!

No surprise... many religions place themselves (and their mediators between "the divine" and "the rest of the followers") as authorities on what people should do. The more fundamentalistic a religion is, the more people use it to substitute its rigid values for their own PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

they help people IGNORE what they know in their hearts is right, they teach people to devalue themselves and their own wisdom, they teach people to FEAR LIFE and OTHER PEOPLE and instead give themselves over to the rules of their belief system, with the promise that by doing so, they purchase some kind of celestial favor.

Followers learn to serve the ideology--an abstract fantasy-- rather than serve to help and encourage other living beings.

[HolyCity2012]

129. Al Franken Talks About God

U.S. Senator Al Franken's address on June 27, 2010, to attendees of the 2010 General Assembly of the Unitarian Universalist Association.


Part I


Part II