Richard Dawkins, check the evidence on the 'chilly climate' for women

[rug]

A few weeks ago, blogger and Skepchick.org founder Rebecca Watson publicly expressed discomfort after an unwanted flirtatious advance was made towards her in an elevator at 4am, just a few hours after she had been talking about this very subject at the World Atheist Convention in Dublin. The brutal reactions from some members of the Skeptic and scientific community that followed are now known as "Elevatorgate", and they have highlighted a remarkable disregard for evidence and lack of empathy towards women. Richard Dawkins himself took part and made sarcastic comments to belittle the feelings of unpleasantness felt by Watson ("Stop whining, will you").

I usually have a great deal of respect for Dawkins's ideas but I strongly disagree with his stance on this issue. Being drunkenly flirted with by an intoxicated man in a lift at 4am can make someone feel intimidated even if no physical contact is made. I've had similar experiences while waiting at bus stops after dark. The freedom to escape is there, as Dawkins points out, but the verbal exchange alone can still make some of us feel unsettled and shaken – not to mention the fact that many of us have experienced being followed home. This effect is amplified within a confined space with no other people present.

As Dawkins has conceded in a later reply, highlighting a problem on a larger scale, as he did when comparing Watson's complaint to the hardships encountered by women in some developing countries, does not erase the damage caused by a smaller problem. His dismissal of Watson's concerns further contributes to the problem of alienation felt by some women within the Skeptic community – something we should be collectively working to combat rather than develop.

A feeling of inadequacy in male-dominated environments is a well-documented phenomenon and has been termed as a "chilly climate", which can be caused by a whole host of subtle mannerisms, ranging from expecting a lower standard of work from women to making light of unwanted sexual flirtatious advances.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/24/richard-dawkins-women-chilly-climate

[laconicsax]

1. It should be noted:

Saying "quit whining, other women have it worse" is overt sexism, but not misogyny in itself. Dawkins has frequently condemned FGM and the overt mistreatment of women while praising the success of the feminist movement, so while he made exceedingly sexist comments (which he has shown no indication of apologizing for), saying that he's a misogynist is inaccurate.

[rug]

2. He's a charming fellow.

[trotsky]

4. I'll take him over your corrupt, pedophile-coddling pope any day. n/t

[cleanhippie]

12. You can say that again.

[Deep13]

33. You're selling him short.

Ratzinger also fought for Hitler and took a personal oath of loyalty to the Fuhrer that he has never renounced (or if he had he kept it to himself.)

[trotsky]

3. You and I both know that doesn't matter.

Dawkins, as a so-called "new atheist," is despised by religionists, and they will latch onto anything to discredit and demonize him because not one of them has successfully addressed any of his arguments.

He is so hated, in fact, that this article was placed here in Religion/Theology despite it having nothing to do with religion, theology, or even atheism. It's about the male domination of certain professions and groups and the attitudes found therein.

[laconicsax]

5. +1

[rug]

6. The fact that it occurred at an international event promoting the humanism and rationalism

of atheism is merely coincidental. The fact that Dawkins, a revered figure within the international atheist movement (see Converts' Corner http://richarddawkins.net/letters/converts?page=1) and organizer of the Convention (bad PR) immediately jumped in belittling the woman's complaint is uninteresting.

[trotsky]

7. Now you're going even further off the path.

You really despise Dawkins, don't you?

The final paragraph of the article YOU POSTED sums up the topic that was covered:

As a fellow rational thinker and an aspiring physicist, I ask Richard Dawkins and other influential figures within male-dominated fields to observe the evidence and help dispel this chilly climate, asserting our status as equals. We are not a novelty or a sideshow; we are women who share a common interest with the men in lecture halls, laboratories and conventions. It should be in everyone's best interests to create a welcoming atmosphere rather than to promote an air of hostility and alienation.

Shall we now explore the attitudes toward women and their career options within your church, in an attempt to bring your thread into relevance for this forum?

[rug]

8. No, let's finish with Dawkins first.

Did he ever write an answer to her question?

[trotsky]

9. Don't know. Now let's talk about the role of women in your church.

[rug]

10. Then go find out.

Or start your own thread about the role of women in the church.

I won't question your choice of forum.

[trotsky]

16. Hey, at least the topic is related to religion...

rather than solely gender issues.

[LeftishBrit]

13. And the woman who complained was ALSO participating at the international event promoting atheism

and humanism; and would, I think, be pretty horrified at having her complaint represented as some sort of attack on atheism.

As a citizen of a country where atheism is much commoner than in America, I do agree that atheism does not equate with progressivism, and that it's quite possible both to be an atheist *and* to have all sorts of reactionary social attitudes. But atheism does not *require* these attitudes. Nor does religion; but there are *some* groups that use religion to enforce them.

Dawkins is an intelligent man, but I have never regarded him as some sort of progressive hero. I do however regard the Christian Right as anti-progressive villains, and it is they, not Dawkins, who have made me deeply concerned about the need for atheist rights.

[skepticscott]

15. Yes, it is inaccurate

After all, he's not just a misogynist, he's a "raving" misogynist.

Get it right, will ya??

[Deep13]

30. Agreed. nt

[sudopod]

11. Yep, Dawkins turned out ot be a douche.

I guess I have no choice but to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

PSYCH!

[LeftishBrit]

14. Yes, well...

if my personal real-life experiences of certain people, who just *happened* to be atheists, didn't make me an ardent religious believer, I don't think this report about Dawkins will have this effect!

[Deep13]

31. LOL nt

[edhopper]

17. So is the point that

men can not hit on attractive women?
I understand that this felt like the last straw to Watson. I also see what Dawkins is saying. He asked, she said no, he went on his way."
Watson wants to make the larger valid point about women in a male dominated environment. Dawkins wants to make the smaller point that this a normal human interaction.
He does admit that is analogy was not apt.
What a bad man.

[sudopod]

18. It's normal for a man to go about propositioning women for sex in a hotel elevator in the wee hours

having never had a real conversation with her and after she had given an hour long talk about explicitly NOT doing this sort of thing?

I think that's probably a few sigmas outside of "normal human interaction." ;)


What ever happened to courtship, lol.

[laconicsax]

19. That's not what happened.

He cornered her in an elevator at 4 AM.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. I'm glad you enthusiastically support PZ Myers on this matter.

He was one of the most vocal critics of Dawkins' sexist remarks.

[trotsky]

21. LOL!

:spray:

[rug]

22. Eventually.

You haven't followed him or his blog cartoons very well.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. Please enlighten me on what I have missed.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Crickets. Sound of wind blowing. Tumbleweeds roll by.

[rug]

25. You should have made the sound of a few clicks.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/uh-oh_now_the_uppity_feminists.php

[trotsky]

26. LMAO

Once again, you didn't actually read what you linked to. You just read the headline and assumed.

Here, take one of these: :sarcasm:

And the cartoon is CRITICAL of Dawkins.

Thanks for your endless supply of unintentional self-deprecating comedy.
:rofl:

[okasha]

27. Ho-kay. And here I'd given PZ props for his response in the other column.

Guess he just couldn't stand being on the wrong side of the littul boyz club. The piggery is "uppity feminists" and "take it elsewhere."

The cartoon, on the other hand, is a hoot.

[trotsky]

28. You need one of these, too:

:sarcasm:

Try scrolling down the comments to find PZ's responses. And then you can come back and admit you were wrong.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

29. What exactly do YOU think that cartoon means?

[rug]

35. "Please stop making excuses for him."

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/two_awful_no-good_terribad_mis.php

It's in the comments. To help you search, he tagged it "Category: Equality • Stupidity"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. How is that an answer to my question in any way, shape, or form?

[rug]

37. I'm ignoring your question.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. Thanks for your sincerity.

Makes my job easier.

[rug]

39. What's your job?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. This last Sunday, Uruguay won the Copa America.

They beat Paraguay 3-0. http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/767/copa-america-recap-a-new-power-rises

[Deep13]

32. Dawkins is our Prophet and criticizing him is blasphemy!!

Oh, wait, no he's not. He's just a guy who knows a lot about evolution. That sure was a dickish thing for him to say. He's right to point out how bad women have it elsewhere and especially in the Muslim world, but that does NOT mean Watson had no cause for complaint. After all, Saudi Arbia is hardly our benchmark.

There's still no god.

As a side note, I applaud his efforts to call attention to the brutal treatment of women and girls in much of the world, especially the Muslim world. He's an outspoken critic of FGM, enforced extreme modesty and chastity and other barbaric practices.

[skepticscott]

41. You'd think that a "raving misogynist"

would not have been saying anything about the mistreatment of women around the world, or would have been applauding it, or even practicing it himself. Funny how that works. Must be easier to join the Society of Raving Misogynists than we thought.

[Deep13]

42. Liberal purity does not tolerate error!

I think well-intentioned people can sound like assholes sometimes. This is especially true in the academic and scientific worlds where peer review and critical thinking generally cause people to put aside manners and personal considerations habitually. I got used to that treatment in law school which in this country uses the Socratic method.

[Taverner]

34. Christians: May I remind you of John 8:7

He screwed up. He is not a "raging misogynist" but he is wrong.

And he added insult to injury by mocking Skepchik in this way