Atheists sue to block Texas governor from promoting Christian prayer rally

[struggle4progress]

Kris Alingod
July 14, 2011 11:45 am EDT

... The Freedom From Religion Foundation filed its lawsuit on behalf of members residing in the Lone Star State, accusing Perry of providing official recognition to a religious event. It says the governor is “giving the appearance that the government prefers evangelical Christian religious beliefs over other religious beliefs" and that "nonbelievers are political outsiders.”

The case before the Southern District Court of Texas is expected to be assigned a judge by next week ...

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90054217?Atheists%20sue%20to%20block%20Texas%20governor%20from%20promoting%20Christian%20prayer%20rally

[RKP5637]

1. Excellent!!! n/t

[provis99]

2. "giving the appearance"?

Perry would require enforced Protestant fundamentalism if he could get away with it.

[okasha]

8. And lose the conservative Catholic vote?

I doubt it.

As far as I can tell, Perry has no actual religious convictions. He'd declare a day in honor of the Flying Spaghetti Monster if it would bring him a substantial amount of money and number of votes.

[trotsky]

9. It's so convenient to simply declare everyone you don't like a non-believer.

Of course, that is also a form of religious bigotry. We DUers should be better than that.

[sakabatou]

3. I remember a teenager trying to do the same thing at her school

The school prayer went on. She was harassed by students and possibly thrown out of her house. I don't know clearly about the details.

[struggle4progress]

4. From the time I was in fourth grade, I refused to participate in school prayers.

Lots of people didn't like that. I figured so what?

[sakabatou]

5. Apparently time marched backwards at her school

[backscatter712]

7. Are you talking about the Damon Fowler case?

Maybe something similar.

Anyways, Damon wrote a letter to the school administration objecting to a prayer in the graduation ceremony. It was officially nixed, in favor of a moment of silence, but one of the other students, in wink-and-nudge defiance, stepped up and recited the Lord's Prayer.

Damon was thrown out of his house by his fundie parents, and moved in with his sister in Texas. The FFRF, and the community of atheists on Reddit, Facebook and elsewhere came up with a scholarship fund for him, so he can go to college.

[edhopper]

6. If Texas were part of the United States

this would be unconstitutional.

[struggle4progress]

10. It's tasteless pandering under any circumstances, but I doubt if it rises to a constitutional issue:

the courts are very unlikely tell Perry he can't invite folk to a privately-funded prayer gathering

But who's gonna be eager to rush off to swelter in Houston's humidity in August, especially when making the trek would be read as a declaration of support for Perry as President?

I'd guess it's a self-limiting sorta thing

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. He's the Governor and endorsing a particular religion. It is a constitutional issue.

The fact that it's privately funded does not make much difference.

I have thought about going to the National day of Prayer, for instance, which is always in a christian church, and taking out my prayer beads and chanting in Sanskrit. I bet I would be thrown out.

Houston is sweltering from April through late October. Not exactly a garden spot.

But then the Repubs had their national convention there in 1992 in August, and I think one time before that as well.

That's why Houston is a "freon-controlled life support system".

[struggle4progress]

13. If you think that is the current state of the law, you can perhaps actually cite some cases?

I think you confuse your own idea of what the law is, with what the current law actually is

[jul61252]

11. +1

[Manifestor_of_Light]

14. Look under "color of office".

Color of office refers to an act usually committed by a public official under the appearance of authority, but which exceeds such authority.

Under color of Authority:
Under color of authority is a legal phrase used in the United States<1> indicating a person is claiming or implying the acts he or she is committing are related to and legitimized by his or her role as an agent of governmental power.

The fact that the person sponsoring the event, Perry, is Governor, implies state approval and endorsement of the strictly evangelical Christian prayer meeting.

George Bush the younger said that atheists were non-citizens.

[LeftishBrit]

15. Wish they could sue him for even existing...

and how long has he been in office anyway? Most states seem to have 2-term limits for governors - is Texas the exception?

[okasha]

16. Rick Perry is perhaps the worst governor Texas has ever suffered.

Yes, worse than W., almost all of whose heavy lifting was done by other, more experienced members of the state government, who were not hellbent on destroying it.

[struggle4progress]

17. Suit over Perry's prayer event misguided

Editorial Board
Published: 7:10 p.m. Thursday, July 14, 2011

... Perry unquestionably has the right to organize such an event, though it is important that he not cross the important line between church and state. To date, it appears he has done so. Save for the use of state employees to announce Perry's participation in the event and the issuance of an official proclamation, we have seen no use of state resources in conjunction with the prayer session entitled "The Response: A Call to Prayer for a Nation in Crisis." ...

... anybody who does not appreciate his participation has the right to rail about it and vote against him.

Nobody, however, should expect a federal court to bar Perry from participating in the event, which is exactly what the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation and five of its Houston members are trying to do by way of a lawsuit filed this week ...

If the Freedom From Religion Foundation prefers government officials who share its ideology, we encourage its members to get to the polls and elect such people. They do not, however, have any legitimate claim to stifling a legitimately elected public official from expressing religious beliefs — so long as that effort does not infringe on anybody's rights nor use state dollars to do so.

http://www.statesman.com/opinion/suit-over-perrys-prayer-event-misguided-1609874.html

[struggle4progress]

18. Texas governor defends prayer day after lawsuit filed

Perry calls atheists intolerant for trying to halt his involvement in 'The Response'

... "Isn’t it just the type of intolerance to say that we can’t gather together in public to pray to our God?" Perry said Thursday. "That is amazing to me.” ...

The event is being sponsored by several evangelical Christian groups, including the American Family Association, which has been criticized by civil rights groups for promoting anti-homosexual and anti-Islamic positions on the roughly 200 radio stations it operates.

Among The Response endorsers listed on its website are Pastor John Hagee of the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, who has said God sent Hitler to hunt Jews so they would return to Israel, and Mike Bickle, director of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, Mo., who has called Oprah Winfrey the harbinger of the anti-Christ ...

An appellate court in April dismissed the group's previous lawsuit against the Obama administration over the National Day of Prayer, on which people of all faiths were invited to take part. The three-judge panel ruled that the group could not prove that they had suffered any harm when the president issued a proclamation observing the day ...

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43758839/ns/politics-more_politics/

[struggle4progress]

19. Reynolds: Perry’s prayer event embarrassing

Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:50 pm
Jakob Reynolds

... One of the more notable aspects of “The Response” is that it is being organized, in tandem with Governor Perry, by the American Family Association, a controversial evangelical Christian organization notorious for it’s staunch support of conservative Christian beliefs.

AFA spokesperson Bryan Fischer has made comments on many controversial issues in the past, such as blaming homosexuals for the Holocaust and threatening Muslims with U.S. military action if they do not convert to Christianity ...

Tim Wildmon, president of the AFA, said followers of other religions are “free to have their own events,” and insisted that the AFA does not hate anyone, and that non-Christians will face eternal damnation.

One final interesting aspect of this event is it’s proximity to the straw poll in Iowa at which Perry is supposed to announce his final decision on his own presidential candidacy ...

http://www.dailytoreador.com/opinion/article_5d4fd6e4-ae52-11e0-b4e3-0019bb30f31a.html

[struggle4progress]

20. Our View: Can elected officials pray? Better believe it

Gov. Rick Perry of Texas is being sued for supporting a prayer rally. That’s ridiculous.

No matter what you think of "the separation of church and state," what's happening in Texas regarding a Christian prayer event hardly rises to the level of an offense against the Constitution ...

If Perry spent state resources on the event, there could be a cause for complaint, but the suit apparently does not allege that, saying only that politicians have no business supporting prayer.

Many Americans, religious or not, would disagree. Government neutrality toward religion is not the same as government hostility toward it.

So, officials remain free to say what they believe, and act on their beliefs, as long as their actions don't involve public facilities or funds ...

http://www.pressherald.com/opinion/can-elected-officials-pray_-better-believe-it_2011-07-15.html

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. He's a state official endorsing a particular religion.

Even though no state money is being used.

Looks like "appearance of impropriety" to me.

[struggle4progress]

23. No court will go anywhere near endorsing that argument

[humblebum]

22. However, atheists and secularists may have went too far in Texas and

incurred the wrath of the Veterans of Foreign Wars.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgY5ej-9kSg&feature=player_embedded

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Second. Third. Tenth.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. And FALSE. Read:

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/110630-va-god-allowed-at-cemetary

[humblebum]

26. the only false I see is that FAUX news is reporting, but in this case

The only thing that matters is the veracity of the claim, not who made the claim. I have belonged to the VFW for many years and I have never seen such a thing happen. And such a thing should never be tolerated, unless a specific reason is given beforehand. This is not only a violation of the free exercise clause, but one of free speech, also.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. Read the link again. Nobody is muzzling religion or mentions of God at funerals. UPDATED:

Relevant quote:

VA Press Secretary Josh Taylor issued the following statement:

"Invoking the name of God or Jesus is not only allowed, it is common at VA National Cemeteries across the country. However, VA's policy is that VA-sponsored honor guards should not make recitations at commital services unless requested to do so by the deceased's survivor(s.)'

Taylor also directed FOX 26 to a little known policy dated 2007. It says Honor Guards "shall not provide texts of any such recitations to the deceased's survivors for consideration."

[humblebum]

28. You just validated their complaint. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. So you think THAT policy is an unduly attack on religion.

That's, like, your opinion, man.

[humblebum]

33. My opinion is that NO government agency has the right to

censor any private citizen's speech period, as in the "free exercise" thereof.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. See #32.

Next of kin are free to insert whatever sayings they want.

[humblebum]

35. I should add that the VFW always asks about the deceased veteran's

and family's religion and wishes before they conduct a ceremony. If a veteran's family requests no religious references to be made, they will honor that request. That has always been standard procedure.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. From the links I posted, you'll see that ''always'' is not quite ''always''.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

29. More on the subject:

http://leanleft.com/2007/10/27/religious-busybodies-complaining-about-complaints-about-religious-busybodies-again

[humblebum]

31. The "flag folders" were not staff members of the VA. They were

private citizens - VFW members. That's the rub. NOT government employees as the article states.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. Doesn't matter -- they were acting on behalf of the VA.

Hence the (correct) decision.

All this chain forwarding (almost exclusively by right-wing sources, I may add) is deliberately crafted to make it look like they're forbidding FAMILIES to insert religious utterings. Hm, Let me take a look at that YouTube link you posted... surprise! All right-wing sources!

[humblebum]

37. The VA has NO affiliation nor power over the VFW. It is a private organization.

The VA is a government agency. They were NOT acting on behalf of the VA. No connection whatsoever. The VFW holds ceremonies in private cemeteries too.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. Take it up with the NCA. They think otherwise. Edit: AND the VA.

And I think they're right.

Department of Veterans Affairs
Date: September 27, 2007

From: Director, Office of Field Programs

Thru: Each MSN Director

To: Each Cemetery Director

Subj: The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag

It has come to my attention that cemeteries may be distributing a handout entitled, “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag” and/or posting the handout in cemetery buildings. I have also learned that our volunteer honor guards may be using the handout as a script and reciting the meaning of the thirteen folds of the flag while the interment flag is folded during the committal service.

There are various versions of the script circulating by anonymous authors. Some of those scripts are religious in nature and also ascribe meaning to the individual folds put into the flag. We have recently received a complaint sent to the President of the United States that there was a gross error in the handout with reference to the 11th fold “…glorifying the Gods Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”.

There are no federal laws related to the flag that assign any special meaning to the individual folds of the flag. The National Cemetery Administration must not give meaning, or appear to give meaning to the folds of the flag by endorsing or distributing any handouts on “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag.”

Effective immediately all national cemeteries are to refrain from distributing any handouts on “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag”; remove any postings from all cemetery buildings and discontinue our VA-Sponsored Volunteer Honor Guards from using the handout as a script at a committal service during the folding of the flag.

The only time the reading of “The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral Flag” is authorized in our national cemeteries is when the next-of-kin arranges for military honors with their local VSO and requests the reading during the committal service.

/s/

STEVE L. MURO

[humblebum]

39. The VA has no volunteer guards of its own regardless of how the heading is worded.

The volunteers that they are talking about are the VFW, who are just that - volunteers. They are a totally private organization and an advocacy group for veterans. The VA or anyone else is free to request their services on behalf of veterans. There is NO official connection. However, there are times when military personnel act as honor guards. In those cases they can be instructed what to say and do. The American Legion and DAV also participate, but are also private with no VA affiliation.

As I understand it, the VFW was conducting the ceremony(ies) in question.