progressive christian: creationism/evolution

[seabeyond]

i read a thread on christian bashing. i don't see much, if any, christian bashing. so i wonder. what may one consider christian bashing? could it be that a progressive believes in creationism ergo when this thought is challenged this is interpreted as christian bashing?

[Lerkfish]

1. its interesting you choose evolution as your litmus on whether progressive

christians feel bashed.
talk about missing the point entirely.

:crazy:

at any rate, I picked that I believe in evolution, but the choice above it also fits.

instead of examining what we believe to see if we feel bashed, why not ask why we feel bashed? Your poll is unrelated to the issue.

Here is why we sometimes feel bashed:

1. many threads started that denigrate belief or believers out of hand, instead of wanting to discuss. In other words, flamebaiting.
2. people who insist on calling progressive christians to task for what the rightwing whackjobs do or say.
3. people who insist progressive christians "fix" evangelicals, and until we do, we have to suffer all the denigration of others because we aren't doing our job until then.
4. Attempting to pin non-progressive issues to progressive christians (like starting this poll on evolution)

what's wrong with accepting that progressive christians are shoulder to shoulder with other progressives, all fighting the same battles?

to tell you the truth, an analogy would be like we in a trench, shooting at the enemy across the way, but every once in a while, the guy on your side takes a shot at you instead.
How comfortable would that make you?

[BL611]

5. Don't consider myself a Christian

But as a LIBERAL I am very appreciative of the influence of people like Reinhold Niebuhr on my political philosophy, anyone who puts down Christianity in the name of liberalism proves their own ignorance and narrow mindedness...

[seabeyond]

8. but but but. i want to understand. i know, being progressive

christian myself living in a fundamentalist environment for the last decade. truly, lots of assumption in your post on my motive, why i am asking ect....

i do appreciate your post

my children went to a christian private school for 6 years. at first it was good. then after bush election in 2000, and seeing a huge shift in the school in fall 2003...... i have learned about the development of cult like christianity.

my children sat in chapel on thurs morning and listened to a minister we all love say bush was put there by god. kerry is not a christian. democrats not christian. kerry a murderer.

i think i am pretty forgiving of my fellow christians, even those that literally abuse and persecuted boys as they had their different beliefs.

this christian issue is huge with where our nation is today. and where we will be tomorrow

i absolutely feel as a christian i have a responsibility for my fellow christians and the hate they promote in the name of jesus. i feel a huge responsibility. if you dont feel that, your choice. i dont think christianity will heal, until we christians stand up and speak out in love, christs words

i dont care that you judge the poll to be something it is not. i am curious how many people believe in literal creationism. more friends and family have told me they think it is possible this earth is 6009 years old. these are college graduates. i gotta say, i am surprised

i voted on dont know, dont have to know. i can see a story in evolution, thru creationism. maybe i could have asked it more ways

[trotsky]

23. "the guy on your side takes a shot at you instead"

Yeah, like when non-believers are told to "get over it" when it comes to the pledge or currency graffiti.

Look, out in the real world, it's the non-believers in the back seat, Lerkfish. 99 freakin' Senators take to the Capitol steps with "Onward Christian Soldiers" playing in the background to recite the pledge of allegiance, putting special emphasis on the words UNDER GOD just to make sure I know where my rights stand.

So when a few non-believers make the occasional remark that "denigrates" belief, or wonder why progressive Christians aren't having a noticeable effect at stemming the tide of whacked-out right-wing Christianity, please don't make me laugh by comparing it to being in a war and your buddy in the trench taking shots at you.

OK?

[Lerkfish]

30. have I ever told you to get over it?

I have only supported other progressives, and I have never asked any of them to recite the pledge of allegiance, I am adamantly opposed to the blurring of the line separating church and state, and completely support gay rights and gay marriage and I am prochoice.

so what is your beef with me?

can you be more specific?

if, however, you have no beef with my politics, but want to assign the guilt of right wing christians to me (which you have just done with your post), then you are being the perfect example of what I'm saying.

[trotsky]

31. Just as your post attacks only *some* non-believers,

so does mine refer to only *some* believers. I was assuming you'd realize the parallel, and see that the religious disrespect around here runs both ways. Not to mention the much more significant one-way disrespect that happens in the real world Democratic party. Those 99 Senators didn't get up and declare god's non-existence, now did they?

But of course, if you and/or your church aren't actively fighting the right-wing Christian agenda, it could be argued that you're indirectly supporting it. Silence = consent.

[Lerkfish]

32. congratulations! you're guilty of 2 and 3 of what I was talking about!

Here is why we sometimes feel bashed:

1. many threads started that denigrate belief or believers out of hand, instead of wanting to discuss. In other words, flamebaiting.
2. people who insist on calling progressive christians to task for what the rightwing whackjobs do or say.
3. people who insist progressive christians "fix" evangelicals, and until we do, we have to suffer all the denigration of others because we aren't doing our job until then.
4. Attempting to pin non-progressive issues to progressive christians (like starting this poll on evolution)

[trotsky]

33. Um, your reading comprehension leaves a little to be desired.

What I said was:

But of course, if you and/or your church aren't actively fighting the right-wing Christian agenda, it could be argued that you're indirectly supporting it. Silence = consent.

I didn't "call (you) to task for what the rightwing whackjobs do or say."

I also didn't insist that you "fix" them.

I said that if you or your church aren't actively opposing them, it could be argued that you're indirectly supporting it.

Let me know if you need further help understanding.

[beam me up scottie]

24. A shot from one guy?

Puh-leeeeeeze!

Atheists would love it if only one guy was taking pot shots at us.



How many rights have you been told to sacrifice for the cause?

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I am a theistic evolutionist. I believe God created everything, including

evolution.

But I don't feel bashed for it. Sure some nonbelievers turn up their noses at the God part of it, but I get harassed more by young earth creationists.

My BIL thinks there were dinosaurs on the ark. (And I am not so sure there was even an ark, but I am positive there would not have been any dinosaurs on it.)

[seabeyond]

9. BIL thinks there were dinosaurs on the ark..... oh MY, lol lol

i have been surprised with some of the answers to make the 6009 work.

i grew up in calif. 60's thru 90's i didnt hear churches say story of creation was literal. really. all churches and believers i came in contact with said it wasnt literal, had to take it beyond. i never saw a church actually try to teach this as a literal story. i understand it was about 14% believed literal. 2002 24%, then 38% then 45% last i saw it is to 54% in just like three years

i find that amazing

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. I find it scary. It goes to show that education and debate are suffering

in this country and that we are headed towards a new dark ages. *sigh*

[trotsky]

26. But on the other hand,

by criticizing the fundies, are we failing to show their religion proper respect? By what metric does one decide when a religion or someone's religious beliefs are deserving of respect, and how far does that respect go?

[tuvor]

3. Who cares what road got us here?

What matters is that we're here now. Let's move forward.

Let's...progress.

[bowens43]

6. How we got here is VERY important.

Evolution is the foundation of all modern biology.

[seabeyond]

10. gotta have understanding in progression n/t

[bonito]

4. Seems to me

Beliefs are my personal coloring of the truth in the way I see it. and once colored less likely to view the truth in another light.

[eallen]

7. Speaking as an atheist, I have a problem saying "I believe in evolution."

That statement sounds very much like the homologue of the believer's "I believe in god." And in that sense, I don't believe in evolution.

Let me explain.

Yes, I know that there is a vast mountain of evidence for biological evolution, from a variety of fields: paleontology, cladistics, etc. Yes, I know that evolution is the only theory around that explains this evidence. Yes, I know that molecular biologists every day work with the theoretical framework provided by evolution. Yes, I know that the creationist/ID criticisms of evolution are hokum. Yes, I know that this all puts evolution on much the same footing as quantum mechanics.

It's not that I think there is any significant problem with evolution. I don't. It's that "I believe in" is not the kind of thing that scientists do with regard to theories. We develop them, we study them, we suss out their evidence, we develop research directions from them, we teach what they mean, we work out variants of them, we puzzle on their implications, we divide them into parts, we look at them in different aspects, we stretch them, we test them, we apply them, we mix them, and we winnow them. But believe in them? Well, no, not in the sense that someone believes in religion. That's a very different kind of mental act, one that doesn't have any place in science. Or in my view, in any rational mind. I don't believe in anything in the way a devout believes in god.

[seabeyond]

11. ok, i go along with exactly what you say

so in simple sentence, how would you ask?

[MarsThe Cat]

12. adhere?

as in: do you adhere to the theory of evolution?

[CardInAustin]

15. How about....

I believe the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have so far.

[eallen]

16. Can you explain more what it is you're trying to ask?

[seabeyond]

17. i have been on this board for a while. i really cant say it is a

christian bashing board. yet i have also listened to christians on this board getting upset, feeling it is a christian bashing board

i was surprised all the people around me, my friends and family, they believed in literal interpretation of creationism. and then i listened to them try to validate the theory of this universe being 6009 years old. i was really surprised by this in the last year. my father, i have known him all my life. he didn't believe this in the past

i have been curious if people on this board believe in literal creationism. i assumed they didn't. but then i didn't think my father or brother or friends did either. so i thought i would ask. maybe there is a good number here that believe in literal creationism. if so, i could see the ridicule of the idea this universe is 6009 yr old could be offensive.

[eallen]

18. What do you think is the appropriate response to silly ideas?

There are calibrated tree-ring histories that go back further than 6,000 years. Of course, an omnipotent god could have created evidence of a longer past than the world actually has. That was seriously proposed by the theologian Philip Gosse, as a way of explaining the conflict between the Bible's literal history and the physical evidence of longer age.

Which raises the question: at what point do you start laughing at a religious believer's explanations?

:hippie:

[seabeyond]

19. point do you start laughing at a religious believer's explanations?

after i conclude through amazed questions that the person is truly convincing themselves this planet is 6009 years old. i laugh then i let it go, understanding where they are coming from in their perception in the politics of today. at that point i no longer use my time to inform a person. i am done. then from there on out, anything come up i bring up....... of course, the universe is only 6009 years old. lol lol

on edit: now is that bashing. cause i just see it as humor.

[Iktomiwicasa]

14. I accept

and understand the science in the Theory of Evolution. I also accept the Creation story of my people, not as a literal accounting of history, but rather for the larger Truth it contains. I think that's the problem with the fundamentalist biblical creationists. They look to Genesis as an accounting of history, and fail to see the larger (and more important IMO) meaning.

[Zhade]

28. Same here. I don't "believe in" evolution. I know it's a proven fact.

NT!

[Lilith Velkor]

20. Creationism/evolution is a false dichotomy

Unless one interprets the Bible literally, which most Christians don't. Faith does not trump reason, if it does it is mental illness disguised as religion. JMFO.

[OnionPatch]

21. I don't know

a single "progressive" Christian who thinks the Earth is only 5000 years old. This may be one of the most prominent factors separating us from fundamentalists. Most of us believe in evolution as scientific fact and Genesis is merely the creation "story." God made the universe and all the scientific processes that go along with it. Perhaps one day in Genesis is equal to a thousand years our time. IMO only a fool would believe this stuff literally. (Just my opinion, no offense intended.)

[TahitiNut]

22. Is God getting older?

I believe "is" is. I do not believe in a God that ages or a 'creation' event that 'was' - I believe it 'is'. Time itself is part of 'is-ness.'

I regard the whole discussion of a Creation in the past to be an appallingly myopic time-bounded conception of God ... a God that is, not was. The very notion of 'is' and 'was' is something we are embedded within, but not God. (She created time itself.)

That this conception is so difficult for humans to grasp is indicated by the blank stares I get when I mention it.

[CatholicEdHead]

25. Evil evolutionist here

Evolution should stay in the science classes and ID/Creationism should stay in philosophy classes.

[Zhade]

27. Anyone who thinks the biblical account of "creation" is literally true...

...is an idiot.

I don't care if that's "bashing", it's true. We have all this evidence for evolution, zero for creationism/ID. NONE.

Now believers who also accept the facts of evolution, they are NOT idiots.

[FM Arouet666]

29. christian bashing?

The bible is not literal, a collection of stories, many of which have antecedents which predate the related events by many years. Books in the new testament are written years after the fact and have no corroborative historical evidence. No archaeological evidence. Floods, reincarnation, walking on water, raising the dead. Childish fantasy if it were not for a powerful motivator.

Falling to sleep, as the mind empties the chaos of a busy day, everyone, at some time, ponders why we exist and what awaits us when we die.

Moments of clarity, of doubt, questioning of beliefs.

Look inward and you may find, it is not the love of god which drives belief, it is the fear of death. Not wanting to face the cold reality of blinking into nothingness as the neurons of our brain fade, we invent a much more pleasant fiction. A heaven for all eternity, the love of a gentle god. The prime motivator for religious belief.

Christian bashing? Only if stating the truth is to be considered bashing.