God, the Alpha Male

[frogmarch]

Does our species' tendency to worship deities - including the Christian god - represent an inborn need of humans to submit to a leader?

I believe it may.

Here's a paragraph from Wayne Wilson's review of the Desmond Morris book The Naked Ape:

http://www.humanistsofutah.org/1998/NakedApe_BookReview_8-98.html

Morris' explanation of the source of religion is very interesting. He notes that groups of people, and sometimes the groups are quite large, congregate regularly and display submissive responses (closing the eyes, lowering the head, clasping the hands together in a begging gesture, kneeling, kissing the ground, or even extreme prostration) that are often accompanied by wailing or chanting vocalizations. The dominant individual is usually referred to as a god. Morris traces these strange behaviors to dominant males of our far past that evolved into an all-powerful individual that could span generations. "At first sight, it is surprising that religion has been so successful, but its extreme potency is simply a measure of the strength of our fundamental biological tendency, inherited directly from our monkey and ape ancestors, to submit ourselves to an all-powerful, dominant member of the group."

[AX10]

1. "people are weak, they just follow like sheep"

[papau]

2. nice addition to DU's atheist discussion of why all others are incorrect

albeit a bit tiresome - but if it floats their boat - why not post a 1967 book's 1998 book review.

One wonders why the atheists on DU act like fundies that demand all around them adopt their thinking and find the right path - demanding a conversion to the faith of the atheist in "non-belief"?

In any case there is a bit more science that followed this book - and all, including this book, are an interesting read.

[StClone]

4. Apparently you can believe in whatever you want

And that includes erroneous beliefs of your fellow Godless DUers.

[papau]

6. Very True :-)

:-)

[frogmarch]

7. papau, I thought the topic

would be an interesting one to discuss...period. Where in my post did I "act like fundies that demand all around them adopt their thinking and find the right path - demanding a conversion to the faith of the atheist in "non-belief"? As for my post being "a nice addition to DU's atheist discussion of why all others are incorrect," where in my post did I say all other views are incorrect?

Morris's book is the only one I've ever read that explored the possiblility that the human need for deities may stem from our biological wiring. That's why I cited his book, even though it's an oldish book. I thought the review of the book was a good source to quote in my post, even though the review itself wasn't written recently either. I don't know why either would pose a problem. My guess is that my post made you feel defensive. Sorry about that.

I suppose I should have waited till my snail-mailed contribution to DU arrived, and posted the topic in the Atheists and Agnostics Group in the DU Groups, but I really didn't think the topic was inflammatory.

[papau]

8. Hallucinating God/hard wired God beliefs articles are everywhere - please

realize atheists are welcome here - but it is a political site - not a "I'm correct and your stupid (hard wired) faith fight" site. On the chance you are really telling the truth about having a hard time finding atheist articles on why those with faith in God are stupid/hard wired/so wrong I give you the links below. In terms of logic the idea that we are hard wired in our God thinking does not pass the smell test- but a lot of folks like to publish such thoughts.


Psychology Today: Why God Won't Go Away: Science And The Biology ...
We are, they say, wired for God. To understand this wiring Newberg and D'Aquili..."We don't believe in God because He exists...."
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_6_34/ai_82261860


Amazon.com: Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs.: Books
by Michael A. Persinger
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0275926486?v=glance

The God-Gene: Is Religious Faith and Experience a Biological
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/godgene.htm


The Field Model ....Subjective prejudice is intimately related to our biological wiring that ...
http://www.globalresearch.org/view_article.php?aid=805984989

Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns
Rice (2003) found that 3.8% of Americans don’t believe in God or “a spirit ...that the roots of belief in God are to be found in “the wiring of the human ...
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html
Why God Won't Go Away : Brain Science and the Biology of Belief
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345440331?v=glance

Is God in Our Genes - investigations into the biological roots of belief in God ...
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodGene.htm

Neurotheology, or the study of the biological underpinnings to faith in a higher power, ... Brain science and the biology of belief: Why God won't go away
https://people.creighton.edu/~idc24708/Genes%20Poster/Papers/Neurotheology_Goetz.doc


Hallucinating God: The Cognitive Neuropsychiatry of Religious Belief and ...Put simply, we tend to evaluate whether a belief is credible in light of ...
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/28/1051381900365.html

[frogmarch]

9. Wow, thanks!

I'll follow the links and do some catching up. I didn't say I had a hard time finding such info, only that the Morris book was the only one I had read containing it. While exploring the www, I hadn't come across any of the sites you gave links to, and as an atheist, I don't spend a lot of time googling religion.

Why must you keep repeating the false accusation that I insist I am right and that all other views are wrong? You wrote: "but it is a political site - not a "I'm correct and your stupid (hard wired) faith fight" site."

Seems to me you're the one trying to pick a fight, not I. I never said I was correct or that you were stupid. As for being hard wired,I suggested that humans may be hard wired regarding the need to submit to leaders, and therefore, deities.

[papau]

10. go in peace - I have no desire to pick a fight - but I also will not back

away from one.

The hard wired thought has be used by those atheist who are looking for a fight.

If you are not, and are an atheist, have a look at data and note the attempt to equate instinctive with hard wire and then with judgments I do not agree with as being reasonable still being held.

And note that correlation is not causation, and indeed correlation lies in the eye of the interpreter.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Interesting

in that mystic groups often chant and move about in their spiritual practices. But in actuality, the point of these practices is not submission to some "alpha male" or even "dominant member" of a group, but to feel group cohesiveness and unity. But then again, the concept of God that many mystics have is far different than the traditional concept of God held by some Christians. The Dalai Lama was once asked by a group of visiting Sufis the differences between Sufism and Buddhism. His reply was "In Sufism, everything is. In Buddhism, nothing is. Same thing, no difference." If you understand that, you understand a bit about the mystical concept.

[undergroundpanther]

5. To me

I HATE the dominant.HATE it.Any dominant looking to dominate is my enemy.
Why am I like this? Because in my life the dominants saw
me as an insubordinate and were abusive,the followers were mad that I would not"play the game" and go along with the abusive.The "dominant" frustrated that I would not back down would call their groveling sheep to attack me for being different. It's the same pattern I see and have been hurt by in schools ,work,dysfunctional families or other social institutions. You are safe if you are in a dominant or submissive role.Step out of both roles in the name of survival or self integrity and the people in those in those roles will scapegoat you.

Until we throw away that apish sickening part of ourselves in social relations we will abuse and destroy each other.
Time for the games of master and servant to END forever.

[bloom]

11. I think it's sort of interesting

to think about. And what about people who want to think of Bush* as their God/leader.

Or whoever - the lead politician is at the time.

And then there are some religions (and countries, for that matter) open to women being leaders and some not.

There are so many ways that people try to keep the Alpha Male thing going. And a few that work toward egalitarianism.

The Quakers don't have such a hierarchy going on and mostly talk about God being inside every person - not one Male who is worshiped. (Sometimes within a group - someone tries to become dominant - but it is discouraged.)

I know Wiccans who are even more diffused than that. Everyone 'worships' whomever and whatever they wish and occasionally have rituals together.

So it doesn't seem like a "requirement" - for a religion or a state - though some, it seems - would like to keep it so.

[Zenlitened]

12. It's interesting stuff, teasing out the origins of our own behavors.

Thanks for posting the link. :hi:

One of judeochristian religion's main conceits is that we are utterly unique from all the animals around us. That's why the hard-core religionists lash out at evolutionary theory, which shows that we are all the same stuff, to a great extent.

But behavioral science reveals much the same conclusion. What we think are distinctly human behaviors turn out to have parellels in the animals that share the planet and in our common ancestors. Brain research does that too, as researchers tease out the structures where various behaviors seem to reside.

All of which makes us less "unique" -- but all the more fascinating, in my view. :)

[bloom]

14. We could be more like Bonobos and less like Orangutans

Social Organization among Various Primates


BONOBO
Bonobo communities are peace-loving and generally egalitarian. The strongest social bonds are those among females, although females also bond with males. The status of a male depends on the position of his mother, to whom he remains closely bonded for her entire life.

CHIMPANZEE
In chimpanzee groups the strongest bonds are established between the males in order to hunt and to protect their shared territory. The females live in overlapping home ranges within this territory but are not strongly bonded to other females or to any one male.

GIBBON
Gibbons establish monogamous, egalitarian relations, and one couple will maintain a territory to the exclusion of other pairs.

ORANGUTAN
Orangutans live solitary lives with little bonding in evidence. Male orangutans are intolerant of one another. In his prime, a single male establishes a large territory, within which live several females. Each female has her own, separate home range.

http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

[Inland]

13. Actually, that would be the source of a submissive postures, not religion.

A submissive posture is a submissive posture by culture. How someone makes a leap between similar cultural meanings in posture to a "fundamental biological tendency inherited directly to submit ourselves to a all powerful dominent member of the group" isn't really clear from the review.