Gay Christians -- please answer me this

[wtmusic]

What does Christianity offer you?

According to Leviticus, homosexuality is a sin. So having consensual sex with another member of the same sex is kind of like stealing, or lying.

Who needs that shit? As a straight man I certainly don't, and I can't imagine why any gay man or woman would either.

[jonnyblitz]

1. no shit. i agree..

but you will be told that "real" christians don't pay attention to the old testiment, that the new testament nulls and voids out the old testament, or something like that. :shrug: I am gay and atheist all the way.

[wtmusic]

2. It never fails to amaze me

the extent people will twist, distort, and rationalize to hold on to deep-seated beliefs, usually instilled during early childhood.

[RC]

12. "Real Christians" believe as you do. Otherwise they aren't real Christians

Which explains why there are so many different churches with their version of "...only one way to get to Heaven." You'd think more people would stumble to the fact that maybe religion itself is bunk.

[meg]

3. I don't accept your interpretation of the bible

Why should I? God gave me free will for a reason. What is the fun of having just a bunch of human sock-puppets, unless you are a Republican.

[Touchdown]

4. It also says "Love your fellow man."

So there!:P

Seriously though, you have it wrong. What Leviticus 18 is saying, the whole in context chapter, is admonitions of idloatry. Historically, the religions of the promised land were fertility cults, and many temples used homosexual priests as well as women, since men couldn't get pregnant. Verse 22 is part of many admonitions of sacrificing seed to another god/goddess, not homosexuality, which was a concept not invented until the mid 1900s.

Abomonation translated from ancient hebrew is To'ebah...with means idolatry.

Much of those 5 passages known throughout the old and new testaments are condemnations of idolatrous sacrificing of seeds to temple prostitutes, including the male prostitutes.

The only reference of men loving men is in Samuel, where Jonathan and David (soon to be king) had a sexual relationship that the Bible celebrated. Ruth and Naomi was another celebrated love story between women.

I don't believe 3/4 of what the Bible says anyhow, so for me much of this is a moot point, but I love tripping up the fundies when they throw the old Leviticus shit around. My motto...God doesn't write books.

[CTyankee]

6. I don't care but, weren't Ruth and Naomi

daughter in law and mother in law?

[Igel]

7. Well, yes.

They were.

And most of Leviticus 18 rules out things like incest (brother/sister, son/mother), sex during menstruation, and (immediately following the blip under discussion) bestiality. As well as either passing kids through the fire or sacricifing them to Moloch, the distinction being, I think, one of uncertainty as to what is actually meant.

[CTyankee]

9. Again, it wouldn't bother me if they were

lesbians, but I never got the hint that they were. I just thought that they were close because of familial bonds. It is a beautiful story, no matter what the meaning.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. Leviticus is a Hebrew book

Jesus never said a word about homosexuality and he's the head honcho.

but I'm not gay so I don't really get to have an opinion on this

[Kahuna]

8. Not gay, but homosexuality is NOT the only sexual sin...

In the same breath with homosexuality as a sin, are: masturbation (lovers of themselves), adultery and fornication. Nowadays, most people in western civilization are guilty of at least one of these. So it doesn't pay for us to point the finger at anyone.

[Az]

10. It poses some problems for me, insite would be appreciated

The bible seems pretty consistant in claiming that god does not change. Good and Evil seem pretty fixed within the claims of the text. Even if the coming of Jesus changed what was expected I see no where that it is suggested that God changed his mind about what constituted Good and Evil.

So yes, I can see how the altered conditions would allow for more freedom of how one lives their life. But it still seems that God believes homosexuality to be Evil. Perhaps believe is too weak a word. God still defines homosexuality as Evil. I personally disagree with this position. But then I am told we do not define morallity. God does.

How does one resolve such a conflict? Do you disgard the statements in the bible that you do not find acceptable? Do you believe you know the true mind of God? What would you think of a god that did define homosexuality as Evil? What about other aspects of good and evil that you hold to be true? What if there was something that you truly believed was evil and yet you found that God declared it to be Good?

A lot of questions to be sure. But they are simply issues that occur to me. I expect they have occurred to others as well. As I do not have to resolve them I am curious as to how others have.

[Kahuna]

11. In short, God believes a lot of things that people do every day..

are evil. Yet, hypocrites point to homosexuality because it's an outward display, unlike lying, stealing and coveting. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I'm sure that you have read or heard that before. It's in the Bible.

If men could be perfect and sinless there would have been no need for Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. We need to all stop trying to judge others because we will all have something to be judged for. The Bible tells us that. It also tells us that those who are so pious and sure that they will see God will not see God because God hates "religion." And they just practice "religion" to be seen of men. Not to be seen of God.

on edit:
I understand your angst. After becoming a born again Christian, I had years of it. I wanted to be perfect. But besides my sexual appetite there were just too many things the Bible says are bad that I do every day. (e.g. vanity and wordly pleasures), that I could not overcome. I wasn't prepared to give up my glamourous appearance (vanity) or worldly pleasures (watching TV and movies and listening to popular music).

If a person were to completely follow the Bible, we would forego ALL vanity and all worldly pleasures. How many people who claim to be born again, actually do that?

[Disturbed]

14. People following a book written by primitive people.

It seems that most humans have not advance much is 5K years. Many still believe in primitive concepts. Anyone that believes that this book is the actual word of a God is not a rational thinking being because this book is replete with start contradictions and fairy tales.

I have studied the ancient religion of the Egyptians and the Judeo/Christian bible. How many people stil believe in the Egyptian Religion today? Those people believed in their religion as ferverently as people believe in their various religions today. It's all invention of the mind to make sense of life, to bring order and structure to life.

[Kahuna]

16. You know what? Faith is a personal; thing. You should mind your

own business about what other people believe and worry about just you. You can tell people that it's a fairy tale all you want, but I could counter with testimonies about how I *KNOW* that God is real because of my own personal experiences. So back off. You don't want to believe. I don't care. But don't tell me that I'm ignorant because I do.

On edit:
And another thing, you talk about "primitive" people. The first thing I noticed when I began reading the Bible from cover to cover is that the heart of man has never changed. So what do you mean by "primitive?" Primitive because they didn't have modern conveniences? Because believe me, THAT is the only difference. So before you start dismissing something that you apparently have never read, maybe you should read it first. Then we can discuss it.

[Az]

15. The problem is still there

Good and Evil. You have your understanding of what is good and evil and God preportedly has his definition of Good and Evil. There is the acknowledgement that people cannot be perfect. But that is where the problem comes in.

Your understanding of good and evil give you the perspective by which you see the world around you. It is how you judge other's actions. It defines how you feel about others. You are convinced that God is good. But this is not based on direct interaction with God. It is based on your reasoned consideration of what you believe God must be (barring communion with God which as a skeptic I trust you understand I would construe as likely something other than a communion outside your mind).

See the problem is that there seems to be a presumption that not only can one understand God but also that one would approve of what God considers good. Consider this. God requests numerous burnt sacrifices in the OT. He even is declared to favor the order of burnt offerings such as goats. Do you suppose heaven is infused with the smell of burnt goats that God so enjoys?

This is not meant to be dismissive. It is an attempt to put the issue in another form to enable us to have a different take on it. What if you meet god and his sense of Good and Evil is so alien to yours that you cannot accept it as good in your beliefs.

It really boils down to whether good and evil are absolutes or if it is morally relativistic. Whichever the case maybe it is almost by definition that you sense of good and evil cannot be the same as God's.

[Kahuna]

17. You are making too much out of it and refuse to get the point of

why Jesus came. Jesus came because it is impossible for men to discern true righteousness and live up to it. Jesus' admonition to us is simple. It's not hard. You're stuck in the rituals of the old testament. Don't do that. Read the beattitudes. That's it in a nutshell. Do your best. Love your brother as you would love your self. Don't hate. Be kind to the less fortunate. Stop trying to make it harder than it needs to be.

[Az]

18. Honestly not refusing to get the point

I am happy you have found resolution in your beliefs that work for you. I am merely exploring ideas within the construct of various beliefs. I fear I may be placing too much pressure in this subject so I will humbly back down from it.

Peace

[trotsky]

19. The difficulty

"Read the beattitudes. That's it in a nutshell."

But that's just your interpretation. Nothing more, nothing less. Others have a different interpretation of your book of ancient oral stories written and rewritten, copied and recopied, edited, re-edited, copied again, then re-edited a few more times.

I'm glad that you can find in Christianity those elements that are good and life-affirming and progressive. But others can just as easily find the elements they desire. You both will scream at the other that THEY aren't interpreting it correctly. What's a non-believer to think?

[onager]

20. Non-believers are supposed to keep quiet!

Check the last few posts. When we're uppity enough to actually DISCUSS religion in here, we are supposed to "mind our own business" and "back off." Of course, that was followed by the usual goopy Jesus Commercial exhorting us to "read the Beatitudes."

Now there's some helpful advice (insert Sarcasm smilie here). I was raised Southern Baptist. I had read the whole Bible before I got to Seventh Grade.

The problem is NOT that we haven't read The Magic Book. In fact, it's just the opposite. Most of us atheists have read the Bible enough to know it's highly overrated--as a guide to morality or anything else.

[kweerwolf]

13. Try reading Boswell's 'Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality'

There are several alternate interpretation of Levitical law and the story of Sodom.

For one thing, the phrase that has been translated as refering to homosexuality may actually mean pagan temple prostitution (which involved prostitutes of either sex).

There's also the idea that the writers of Leviticus had no understanding of sexual orientation. To them everyone was "straight" and to behave in an different way was to go against "nature." Now that we have a greater understanding of sexual orientation, we understand that gays and lesbians are doing what is natural for them.

Even the story of the destruction of Sodom has several different interpretation.

For one, the verb "to know" (as when the crowd asked Lot to send the angels out so that they may "know" them) doesn't necessary mean in a sexual sense. It might mean something more along the line of "we are an isolated, desert city and we want to be aware of the people who are in our city to be assured they are not enemies."

Even if "to know" is used in the sexual sense, a literal interpretation of the verse could be read as condemning gang rape - gay or straight.

And finally, if homosexuality was such a major reason for Sodom's destruction, why do later books of the Bible (Ezekial, for instance) refer to the sins of Sodom as pride and inhospitality to strangers with nary a mention of gangs of gay rapists?