What is atheism?

[tortoise1956]

Some of my recent posts, and replies I received, made it clear to me that there are many definitions of atheism. I was working off the definition I found on the American Atheists website:

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

Since that matched what I had been taught in the past, I assumed it was a valid assumption. However, it appears that this does not represent the views of many atheists. Soft atheism, hard atheism, new atheism - I don't really understand the terms, and web research is ambiguous at best if you're not sure what sources are trustworthy.

My question is this: How do you define atheism? It's not a trick question, I am sincerely interested in learning more. I promise not to argue, and I ask others to limit themselves to informational posts. If you have an issue with a post here, start another thread and fire away.

Also, if anyone can provide links to valid reference sources, I would appreciate it very much. (Please, no video links - it interrupts the wife's Farmville time!)

[arcane1]

1. "Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity" works fine for me

Agnostics would fall into that category as well.

[MineralMan]

2. We did this yesterday. It's been done hundreds of times in

this forum. I think I'll just pass, except to say that atheism is a disbelief that deities and other supernatural entities and phenomena exist. From a personal perspective, it is impossible for me to believe in such stuff.

[tortoise1956]

4. Sorry if I'm going over old ground

I'm really not trying to stir up trouble. It's just that many posters yesterday said they had different definitions than the one I used. I am trying to find out what they meant. Since I'm new to this thread, I'm not aware of what has already been posted.

Do you have an old thread, or an internet source you would care to recommend? Alternatively, perhaps a book I could find at a local library?

[Silent3]

3. Just as much a belief system as any fundamentalist religion

That's not really my opinion... just giving you want it appears you want to hear.

Will anything else satisfy you?

[tortoise1956]

5. Once again, this is a sincere request

I am trying to better understand what the different types of atheism describe. Hard, soft, new - what do these terms mean?

I'm not asking this to start an argument. I want to learn more, if anyone is willing to teach me.

[Speck Tater]

6. I've always taken atheism to be...

not "a lack of belief", but a "belief of lack".

The lack of belief is agnosticism, because agnosticism makes no pronouncements one way or the other.

Atheism makes the pronouncement "there is no god" which is more than just lack of belief, it is belief in the lack of any god or gods.

I'm not sure what I cal myself. I'm pretty sure there is no god, but I might be wrong. So I guess that makes me an agnostic since I'm not prepared to state positively and unequivocally that there is no god. I'm just simply not arrogant enough to claim to know the unknowable

[tortoise1956]

9. I wouldn't call it arrogance...

any more than I would accuse sincere Christians, or Jews, or Muslims of being arrogant. It's not my place to tell others how to think, just as I'm not going to let someone else do my thinking for me.

[trotsky]

11. FWIW, atheism makes no such pronouncement. n/t

[Speck Tater]

17. From American Atheist site...

"Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own."

Note the bold part (my emphasis): "This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature..."

This does not "we don't know if there are or aren't..." This doesn't say "we believe there are not..." This says, and I quote "THERE ARE NO ...etc." This asserts bluntly and unambiguously a belief that no god or gods exist, and goes on to assert that not only is there no god, but "nor can there be":

http://www.atheists.org/atheism

And if that isn't enough, read article after article on that same site and see just how often and how positively they declare exactly what it is that I said they declare and that you deny that they declare. They say it over and over in paper after paper and article after article. TO claim thye don't say exactly what they do say is going to be a difficult position to defend.

Don't get me wrong. I think they are probably right in their opinion, but I don't think they are justified in calling their opinion a fact. Now if they said that the biblical Judeo-Christian version of God does not exist, then I could support that wholeheartedly. That is such an absurd concept that such a God certainly does not exist. (But that's just my opinion too.)

[trotsky]

18. That's what American Atheists states.

But atheism makes no such claim. Sorry.

[Speck Tater]

20. I get it. "American Atheism" aren't REAL atheists. Makes perfect sense.

hehe

[trotsky]

21. Nope, didn't say that.

They are atheists. Not doubting it one bit. But their definition of atheism adds items that are not required to be an atheist.

[Speck Tater]

22. Don't tell me. Tell them. It's them you have a beef with.

If your definition is the correct one, then by all means point out to them the error of their ways. If you don't do it, they'll just go right on not being real atheists. Clearly it's your duty to set them straight.

[trotsky]

23. That's one of the reasons I don't belong to the organization.

They are entitled to use the word as they see fit, and they are indeed real atheists. But I am not interested in defending the straw man you have put forth, and atheists are not required in any way, shape, or form to adhere to the definition that American Atheists has chosen. Do you understand?

[Silent3]

26. "they'll just go right on not being real atheists"

Why repeat that BS when trotsky has already said they are real atheists?

Do you have a problem with the concept of a definition which is too specific? If I ask you for the definition of "teacher", you reply "someone who provides instruction in mathematics", and I then point out that not all teachers teach math, that's not the same thing as me saying "math teachers aren't real teachers".

The American Atheist definition of atheist overspecifies atheism. Anyone who fits their definition is an atheist, but not everyone who is an atheist fits that definition.

A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necessarily a square.

Are these concepts too difficult for you to grasp? Or are you just so eager to try to catch someone playing "No True Scotsman" that you'll bend and twist what they say to get there?

[trotsky]

28. Thank you, Silent3. n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

24. Atheism makes no such pronouncements, I'm an agnostic atheist...

I have no knowledge on the existence or nonexistence of any gods(agnosticism) so I don't have any belief of their existence(atheism).

[Warpy]

7. You were doing OK until "that implies."

It's a lack of belief in a deity or deities, period. It doesn't imply anything else.

[tortoise1956]

8. If you are talking about the definition I provided,

I took it straight from this website:

http://www.atheists.org/atheism

Not my words, honest.

[digonswine]

10. look--it is the lack of belief in a deity-

That is it-at least for the vast majority of atheists. You were told this in your other posts but would not see it. There is nothing more to learn.
ETA--atheists do not say there FOR SURE is no god--this would not be sensible and cannot be supported by evidence.

[tortoise1956]

13. Then what do the different terms below signify?

Hard atheism, soft atheism. What is the difference between these two? Are these different schools of thought?

I've gathered from other posts that New Atheism appears to be a phrase coined to describe those who are being more aggressive in challenging religious/supernatural viewpoints. Is that a correct interpretation?

[digonswine]

15. Hard-or strong--atheism refers to--

at least I THINK--differing degrees to which one is certain about the nonexistence of a deity. If I said that there is for sure not a god--this is quite strong. If I said that it is not too terribly likely to be a god--this is weaker atheism. Take a 1 to 10 scale--10 is--for sure no god, 1 is geez I'll keep an open mind. Most atheists fall toward the high end of the scale. I do. I find it to be VERY unlikely that there is a deity in the common sense of the word(or any sense!) BUT--I would still only be at an 8 or so on the scale. Being a 10 would imply that one is closed to the idea that there is possibly, POSSIBLY some way that there could be a creator. Anyone with a functional mind would think that--however unlikely--it is POSSIBLE that there is a god. You have heard many times that you cannot prove a negative--if one were a 10 on the scale aforementioned, you would have to assume that this negative has indeed been proven.

[progree]

27. Wikipedia on atheism - hard, soft; implicit, explicit; positive, negative (whew)

Here's one source that explains Weak and Strong atheism, and Implicit vs. Explicit atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

See the "Definitions and distinctions" section for more on this.

Some other stuff:

atheism.about.com's definitions of atheism
# http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/definition.htm

Standard Dictionaries definition of atheism
# http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/dict_standard.htm

=============================================
I call myself an atheist, because I believe in atheism (no gods, no supernatural...) with about 90% certainty. I'm not 100% sure. Likewise, most people who call themselves atheists do not say they are completely sure, according to a poll conducted by Free Inquiry.

Many Christians believe in Christianity (belief in God, in the divinity of Jesus and so on -- there is no "maybe" or "possibly" in the definitions of Christianity), but many Christians aren't 100% sure of all or any of the tenets of Christianity. We don't call Christians "arrogant" (just for being Christians) and Christians don't divide into 2 camps - "Christ-eists" for ones who are 100% sure, and "Chrisnostics" for those who aren't 100% sure. And they don't have the "Christ-eists" calling the "Christnostics" wishy-washy fence sitters. And they don't have the "Chrisnostics" calling the Christ-eists" arrogant and stupid (for claiming to know the unknowable).

I don't know why atheists got tarred and feathered with the notion that they are (arrogantly) 100% sure. Whereas in every other belief, there is no assumption that the believers are completely, absolutely, and totally 100% sure. I think it is strange that people who don't believe 100% in atheism (as most don't) feel the need to find some other name (like "agnostic").

We had that particular discussion in early July (what dictionary says atheists are 100% sure?)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x290744

[frebrd]

12. I regard Atheism as freedom from, .......

not the lack of, a debilitating belief in the supernatural. No lack involved - lack implies being without something positive.

One might as well speak of a healthy person having a lack of cancer or diabetes.

In case you can't tell, this is a life-long pet peeve of mine!

[tortoise1956]

14. Thanks, Frebrd...

That's exactly what I am looking for. Thank you for your post.

[Odin2005]

16. Everything after "which implies" is wrong.

Atheism is the lack in the belief in a deity, PERIOD. The rest is not Atheism, it is metaphysical naturalism.

[tortoise1956]

19. A lot of good information here...

I asked for some answers, and I got quite a few. It provided a lot of food for thought, as well as some ideas for further research.

My sincere thanks to y'all for sharing your views with me.

[cleanhippie]

25. It's how YOU define it.

And as long as you provide YOUR definition up front when using the word in conversation, there is no other definition.

[Taverner]

29. Atheism means you hate America and Mom and Apple Pie

And that you worship the devil.

THE DEVIL!!!!!!!!!!



:evilgrin: