It just never ends...

[onager]

From the latest Ijet Daily Intelligence Briefing. I'm currently working in Alexandria and may be here several months. For my Grumpy Atheist "Benefits Of Religion" folder, which grows thicker by the day:

Two Stabbed Outside Alexandria Church

A Coptic nun and a fellow Copt were stabbed by a young Islamist man outside the St. George Coptic church in the Muharram Bik area of Alexandria, Egypt, Oct. 19. Both victims suffered relatively minor injuries and security forces caught the attacker shortly after the stabbing.

The attack came one day after the Islamist group "Egypt's Mujahadeen" issued a statement saying that members of the church are legitimate targets for attacks due to the church's sponsoring an "anti-Islamic" play.

iJET: St. George church has been at the center of a cultural battle since first staging the play two weeks ago. Islamist groups have demonstrated outside the church daily, forcing the cancellation of the play. While violence between Muslims and Copts is relatively common in Egypt, it is rare in Alexandria - a relatively cosmopolitan and outward facing city...

Here's an article about the play itself:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F5FBDC54-31DE-43FB-A805-5BF2B5388A48.htm

[hlthe2b]

1. Amazingly provocative, given the current climate....

it does make one wonder re: motivations...

[Az]

2. Take any two dogmatic authoratative belief systems

Add disagreement and sit back and watch. Doesn't matter if it's a god based belief or not. As soon as you have two systems insisting that they alone define good and evil you are going to have problems.

[onager]

3. A(theist)-MEN!

Az, you hit the nail right on the head as usual.

The timing is bad for another reason--this is the month of Ramadan. Muslims are cranky anyhow, since they have to fast all day.

BTW, one corner of Cairo is like Ground Zero for "dogmatic, authoritative belief systems." The oldest mosque in Egypt is a stone's throw from one of the oldest Jewish synagogues. Which is right around the corner from an old Coptic church. And the Nunnery Of St. George, which is an odd sight to see in Egypt.

Earlier this year when I was in Cairo, I saw two Coptic clergymen getting into a shiny black Mercedes near that church.

A ragged woman surrounded by several equally ragged and dirty children stopped one of the clergy as he was getting behind the wheel.

He looked irritated for just an instant, then graciously allowed the woman to kiss his ring and blessed her before he got into the
Mercedes.

I was thinking of his annoyed look and the whole scenario. I imagined him thinking: "I'm in a real hurry, but this nonsense keeps me driving a Mercedes and living well. So I'd better do the blessing bit."

Of course, I'm just a Grumpy Atheist (tm).

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. That pretty well sums it up

The real issue (as always) is fanaticism on the part of at least one party. Religion need not have any part in the matter.

[catbert836]

5. Well, the message of the play was obvious

But to me, it just shows what can happen in a situation where the minority (Coptics) says something about the majority (Muslims) that a influential member of the majority finds offensive, and... bam! You have riots and people being killed. It's amazing how stupid people will become to support their misguided sense of belief.

I could see the exact same thing happening in America, but between pagans/athiests/Muslims/whatever and Christians.

[BiggJawn]

15. That's exactly what I was thinking....

You take the majority, fill their heads with a bunch of bullshit about how the MINORITY is "persecuting" them and trying to get their Right to pray taken away, or "mocking" their Gawd, and you have modern Murka.

There's plenty of gasoline splashed around, I'm just waiting for Jerry Foul-Well to strike a match.

I sure hope I'm not forced into teaching a hard lesson on how well the "Full Armour of GAWD" stands up to a Deer Slug...

[onager]

6. And it just got worse...

Last night (Fri, Oct. 21) a group of Muslims gathered outside the Coptic church to protest.

They clashed with police. First reports say 1 person was killed and many injured.

We foreigners working here have been warned: if the riots spread etc., prepare to leave Alexandria on short notice.

It seemed pretty quiet today on our way in from work. Our job site is some distance from Alexandria, and we have to drive thru several parts of the city to get home (well, to the hotel).

I'm going to go out on the balcony and watch the sun set into the Mediterranean. Not even religion has managed to f!ck that up. Yet.

[Az]

7. Be careful

Seriously. :scared:

[arwalden]

8. Dude!

Are you obviously a Westerner? Do you stand out in a crowd of locals?

I'd be nervous to go outside and blend with the local population... I'd also be nervous to go out to the places where tourists or foreign workers gather.

Religion... feh! Not pretty at all.

[frogmarch]

9. Are Egyptian Copts

still forced to have crosses or stars of David tattooed (or branded) on the backs of their hands or neck, or wear ridiculous clothing, so that they can be easily recognized and persecuted by Muslims? I have also heard that Coptics sometimes mark themselves this way to show they are willing to suffer for their religious beliefs. Maybe presenting the play was masochistic... a way for Coptics to bring more suffering on themselves.

[onager]

11. I never heard of such a thing

The only Copts I see who can be clearly identified as such are the clergy, who wear black garments similar to a Catholic priest.

I've seen quite a few people coming in/out of Coptic churches, and they didn't have any identifying marks or anything.

This sounds like some sort of bizarre urban legend to me.

[onager]

10. Yep, I'm obviously American...

But I still go out and walk around Alexandria. It's one of the things I most enjoy doing.

I didn't come halfway around the world to sit in my hotel room and watch bad TV. Actually, I came here to work. But you get my point.

The situation calmed down a bit today. The Grand Imam of the local Muslims and the Pope of the Coptic Church both said nice things about each other. Mubarak made a speech about Copts and Muslims both being equal parts of Egyptian culture. Etc.

We furriners are still being warned to avoid "poor and predominantly Muslim parts of Alexandria." (That only covers about, oh, 90% of the city...)

In my walks, actually, people couldn't be nicer. I sometimes get stares of curiosity, like "WTF is HE doing here?" But never any hostility, at least not yet.

[frogmarch]

12. Coptic tattoos

Yes, it does sound far-fetched, so I decided to google it to see what I could find out about it.

Here's a link to a discussion about tattoing at the "My Coptic Church" website.

http://www.mycopticchurch.com/ask/Messages/ViewThread.cfm?ThreadID=2555

[onager]

13. City officially calm, Atheist Wanderer reports...

OK, I just went for a long midnight walk around Alexandria. It's Thursday night, the equivalent of a weekend Saturday in the West. And since it's the month of Ramadan, people are out quite late.

When you walk out the back door of my hotel, you're in an area that looks like an Indiana Jones movie set. A major shopping street, with dark twisting alleys branching off. What some of us would call "inviting..."

The riot police are still stationed around Coptic churches, but they don't have much to do. Mostly sit around shooting the breeze with passersby.

Outside a cafe/shisha joint, I was kidnapped by Egyptians who forced me to drink coffee and socialize with them. I don't know if they were Muslim, Coptic or None Of The Above.

One tried to restrain me by grabbing my leg, but he was only about 2 feet tall, so I was able to escape.

[Az]

14. Pesky social types

Glad to hear of your wanderings. Now get to finding lost remnants from the library!

[onager]

16. Funny you should mention that...

Yesterday (Fri.) was my only day off. I had planned to go walk around the ruins of the Serapheum. That's the old Temple Of Serapis, which once housed part of the Alexandria Library. That would have been the part destroyed by Xian mobs on the orders of the bishop Theophilus in 391 CE. Along with the Serapheum and every other pagan landmark in Alexandria.

It's also the site of Pompey's Pillar, which has nothing to do with Pompey The Great, oddly enough. It was built by Diocletian. Maybe they just liked the alliteration...

Unfortunately, the Present jumped in and beat the crap out of the Past.

While I was having breakfast in the hotel, I saw truck after truck filled with riot police heading in the direction I wanted to go. They were accompanied by several empty buses. Now buses are NEVER empty in Alexandria--they're always jammed full of people, like every other motorized conveyance on the streets.

The only reason I could think of for empty buses: planning for mass arrests.

As it turned out, the cops were heading for the Coptic church that was attacked last Friday--St. George's. The news over here reported "hundreds" of police filled the square in front of the church. The riots last week kicked off after the noontime Muslim prayers.

Late in the afternoon we drove right by St. George's. We weren't looking for trouble--I'm adventurous, but not stupid. We were just coming back from shopping and that's the route our Egyptian driver took.

It seemed pretty calm, but we were on the street by the back entrance, not in the square out front.