Liberal versus fundy believers... we need help!

[GreenPartyVoter]

I am trying to compile ideas for how to put an end to power of the angry version of so many faiths, particularly my own, which is Christianity.

If you have any _helpful_ suggestions (and no, "all religion should die" and "It's your faith, it's your problem" aren't helpful.. I need _constructive_ plans of action here), please add them to the discussion on my blog about how Hell and salvation drive these people to drive us nuts. Thanks!

http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html#comments

[Cactus44]

1. All Christians would need to do is have

all belivers memorize the Sermon on the Mount.

The division in Christianity seems to me to be between followers of Christ and followers of Paul, so have then concentrate more on Christ.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. There is a problem with Paulists, to be sure, but as I point out in my

blog post, there is a real problem with the concepts of Hell, Salvation, and biblical literalism that fuel the fires of the coservative fear and anger.

[Cactus44]

4. Oh yeah...... That.

My fear is that this is a case of "getting out of it what you bring to it." When angry bigots read the Bible (or the Koran or the Torah) they get an angry bigoted message. When those people begin preaching their angry bigoted 'fatih', well, you know what happens.

What to do about that is certainly a question worth asking, but I don't know that I have that much to offer. I promise you I'll think about it, and maybe even talk about it with my wife- (she's really smart).

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. I think you are exactly right. People get out what they bring in.

Looks like you are pretty smart too, and tell your wife I said so. :D

[BOSSHOG]

3. I see the angry version of christianity

coming from their strong desire to codify their beliefs into law. That has caused a significant backlash against the christian faithful and rightfully so. I recall David Limbaugh wrote a book about the persecuted christian and the entire premise was that not letting christians force their beliefs on the rest of the country was tantamount to persecution.

To answer your question: Christians need to get out of politics and live to enjoy the freedoms they have under the constitution. They believe that can't be done and they are wrong. If they persist with their efforts to force others via law changes and constitutional amendments to believe what they believe they should hand over their tax exempt status.

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. I hate the "I'm persecuted because you won't let me bully you" meme.

Hate it, hate it, hate it!

I agree, the separation of church and state issue is huge here. I also think you are right that we need to educate them about the fact that they can live the way they want without pushing their beliefs on everyone else. But that goes back to what I was saying in my blog piece, that savng themselves from Hell requires them to spread the word and make converts. Until we nip that in the bud, we are screwed.

[BOSSHOG]

12. I don't want to prevent them spreading the word

but they must rationally except no from a citizen of the United States. That's what the constitution is all about. Spreading your word and codifying your word are two different animals entirely. I offer the current nonsense at the Air Force Academy. Religious zealots chose not to accept NO from fellow cadets. As a taxpayer, that pisses me off. Another serious angle for you to consider; People like me who are getting pretty sick and tired and, yes, Angry at all his evangelizing. It may come to an end one way or the other. As my Sig line clearly states, I did not spend 24 years in uniform supporting and defending the bible. A religious attack on the constitution riles me, I don't care what religion is doing the attacking.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. I agree, I am appalled at the influx of fundagelicals into the

chaplaincy of our Armed Forces. The liberal churches, mosques, temples and so forth need to find a way to encourage their clergy to go into the service too, because we need examples of "live and let live" believers, not people who would hold you hostage emotionally and spiritually.

[BOSSHOG]

24. Good luck in your endeavor

I hope that I was more help then hindrance.

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. You are always a help *hugs* Thanks for the well-wishes.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Tired of nutty in your face fundies? Me too!
http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html

[China_cat]

6. If you will not be received,

shake the dust from your shoes and move on...paraphrased words of the Jesus character.

Doesn't say 'demonize' those who don't want to hear it, doesn't say 'stick around and scream in people's faces', doesn't say 'threaten them with everything from hellfire to immediate death'.

It says move on and leave them alone. THAT'S what the hard core of christianity needs to learn.

Well, that and Matthew 6: 5 and 6

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. Except that they prefer to cling to the verses that order them to tell

everyone "the good news". (And yet they refuse to note the Book is full of contradictions. :eyes:)

[Sal316]

7. James 1:26-27

Something I heard in church the other week and it's been stuck in my head since then.

James 1:26-28 (New International Version)

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


Seems simple enough for me.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. The only bit they will see is the "keep oneself from being polluted

by the world".. which to them means to make the world over into a place they feel safe to live in. Ergo, theocracy and censorship. :(

[Sal316]

13. I disagree...

...my take is that one shouldn't allow themselves to be consumed by things like money, status, or any of the 'piddly shit' that distracts us from taking care of each other and instead focus on making the world better for all (widows and orphans).

Christ taught that the 'Kingdom' is not of this world.... any RW fundie trying to turn the US into a "Christian Nation" is disregarding his teachings.

This is also a good tie in to "whatever you do to the least of those among you, you do to me".

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. I agree with your assessment of it, but I know most fundies won't.

[Rainbowreflect]

11. To me it boils down to that all faiths I know of that believe in God,

whatever name you give, believes that God gave humans free will.
If God gave you free will no other person has a right to take that away by forcing their beliefs on you.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Fundies have a very weird take on free will and it does not apply to

turning us into a theocracy. They believe they have the right and that they _should_ "turn the nation back to God". But generally it's not about feeding the poor, it's about regulating what goes on in our bedrooms and what we watch on TV and wear out on the street.

[Rainbowreflect]

17. You are so right, they don't get it.

They call themselves Christians, but do not seem to know anything about what Christ taught!

[jonnyblitz]

18. that is a very cool thing for you to do.

:hi:

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Thank, Johnny. :^) *wave* Here's hoping it makes a difference.

[Az]

20. Its a classic problem liberals of all stripes have

How do you simultaneously embrace diversity and promote a particular view point.

I think we are coming to a point in our social development when we are going to have to decide between total diversity and progress. I cannot see how we can advance any further while some insist on holding to hateful notions.

Such regressive beliefs I suspect will whither in the face of active and vocal opposition. Its going to take active and vocal opposition to let them know that they do not speak for all Christians. Let them be the one's having to make the nuanced argument that they are not speaking for all Christians.

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. I think a lot of hateful attitudes can becomes a thing of the past. Look

at how attitudes have changed toward other races in the past 150 years int he USA. Yes, we have a long way to go, but there is clearly a difference between how things are now and the way they were.

I think you are right that we have to come to a decision. Angry and hateful people like to thumb their noses at liberals and play the "you believe in diversity, you have to put up with me" card. I think we need to say, "you can believe what you want, but no, we do not have to put up with you if you are being hurtful or hateful."

Enough is enough already.

[catbert836]

22. I have 5 words for you:

The Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:17-49). Get it out there, and maybe people will realize how much their faith has been corrupted. Seeing as how it comes from the source, I forsee no problems with arguments.
Here's a list of what it contains. My favorite part of the Bible. (Speaking as a Non-Christian)
- The Beatitudes (6:20-26) !!!
- Love your enemies and turn the other cheek (6:27-36) !!!
- Treat others the way you want to be treated (6:31) !!!
- Don't judge and you won't be judged, don't condemn and you won't be condemned, forgive and you will be forgiven, give and you will receive (6:37-38) !!!
- Can the blind lead the blind? Disciples are not above their teacher (6:39-40a)
- Take the log from your own eye before attending to the sliver in your friend's (40b- 42)
- A good tree does not produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, each tree is known by its fruit (43-45)
- Why do you call me Lord, Lord yet not do what I command? (46) !!!
- Whoever follows my instruction builds on rock and will survive, whoever does not builds on sand and will be destroyed (47-49)

I've marked with 3 excalamation points the most important parts that people should understand.

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. Yes, all important points, but somehow lost on the fundies. Not sure

how to wake them up to them so that they hear. (Interestingly, the Bible is full of imagery such as words falling on deafs ears and seeds falling on hard ground. But the Fundies don't recognize that they are being spoken to, at least not unless they are thinking about immoral things like perverted sex or overeating or drinking or something.)

[catbert836]

29. In that case

you need another Jesus. Not something easy to accomplish, to be sure, but it would be useful to have someone, a devoutly religious Christian hopefully, denounce the modern Pharisees and the hypocrites in the way Jesus did two thousand years ago.
Oh! I've got another idea!
In the end, it all boils down to psychology. People who read something (like the Bible) with their positions already developed tend to be very narrow-minded about it. For example, the fundies teach their children dogma before they let them read what the Bible actually says, leading them to see only what they think when they sit down and read the Bible. So if liberal Christians want to win the war in the long run, the secret lies in letting people read the Bible (especially the Gospels) themselves, and making their own conclusions, which should hopefully be the right ones.
If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.

[GreenPartyVoter]

31. Where kids are concerned, my husband.. a Bible-believing conservative

"ordered" me not to tell my kids what I believe. "None of that weird stuff. I don't want them going to Hell."

I am trying to help them to be:

1) well-reasoned

2) in touch with the mystical part of life

3) and still able to talk the "code" of their father's church.

Not easy, and they are only 5 and 7 so life is pretty black and white to them in the first place. I think things will not become difficult with their father until they start asking harder questions that have more nebulous answers from my point of view.

[catbert836]

32. Well, no offense toward your husband

But I think that, as their mother, you're entitled to tell your kids about your beliefs just as much as he's allowed to tell them his. I also see it as kind of weird that your husband would accept for one second that you, his wife, will be going to hell.
And I remember how it was when I was a kid: the world was the most absolutist place imaginable for me. I didn't start questioning my beliefs until they started switching from talking about heaven, angels, Jesus, and praying to talking about fire, brimstone, Satan, and jealous gods. So I think "the kids are alright".

[opiate69]

25. Was thinking about this today at work..

and it may at first seem a little far fetched and over the top, but people like you need to somehow, someway start your own ministries/movements (or whatever you want to call them). Find a way to present your positive take on xianity that will resonate, and get out there and make your movement bigger than the fire & brimstone set. Remember, people like Fallwell, Dobson and Robertson weren't born into the positions of power they now have.

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. Well, that was what I was thinking when I mentioned the need to

take our fair share of the airwaves. :) Just as political liberal accomplishments don't get much press neither do the religious liberal ones. So many people out there just don't know we exist or what we are working for.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Tired of nutty in your face fundies? Me too!
http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html

[JerseygirlCT]

28. Have you seen this site?

Might be interesting for you...

http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.592941/k.CB7C/Home.htm

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. Thanks!