The Times: Catholic Church No Longer Swears By Truth Of The Bible

[Mark E. Smith]

The Times (London - UK) 10/05/05

THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshipers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect "total accuracy" from the Bible.

"We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision," the say in "The Gift of Scripture."

The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, particularly in the US.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin's theory of evolution in schools, believing "intelligent design" to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began,

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country's Catholic bishops insist cannot be "historical." At most, they say, they may contain "historical traces."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html

You just never know where some people will come down on this issue. I wonder how the Evangs will reply? And is this an answer to Fundamentalist Christian proselytizing in the UK? And what will the counterparts/superiors of these UK Catholic Bishops in Rome have to say?

Questions, questions.

[JuniperLea]

1. this will go over like a led zeppelin with the fundies!

but then, they don't care much for the catholics anyway.

[benburch]

3. Exactly so...

They see the Vatican as the Seat of Satan on Earth.

[jaysunb]

9. And they'll forget they're a desendent of same church.

Of course, most have no clue as to how their denomination came about or where it came from.

Martin Luther ???? who dat ??? :rofl:

[saracat]

2. I was raised as a Catholic and we were ALWAYS told that the Old Testament

was a myth or an allegory. This isn't exactly revolutionary for the Catholic Church.

[norml]

10. We were taught that not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally.

That's the way it's always been.

[Mark E. Smith]

53. I was raised a Unitarian ...

... and we were basically taught that God is out there somewhere, but He isn't really all that concerned with the day to day affairs of mankind. And that if God really did concern Himself with our daily behavior, or what we wear, or how we cut our hair, or what exactly it is we say when we are praying to Him and the dance we were doing during prayer, then He must be a very petty God and we'd all be in trouble because chances are none of us would get it right.

Very liberating stuff.

[mcar]

12. Same here

I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools and a Jesuit college. We were never taught to take the Bible literally; it was never an issue.

Too many people confuse Catholicism with fundamentalism. While it is true that the Catholic church today is far more fundamentalist than it was in the 60s and 70s when I was growing up, it is not a fundamentalist, evangelical church.

That said, I no longer practice Catholicism because of its handling of the crimes against children and its extreme rightward bent of recent years.

[yorkiemommie1]

37. same here

never had any problems w/ abortion issues, evolution issues etc, growing up Catholic. however, because of issues posters have cited, i am no longer a practicing catholic.

[MaineDem]

13. Same here

We were never encouraged to read the Bible.

[Pirate Smile]

15. Exactly. As a kid, nuns told me these were stories and parables to teach

a lesson - the parts the fundies use to preach intolerance and hate were never mentioned.

I guess that is why, according to some groups, all the Catholics are going to hell. Plus, I've only been born once. I thought Mom did a pretty good job the first time.:)

[ArbustoBuster]

18. Agreed

I went to Catholic high school (as an atheist - boy, was that fun!) and in the theology classes the teachers explicitly and repeatedly stated that the Bible wasn't inerrant, and that much of it was divinely-inspired parables meant to teach people how to live and worship.

And they also said, openly and explicitly, that evolution was perfectly logical.

[LostinVA]

23. Same here -- and same for when I taught CCD in the

80's and early 90's. I was even taught (early 70's) that parts of the NT were also not completely true, even parts of the Gospel story.

[Zynx]

45. That's because Catholics take a scholarly approach to religion.

At least they generally do. Sure, Catholics develop whacky positions, but at least you don't usually hear a Catholic say that the Bible is literally true.

[dalaigh lllama]

46. Same here. This is old news

That was the stance of every theology class I took in Catholic institutions 30-35 years ago -- the Bible was not a history book.

[Zhade]

49. So Noah's Ark was a myth, and Jesus' alleged resurrection isn't?

How does a believer reconcile the obvious contradiction there?

Seriously, how does a believer decide which myth is "true"?

[Dorian Gray]

60. Some of it was seen

as actual historical documentation. But, the creation story is widely accepted as allegorical, as is Noah's Ark.

[davidinalameda]

4. the fundies will blow a collective gasket

and then ignore their differences and proceed to move on with their theocracy

wonder if the Church has staked out which parts of the world they want

[tatertop]

5. god is going to take away their part out of the book of life

for saying this. That's what it says in revelations 22:19.
The bible says you must accept every word.
Pretty scary idea.

[Dhalgren]

11. Hahahahahah! You have to use a "sarcasm" smilie when you

say things like that.

:rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. I REALLY hope you're being sarcastic. (nt)

[tatertop]

36. You bet

I wonder if anyone here believes that?

[Democrats_win]

6. They've also changed interpretations: Lazarus & the Rich man parable

The catholic church always said this story told by Jesus (Luke 16:19-31) showed that people went to a hell. However, they've recently admitted that it's just a parable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus
"Catholic exegetes (extensive and critical interpretation) now commonly accept the story as a parable" (CE 1910, "Lazarus") "The purpose of the parable is to teach us the evil result of the unwise neglect of one's opportunities."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_and_Dives
Opponents of soul sleep like to quote this passage. They argue that it shows that the saved are in heaven and the damned in hell immediately after death, while others are still alive on the earth. Soul sleep defenders (e.g. Seventh Day Adventists) and Christian Universalists argue that it is a parable referring to Jewish and Gentile views of the Messiah. Some soul sleep defenders claim simply that it should not be read as teaching doctrine about what happens after death, only morals. Opponents of soul sleep (i.e. most Christians) argue that parables do in fact teach doctrine, not only morals.

[Bridget Burke]

7. "How Rome hates the infallible Bible" by Ian Paisley

He knew about these Popish errors long ago.

www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=hates

And he thinks the King James Version is the only TRUE version. (I prefer it for the poetry.)

Another former Catholic--we were always taught that it was not literally true!

[Jackpine Radical]

The King James version IS the only True Bible.

After all, if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.

[brentspeak]

24. It is quite silly how some view the KJV as "God's authoritative word"

It, along with Shakespeare's First Folio, are the two greatest works of the English language (released just ten years apart from one another). But even the translators knew their translation was inaccurate.

A lot of fundamentalists believe that other Bible translations are the work of Satan. One southern preacher back in the 1950's even publicly burned the RSV.

[Ignis]

39. All non-heretics agree. The rest will be burned.

What other language would our blonde-haired, blue-eyed Saviour use?

[Ezlivin]

8. Boy will they have egg on their face when Jesus returns next week

After all, the Rapture's already been scheduled and the invitations sent out. At least that's what the trustworthy guy in the expensive suit on my TV's faith channel says.

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. And I was looking forward to going out as a pillar of salt. Nuts. nt

[Francine Frensky]

16. Please change the title of your post. This is nothing new!!

You are making it look like the catholics are flip-floppers, when in fact this has always been their position (ok, "always" is a dangerous word, but you know what I mean). I've taught Sunday School for a long, long time, Catholic,and I should know, believe me.

[brentspeak]

19. Jews don't take the Hebrew Bible literally

In Judaism, the stories of Genesis, Noah's Ark, Moses parting the Red Sea, etc., have always be viewed as allegories, parables, that conveyed wisdom and knowledge about God and man. Those who take the Bible literally don't seem aware that the people who wrote their Bible never intended it to be taken literally.

[Zhade]

50. Why is it necessary to take the "there is a god" part literally, then?

Why don't religions see that as a parable, too?

[Az]

51. Some don't, I can introduce you to an atheist Rabbi if you like

Rabbi Sherwin Wine. Humanistic Judaisim. http://www.shj.org/wine.htm

[matthewf]

20. I got my rapture Ticket

And I already folded my clothes to save god time!

[Extend a Hand]

38. so, can I have your car?

(I love that bumper sticker)

welcome to du. :hi:

[dickthegrouch]

59. Weren't clothes the original sin?

Oh no, silly me; that was apple eating which led to clothes wearing.

[hwmnbn]

21. So the Catholic Church is getting weirded out...

about the bible. They've always been a little "out there" when it came to that infallibility deal. I could've told them that when I was an altar boy. In fact I DID try to tell them. LOL :evilgrin:

[patcox2]

26. What in the world do you mean?

This is nothing new at all.

Maybe thats why they wouldn't listen to your words of wisdom as an alter boy, they were based on misaprehensions.

[Fridays Child]

22. Do I smell a "Great Schism" between fundy Catholics and fundy Protestants?

Cool. I'll side with whichever faction moves to Avignon.

[patcox2]

25. Wow, only 500 years after the fact!

Any perception you might have that there is any love or alliance between fundies and catholics is completely wrong, with the exception of some fringe, single issue groups within each faith (abortion nutjobs).

[Zynx]

28. Most Catholics really hate fundie Protestants

We don't like being called Satanists.

[Az]

29. I have met both stripes of Catholics

There are fundie Catholics as there are liberal Catholics.

[Zynx]

43. Catholics are like Democrats. We have a lot of different types.

[Az]

47. I even know an atheist Catholic

But due to social and family pressures she cannot openly step away from the Church.

I aslo happen to know an atheist Rabbi.

Its really hard to tell the nature of a person from just one label.

[shrike]

56. Fundie Catholics are not necessarily bad people

My aunt and uncle, sweet but very conservative Catholics, learned that their only daughter is gay. They embraced her and her new partner fully, bringing them to family gatherings, participating in a commitment ceremony. Sometimes I wonder how they deal with it -- must be quite a culture shock; one Christmas she even took them to see the Gay Men's Chorus.

[Az]

57. Even fundies can be quite nice, the problem is time

In a progressive society a fundamentalist will watch as their society is ripped away from them. Moral corruption will overtake everything they believe to be true. Of course from the point of view of those in the society it is not corruption. It is learned enlightenment.

Its the difference between believing everything you need to know is in the bible and every thing you need to know is learned by living.

[CatholicEdHead]

48. Yes and no

Many of the "fundie" Catholics we often hear about are often late in life converts from Fundie Protastant sects. They are drawn towards the ability to go even more conservative/tradionalist than some Fundie churches offer. They are quite often the ones obessesed with ceremony and procedure.

I have not know that many Catholics from birth who have gone off this end.

Since many of those, who do have influence in many "Catholic" media (EWTN, Relevent Radio, Ave Maria Radio, etc...), they have "found" lots of "common ground" with fundie Protanstantism and many of those shows to me sound like retooled Fundie radio shows just tweaked every now and then for Catholics, much of the rest if the same.

[MADem]

34. Yep--could work to the world's advantage

I think the Catholics have been uneasy about the cozying up by the fundies for political purposes. Let 'em fight it out and wind up hating each other~! Could get interesting....

[Az]

27. Thats a bit of a bombshell

Catholic church seems to be learning the lesson of bending instead of trying to fight change. Hopefully there will be further changes including accepting socially progressive ideas.

[arwalden]

30. That Whole 'Earth-Revolving- Around-The-Sun' Thing Must Still Sting...

... a little bit.

Although such an announcement is welcome, I'm suspicious. I can't imagine that the Vatican is anything other than anti-science.

[Az]

31. The previous pope acknowledged evolution as true

Admittedly he reserved special circumstances for the case of humans. But progress is progress.

[shrike]

54. Mendel was a monk

And I've met priests and other clergy who are biologists, astronomers, etc.

Despite the church's completely bone-headed moves in the past and of late, it's not necessarly anti-science.

[Pirate Smile]

32. No, it isn't. This is what the Catholic Church has always said. It isn't

new. Fundies and Catholics aren't the same.

This alliance between the two that the Republicans have tried to create is a joke.

It is like the Republicans trying to get African-Americans to vote for them - the reaction of both should be the same - "I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, I know what you guys really think of me".

[Az]

35. As I said above, I have met both liberal and fundamentalist Catholics

An official pronouncement goes a long ways in the Catholic Church and is very welcome in this case.

[trotsky]

52. The reaction should be that, but it's not.

Helped, in part, by the Catholic leadership saying that it's a worse sin to support abortion rights than it is to kill innocent people in a war or scuttle social programs that help feed the poor.

[shrike]

55. Not really

As I've said in other posts, I learned about evolution in catholic school, from nuns.

This is nothing new, though for some reason it's getting publicity.

[Inland]

33. ALSO NEWS; POPE CATHOLIC, BEARS SHIT IN WOODS!!!!!! HUGH!!!

Does anybody understand that the term "fundamentalist" isn't just another word for "christian"?

Does anyone get really excited about the discovery of doctrinal differences between catholics and protestants?

Is it just me, or is this really, really basic stuff?

[BamaBecky]

40. Now they have really gone and done it!

You just wait till my relatives hear about this!

I have been trying to tell them that GAWD didn't fax the Bible down to us.......

Bama

:P

[melody]

41. They may need to explain that to the Holy See

...but dollars to donuts, the vast majority of Catholics have already figured out that bit of "wisdom".

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. As long as there is a Roman Catholic Church,

and however many liberal priests would have it otherwise, it will teach the existence of a Heaven and a Hell; and that we are all destined for one or the other.

Christ himself tirelessly preached this, as reported in the four Gospels, and he was Truth, itself, personified.

As regards the inerrancy of Scripture, I believe that the Catholic Church teaches that, from Abraham onwards, the Old Testament is substantially historical. Before Abraham, the Bible is allegorical. There are also, I believe, one or two books, such as Jonah and (I'm not sure, but I believe) Tobit, which are held to be apocryphal, i.e. presumably, fabulous or allegorical in intent.

Perhaps, the Church allows that there may be inaccuracies of detail. I don't know. It would be reasonable to expect the possibility, since defectible human beings are the agency of their transcription, and we are not always perfect media of the Holy Spirit.

[dretceterini]

44. Religious war!

How about a food fight with communion wafers?

[Joe Chi Minh]

58. You gat it!