"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun,

[moobu2]

in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun." - Thomas Paine, 1803–1805.

The idea that Christianity might be based on an astrological allegory is nothing new, matter of fact, from it’s beginnings, the church had to answer questions about the similarities Christianity had to earlier mystery cults floating around the Mediterranean which were well known to be astrological allegory. Another example of the type of astrological allegory would be "The Twelve Labors of Hercules". Originally, like the famous Hercules story, Christianity was simply an allegory telling the tale of the sun as it traveled through the 12 signs of the zodiac at the dawn of the age of Pisces (the fish) and the end of the age of Aries (the ram). For instance, the story of the virgin birth is an allegory concerning the sun ascending in Virgo (virgo giving birth to the sun), Aquarius, with water constantly pouring out of his jug, would be John the Baptist, and when it was said that he was beheaded, what happened was simply that the portion of the figure that represented the head of the constellation Aquarius was behind the horizon at one point. And on and on.. There’s plenty of well researched information about this on the net.

The Gospels were written later, sometime around when the Jews were being severely repressed and expelled by their Roman occupiers, to make the Christ mystery cult about the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. The Bible was put together over 300 years later by picking and choosing older texts and placing them out of order to tell story that never actually happened. By that time though, no one probably knew that it was all based upon an astrological allegory. Constantine saw the value in the conversion aspect of Christianity in that people who were converted usually assumed a common cultural identity and were easier and much less expensive than to control militarily. Later still, power in the Roman Empire shifted back to Rome where the Pope’s replaced the Emperor (but were basically the same thing) and the rest is a history full of tortured burning bodies.

This is a pretty good website to read about it. http://www.usbible.com/usbible/default.htm

[ZombieHorde]

1. The Sun is a literal higher power. nt

[Warpy]

2. What has always amazed me about the Jesus myth in the NT

is that some of the teaching came through the mythic mishmash of Hercules, Mithras, Zoroaster, and Osiris.

The highest of divine laws being to love your neighbor was radical for the time, that one would be judged at the end of time for how one treated strangers rather than family, clan or tribe.

Unfortunately, most Christians groove on the myth to the exclusion of the teaching. I suppose it's easier that way.

[okasha]

3. Unfortunately for Paine and others, this doesn't hold up very well.

Just for starters, the sun is "born" in Capricorn, not Virgo. Astrologically and archetypally, the sun "dies" either at summer solstice (six months after its birth) or in Leo (harvest), not at spring equinox.

[earthside]

4. Capricorn? Virgo? Leo?

Constellations are human constructs ... the way somebody decides to arrange stars to represent something that is important to them.

Astrology is a system of belief and faith just like the Christianity that Paine criticized.

[moobu2]

6. Yeah, Christianity being an astrological allegory like so many other dead religious beliefs

just doesn't make as much sense as say... mmmm I don't know, pick any crazy Bible story like Someone walking on water or someone reanimating after 70 something hours of being dead or like Some chick getting impregnated by a God but never did the nasty... lol.

[Goblinmonger]

7. If there was a historical Jesus (there wasn't)

he certainly wasn't a winter birth. Even the description of his birth in the bible is not a winter birth. The shepherds were tending to their lambs. That DOES NOT happen in December. And you think that Jesus died on the first sunday after the first full moon after the equinox? That doesn't even make sense. Couldn't be that those dates were chosen to co-opt other religions because they coincided with their major holidays? No, that can't be it.

[okasha]

8. It's been a truism for some time that the "shepherds in the field"

narrative couldn't have happened in winter. On the other hand, I see no problem with his death at Passover because Passover had already become a flashpoint between Jews in Jerusalem for the observance and the Roman garrison. There was already a strong nationalist movment afoot--at least a couple of Jesus' disciples belonged to it, one of them possibly his brother--and the Romans were wary of political and religious disturbances. If anything remotely resembling the Biblical account of his entry into Jerusalem happened, or he otherwise incited a riot, then he must have known what was likely to happen. It's the ancient archetype of the king sacrifice, and Jesus seems to have embraced it and even actively courted it. The relevant date is Passover, not the equinox itself.

[moobu2]

9. Where do you get your information from?

[okasha]

11. Crossan, Dever, Chilton, Maier,Schonfield, Josephus, Philo.

et alia.

[trotsky]

13. Do you acknowledge the forged bits of some authors? n/t

[okasha]

14. Specify.

n/t

[trotsky]

15. Josephus in particular.

Do you think a Jewish historian wrote that he thought Jesus was the messiah?

[okasha]

17. I seriously doubt it, given that he seems to have thought the honor

belonged to Vespasian.

[Taverner]

25. Josephus was forged

That's been accepted knowledge for some time

[okasha]

28. Small passages of Josephus are accepted as later interpolations.

There is no indication that his work as a whole is "forged."

[Taverner]

29. Correct, but everything about Jesus was forged

[okasha]

32. That's not how current scholarship views it.

But by all means, enjoy your personal fantasy.

[Taverner]

33. Any links to support that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Early Christian writers other than Origen

It has been suggested by older scholarship that since Justin Martyr makes no mention of the Testimonium in his efforts to persuade the rabbi Trypho in the Dialog With Trypho the Jew,<42> the text must not have existed, since it would have been an "extremely effective answer" <22> to Trypho. However, there is no evidence that Justin Martyr knew Josephus' works: Josephus is never mentioned in his genuine works.<43> Also there is no evidence that any early Christian apologists used Josephus' works in apologies directed at Jews.<44> Early writers such as Eusebius of Caesarea and Jerome do not draw on the Testimonium for anti-Jewish apologetic reasons; rather, they use the text for anti-pagan apologetics.<45> The earliest use of the Testimonium for anti-Jewish disputation appears in an anonymous late 4th century Latin text, known conventionally as Pseudo-Hegesippus's 'De excidio Hierosolymitano.'.<46>

...
Other unique passages in the Old Russian version of "Jewish War" include accounts of John the Baptist, Jesus's ministry (along with his death and resurrection), and the activities of the early church.

[okasha]

36. You've cherry-picked the article I was about to refer you to.

:rofl:

Go back and look at the rest of it, specifically the detailed discussions of the James passage and Geza Vermes' opinion on the Testemonium. Incidentally, Crossan agrees with the material that you've so conveeeeeeeeeeniently left out.

Leontius is right. You're a real comedian.

[Taverner]

37. What the Wikipedia article didn't mention was...

That the experts who argue that Josephus' account was partially true, all came from religiously backed universities. Notre Dame, SMU, etc...

Bias, esentially

[okasha]

42. Well, let's see.

Vermes teaches at Oxford.

Crossan is retired. He quit the priesthood rather than submit to censorship. He does not attend church because he's now married. His work has been called "blasphemy." I wouldn't be surprised if Ratzinger gets around to excommunicating him one of these days.

Feldman teaches at Yeshiva University, obviously a hotbed of Christian fundamentalism.

RIght about now, it should occur to you that there's a very good reason the article didn't "mention" that these scholars "came from religiously backed universities."

[sudopod]

38. Put the Saturn back in Saturnalia. :3 nt

[Ikonoklast]

5. You anger Mithras with your heresies.

May he smite you down.

[frogmarch]

22. Hey, I like that!

The next time one of my Christian in-laws gets in my face about not being saved, I am going to say, "You anger Mithras with your heresies!"

haha, love it. Thanks!

If they persist, I'll add the "May he smite you down" part.

[tortoise1956]

52. Don't forget Cthulhu

I hear he has a short temper...

[frogmarch]

53. I want to also say

Cthulhu, but I don't know how to pronounce Cthulhu.

I'm now watching a documentary about H.P. Lovecraft, hoping the narrators will say it, but so far, no one has. Chickens.

[dimbear]

59. I remember reading somewhere that Lovecraft pronounced it

tull loo

[frogmarch]

60. Thanks! I will

too now.

[dimbear]

10. Parody is an unfortunate choice of words. Clever thieves protect themselves by saying

homage.

[struggle4progress]

12. Since you post claims like this regularly here, you obviously find something compelling in the idea

We've discussed this enough previously, so I think I won't bother to argue with you about this again, other than to notice that the webpage you linked is libertarian crackpot:

... Rand predicted government interference in the market economy would eventually destroy it. It was the second most influentual book next to the Bible. Its message was never more important than it is today ... World temperatures have been dropping, and eminent climate experts have been scorning the "consensus" claim ... AIG was in effect, nationalized, stolen from the stockholders. The money was spent without approval from Congress. This action sets a precedent for any arbitary nationalization ...

[moobu2]

16. The websites political, social, environmental, economic

or any other opinions are irrelevant to the facts. There are plenty of other websites with information about Christianities astrological roots too... Google it.

[okasha]

18. And none of them that I've seen

stands up to any kind of critical examination.

[moobu2]

19. Do you use that same critical examination super power standards on the Bible? lol

[okasha]

20. Yes.. As do scholars whose field it is.

One of the reasons for the "fundamentalist atheist" label is that there is a substantial segment of that population that accepts nonsense such as the "Jesus and the Zodiac" blather uncritically--just as Christian fundies accept Genesis and Exodus as literal.

Just for starters, the astrological year does not begin with "Jesus meeting up with John the Baptist" in Aquarius. It begins with the first point of Aries at the vernal equinox, and 25 March was for a substantial period of western history New Year's Day. And of course, if the sun in Virgo signifies Jesus' birth, then he's already had all sorts of adventures by the time he manages to get himself born. Precocious little fetus, that.

[moobu2]

21. If the Genesis fable in the Bible wasn't real

then there wouldn't be any need for God to have himself born to a virgin and then sacrifice himself as his son on the cross for mankind's inherited sin (because of ADAM!!). lol where's the critical thinking there? I cant see it.

[okasha]

23. I think a Christian would probably tell you

that Adam isn't necessary for humans to sin and require redemption. "Original sin" does not seem to undery the Jewish practice of sacrificial atonement. On another level entirely, it's quite possible to see "original sin" in the propensity for violence inherited from our australopithecine ancestors, if one wants to cling to the doctrine. (See Robert Ardrey, Africn Genesis.)

Just for the record, I don't subscribe to the literal reading of the Bible you've just indicated, being neither conservatively religious nor Christian.

[moobu2]

44. It's all built upon bronze age superstitious astrological rubbish.

It isn't my fault.

[okasha]

45. Then someone ought to be able to make a persuasive case for the idea.

So far, no one has.

[cleanhippie]

54. You say that as if the other idea is more persuasive. It's not.

[okasha]

55. Which other idea?

There are any number of ideas on this subject, some of them, like the astrological narrative, demonstrably weak.

[cleanhippie]

56. Any of them. The astrological one is the strongest of the bunch.

It at least has the most supporting evidence.

[okasha]

57. Your faith in it is a womderful thing.

n/t

[cleanhippie]

58. If that is what you need to tell yourself....

But we both know faith has nothing to do with it.

[struggle4progress]

26. The author of that webpage has all sorts of crackpot opinions, all equally unsupported:

he happens to begin the current version of the page with a paragraph or two, outlining his crackpot notions about early Christianity, but you can simply scroll down the page to find some of his other crackpot ideas

As far as I can tell, the claptrap about "astrological ages" (such as "Age of Pisces") is a Victorian-era innovation, that has nothing whatsoever to do with astrological notions in the first century Middle East. Discerning what such first century notions might have been, and addressing how/whether such notions influenced the politics and culture of the time, would be a difficult undertaking, I think: there is no obvious reason to expect Roman astrological notions to correspond to Hellenistic notions, nor is there any obvious reason to think either Roman or Hellenistic notions would correspond to any homegrown ideas in the area near Jerusalem. Adding the facts, that astrologers are charlatans and that the Roman Middle East included a broad mixture of cultures, will lead us to expect that there was no single definite astrological scheme in the first century Middle East: one should roughly anticipate about as many different schemes as astrologers. Adding next the the facts, that Rome sacked Jerusalem in the middle of the first century, and that two millennia have passed since, one cannot be optimistic about obtaining a good collection of primary sources on the subject

It is, of course, clear from the early Christian documents, that the doctrine "Christ is the paschal lamb" has nothing whatsoever to do with some "Age of Ares" but arises as an interpretation closely related to the Jewish passover narrative, namely, the lamb's blood smeared on the door posts as a sign for the Angelo of Death to pass by

[Taverner]

27. About the only crackpot opinion I can find is his goldbug stuff

Other than that, he's right about many things

[struggle4progress]

34. I hadn't known you were an Ayn Rand enthusiast and global warming denier ...

well, live and learn

:shrug:

[Taverner]

35. Didn't see the Climate Change Denial stuff...

As Per Ayn Rand, sure she's immoral and petulant, but I wouldn't call her crackpot

[sudopod]

39. Nice thread derail. 8/10 nt

[struggle4progress]

40. Do feel free to address the historical issues I raised in #26

[struggle4progress]

46. cat gotcher tongue?

[sudopod]

47. The site is run by a moron

Similar, but factual, info can be had from a million different places, though. That's what OP gets for picking the first google result, I guess. This fact, however, has no bearing on the obvious truth that a dozen different religions got there first. But you knew that, lol.

It's a shame that the OP picked a dumb site because that's all we'll hear about for the next month or two. Kind of a Dan-Rather-Incident in miniature.

Want a cookie?

[Taverner]

24. Yep. But that doesn't stop the Whiners from taking offense

"YOU BIGOT HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY GOD THAT WAY!!"

Face it, Christianity is a myth. A dangerous one at that.

[okasha]

30. Now tell us again why liberal Christians should make common cause

with someone who holds the views you've just expressed.

[Taverner]

31. Well I guess Irrational ones, prone to hysteria and persecution complex...

Might want to join their like-minded brethren in the Bachmann campaign

[dimbear]

41. April DeConick, scholar in the field discusses astrology:

http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com/2008/08/jesus-apostles-and-zodiac.html

It was in the air, you need to understand it a bit to understand the history of religion.

[okasha]

43. The four evangelists are clearly identified with signs of hte zodiac

Matthew-human figure-Aquarius

Mark-lion-Leo

John-eagle-Scorpio

Luke-bull-Taurus

This symbolism also relates to the four "living creatures" around the throne of Yahweh in Ezekiel's vision.

[struggle4progress]

48. Perhaps the symbols are taken from Ezekiel rather than the zodiac

See: http://catholic-resources.org/Art/Evangelists_Symbols.htm

Here are the images from the 7th century Lindisfarne Gospels:
http://catholic-resources.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/Evangelists/Matt-Lindisfarne.gif
http://catholic-resources.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/Evangelists/Mark-Lindisfarne.gif
http://catholic-resources.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/Evangelists/Luke-Lindisfarne.gif
http://catholic-resources.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/Evangelists/John-Lindisfarne.gif

In Latin, above Matthew -- "imago hominis" -- "image of man";
above Mark -- "imago leonis" -- "image of lion";
above John -- "imago aequilae" -- "image of eagle"

I'm not certain what is above Luke: "imago uttula," perhaps: it's not "imago tauri." Maybe "imago ut tauri" was intended -- "as the image of a bull"

The "image of man" doesn't seem to be carrying water, as one might expect Aquarius to do, but rather is blowing a horn

The constellation "Eagle" of course is not "Scorpion" -- it is a different constellation

Vettius Valens, in his second century astrology, does not confuse "Eagle" with "Scorpion" but places the scorpion in the zodiac; see http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

[okasha]

49. I believe the images in Ezekiel were taken from the zodiac,

so it's possible that the imagery for the evangelists is a secondary borrowing. The four signs in question are referred to alternatatively as the "fixed" sings and the "royal" signs," expressing archetyppes most likely to maintain faithfulness to death or to sacrifice themselves for a cause. While Aquila is a separate constellation from Scorpio, both the eagle and the phoenix are alternative images for Scorpio, expressing =the sign's regenerative nature.

[sudopod]

50. Everyone knows what the Aquila stands for.

It's the sigil of the holy God-Emperor of Mankind, who will one day reveal his true nature to the universe. Then, He and His sons will unite humanity and lead us to glory and enlightenment among the stars.

[struggle4progress]

51. Since Ezekiel dates from the era of Babylonian captivity, I suppose it's likely the text

incorporates Babylonian imagery and references

On the other hand, it would perhaps be a mistake to assume that such imagery and references, in the Hebrew text, carries Babylonian meanings unchanged. In the clearest example of such incorporation, the story of Noah -- which is in some places lifted almost word for word from Chaldean tablets -- has been reworked in important ways to make different points: the Chaldean proto-Noah, for example, becomes immortal, through his acts of saving life in a devastating flood, whereas the biblical Noah, after his heroic adventures, becomes scandalously drunk -- and eventually dies

Nor is it entirely clear that the Babylonian zodiac of that era contained the current twelve familiar constellations. The early Babylonian zodiac contained eighteen constellations, not twelve: our 360 = 6x60 degree circle derives from the Babylonian sexagesimal notation, and Babylonian arithmeticians would have preferred exact circle divisions, as is possible with an 18 part division in the earlier zodiac or the 12 part division of the later zodiac

http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_star_catalogues

In the sky-map of ancient Babylon, constellations had two different roles, and thus developed into two overlapping traditions. One set of constellations represented the gods and their symbols; the other set represented rustic activities and provided a farming calendar. Many constellations were shared by the two traditions, but in some regions of sky there were alternative divine and rustic figures. These figures developed in stages from ~3200 BC to ~500 BC. Of the divine set, the most important (although the last to be finalised) were the twelve zodiacal signs, plus several associated animals (the serpent, crow, eagle, and fish), which were all transmitted to the classical Greek sky-map that we still use today. Conversely, the rustic constellations of workers and tools and animals were not transmitted to the West ... http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1998JBAA..108....9R