Conservative Anglicans warn liberal churches in West (Reuters)

[Up2Late]

(Another Halloween gift from religious right.):eyes:

Conservative Anglicans warn liberal churches in West

Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:00 AM ET

By Edmund Blair

CAIRO (Reuters) - Traditionalist Anglican clerics warned the U.S. and Canadian churches on Monday that their liberal actions over gay rights were tearing apart the 450-year-old church and told them to change their ways urgently. In some of the strongest language they have used so far in an already acrimonious dispute, churches from Africa, Asia and Latin America said they saw no evidence yet that U.S. and Canadian Anglicans were responding to calls for "repentance."

The 77 million-strong Anglican church has been divided since 2003 when the U.S. Episcopal Church (ECUSA) ordained a gay bishop and Canadian Anglicans began blessing same-sex marriages. The move outraged traditionalists who dominate southern hemisphere churches, the so-called Global South. They say the Bible condemns homosexuality and that liberals in the West have introduced unacceptable "innovations" into biblical teaching.

"We recognize with regret the growing evidence that the provinces, which have taken action creating the current crisis in the (Anglican) communion, continue moving in a direction that will result in their walking apart," the group said in a communique issued on Monday after a six-day meeting in Egypt.

"We call for urgent and serious implementation of the recommendations of the Windsor Report," the group of 20 church provinces said, referring to an Anglican report which laid down steps to be taken in bid to resolve the dispute. The Windsor Report included calls for the U.S. and Canadian churches to express regret for their actions.

<http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=10108473&src=rss/domesticNews>
(more at link above)

[Maraya1969]

1. Why are they SO OBSESSED with HOMOSEXUALS?

Given all the problems in the world WHY do these Church's spend their time and money on homosexuality? There are people starving. There are people being oppressed and killed and living in poverty and sick and dying.

And they spend all their time on THIS?


This is why we must push the message that the Democratic Party is the true MORAL PARTY because we care about the welfare of people, animals land the world while they nit pick on stupid stuff that just adds more suffering to the world!

[noahmijo]

2. Because organized religion is nothing but a business

Deal with it. No form of organized religion has ever accomplished anything but hypocrisy and bloodshed.

[progressivebydesign]

6. And, it's a business run by a bunch of old men.

It's like walking into one of those car dealerships or carpet businesses run by a bunch of narrow minded, crotchedy old white men. Basically, it's the same thing. Women aren't welcome, gays aren't welcome, anyone questioning them on anything are not welcome.

I applaud churches that actually realize that faith is personal, and ALL people should be welcome. The few churches that are not exclusionary should be lauded... like U.U. and many U.C.C.

[sakabatou]

9. True dat.

[Up2Late]

3. Well said.

VERY well said.

[Seabiscuit]

5. Scratch a homophobe and find a guy worried about his sexuality.

[madeline_con]

22. Absloutely! n/t

[radio4progressives]

7. Just My Opinion....

based on occasional experiences in my life....

the people who I observed that were most obsessed most often, (not all) on the subject of homosexuality (and who always initiated the subject in the first place)also displayed certain behavior suggesting latent homosexuality themselves, but in deep denial.

These things of course are hard to prove, and then one gets into the quagmire of stereotyping or having to define what "homosexual mannerisms" are in Gays.

A few times in my life, I would have the odd recurrence of being involved with a lover who also happened to have been raised Catholic. And each one of these men, would have an absolute irrational hysteria of the mere existence of homosexuals.

Back in the mid seventies, the first time I was involved with one of these guys, (and the most extreme on the issue) he actually proclaimed that homosexuals needed to be removed from existence. He certainly thought that homosexuality should be against the law. He also argued vehemently that Homosexuality was a choice, and denied any possible genetic connection.

I kid you not.

And strangely, this guy at the time, was fairly liberal on all other social and environmental issues. Or at least so he presented himself to me. He was a Viet Nam vet, adamantly opposed to the war in Viet Nam. He was also a musician, a vegetarian, an environmentalist, raised and smoked cannabis and yet he actually proclaimed that homosexuals should be wiped off the face of the earth.

And the most odd thing about this, it was he who always initiated the subject - plus - long before we became intimately involved we were good friends that just pal'ed around and did things like hiked together, played music etc and all the time I assumed he was gay (based on behavior and other mannerisms that is often associated with Gays, albeit stereotype) and I never expected that we would end up being more intimate.

And finally, the entire subject of homosexuality never came up until AFTER we became lovers.

I know this is not scientific - but because I experienced similar patterns a few others later, I began to conclude those that scream the loudest, are likely to be latent gays themselves and are suffering from sort of self-loathing which is manifesting in this cultural and socio persecution of Gays and Lesbians in the public and legal fora.

And there's the fact that a lot of closet gays heading the churches.

I'm not a student of psychology, but that's just my take on this lunacy on the subject. Another theory I have is that their funding would dry up if they didn't take such a fascist stance on the issue.

edited for grammatical and spelling errors...

[Maraya1969]

11. I think you and Seabiscuit are right. When I was in my teens I started

having homosexual feelings and I was absolutely terrified. I found myself afraid to look at another woman for fear I would become attracted to her. I thought being gay was like a death sentence that I could not face.

It was only when I found another group of friends who were very accepting of all types of sexuality that I ended up having my first gay affair.

Interesting, several years after that I started to feel straight again and THAT scared me! I had become comfortable with the gay lifestyle and the idea that I had to re-do me was hard to accept.

Now I think that I am not on one side or other of the straight/gay continuum but somewhere about 45% off center. :) Nothing is so black and white anymore. And I think that I am probably like a lot of people.

I also have a friend now who has told me she was terrified at different times in her life at the thought that she might be gay. I don't think it is that uncommon. I just think most people don't act on it.

[Up2Late]

23. You should really hear this episode of "This American Life..."

It's in RealAudio, or you can get it from Audable .com too.
Here's the description from the website, Nancy Updike's story is just too cute for words:

<http://207.70.82.73/pages/descriptions/04/268.html>

<http://www.thislife.org/>

My Experimental Phase

6/25/04
Episode 268

Three stories about people who decide to try out a new life – the kind of life their parents never wanted for them.

Prologue. How does a person who's not gay convince herself that she is, for two years? This American Life host Ira Glass talks to one of the show's contributing editors, Nancy Updike, about her two-year stint believing she was a lesbian, even though she was not attracted to women. (8 minutes)

Act One. That's Funny, You Don't Look Jewish. Chaim and Billy both lived in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, just blocks away from each other, in worlds that almost never collided. Chaim was a Hasidic Jew – he'd never heard pop music or watched MTV. Billy Campion, known as the rocker Vic Thrill, was the star of an underground band. Billy put Chaim, who took on the name Curly Oxide, into the band, and in just one year, he leapt from the 19th Century into the 21st. David Segal, rock critic for the Washington Post, reports. (39 minutes)
Song: "CE-5," Vic Thrill

Act Two. Miami Vices. A nice Florida girl changes high schools, and takes the opportunity to try on a new personality. The slutty kind. Sascha Rothchild reads from her own teenage diary. Her story was first recorded for Mortified, a stage show in Los Angeles, produced by David Nadelberg. Its website: www.getmortified.com. (8 minutes)
Song: "Dear Diary," Pink

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. Why tackle tough issues when there are easy targets?

From what I've seen, that is basically what it comes down to. Find some group that is generally disliked and make them responsible for all the evil, pain and suffering in the world. There is no point in feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, visiting the imprisioned or working for social justice because as long as there exists any Jews / Muslims / witches /heretics /blacks / homosexuals / feminists / unmarried mothers / communists / flag-burners / pot pushers / members of the ACLU, Satan rules this world and God can not work openly to make it all better. So why bother?

[Maraya1969]

19. You have a really good point there. It's easier to point the finger than

deal with real issues, especially if they happen to be your own personal ones.

[gratuitous]

4. Conservatives warn "hate God's people or else"!

I guess their Bibles don't include 1 John.

[patcox2]

8. Liberal anglicans response to 3rd world bigots:

fuck off; The day I take tips on how to run a civilized society from Nigeria will be a sad day.

[funflower]

10. Do the actual English Anglicans have anything to say? Kind of funny

that the fight is between Asian/African/Latin American "Anglicans" and U.S./Canadian "Anglicans."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. The resentment is against North American Anglicans in particular because

they're the ones who have ordained "out" gay and lesbian priests and now a bishop.

I don't think the English church has, although in my readings of English novels, there are plenty of references to vicars and the like who seem not so interested in women.

The Third World churches are the result of colonial-supported missionary efforts in the nineteenth century, and as transplants often do, they preserve older forms of the religion (e.g. as Quebecois French preserves older French pronunciation or some Scandinavian-American Lutherans preserve the principle of abstaining from alchohol because their ancestors emigrated during the height of the temperance movement there).

The Third World clerics seem kind of like my grandmother in their attitude toward homosexuality. They prefer to pretend that it doesn't exist and that it's "a sin," and they get very flustered and puzzled when someone acts otherwise.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. The Church of England is trying to hold it all together

which means it straddles the fence uncomfortably. The Archbishop of Canterbury has said he knowingly ordained at least one homosexual priest when he was a bishop, but since becoming Archbishop he doesn't seem to want to try for any further advancement of homosexuals in the hierarchy - a 'currently celibate' homosexual priest was appointed as a bishop in England, but he withdrew after much publicity and pressure.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. From what I've read the English church is beset with

political fighting over this. The faction that would support equal rights gets hammered by the (loud) faction that will not support it. There seems to be some fear of losing parishioners to newer, more fundamentalist churches. In answer, some very conservative Anglican churches have sprung up.

The ABC seems to move from nearly accepting of rights to outright paralysis and fear of the right. So we get a sort of willy-nilly "solution" that pleases no one, and has no logical consistency at all.

I found the following book very interesting on the topic:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1850434808/002-0278797-2888049?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

[CatBoreal]

12. I have one word for these Conservative Churches...

COPE!

The world is changing, they need to deal with that.

[kevinbgoode]

13. Wow. . .we are supposed to provide human sacrifices for

these Third World congregations who originated through colonialized missionary coercion?

I don't think so. Let them fund themselves and break away if that's what they want. They need to just stop threatening and do the dirty deed. . .it might be nice to actually use our resources for our own people for a change, instead of funding their "strings-attached" programs to assault members of their own population.

[davidinalameda]

14. here's another story on same subject

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/10/103105angican.htm

Anglican primates from throughout the developing world ended a six-day conference in Alexandria Egypt on Monday by issuing a strongly worded threat to the Episcopal Church in the United States and the Anglican Church of Canada.

In a closing statement the bishops, who represent about half of the world's 77-million Anglicans, accused the churches in the US and Canada of tearing the denomination apart and said that liberals in the West have introduced unacceptable "innovations" into biblical teaching - a direct reference to the election of a gay bishop in New Hampshire and same-sex blessing services in British Columbia.

The statement said that church traditionalists have seen no sign that the North American churches were about to "repent" for their actions. The statement demanded that they change their ways urgently.

don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. "[U]nacceptable 'innovations' into biblical teaching...

Like the doctrine that divorce is acceptable.

Ironic, isn't it, that of all the Christian denominations, it is the Anglican Church that screams so much about "innovations" in Biblical teaching.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. Many of those screaming about this

are far more accepting (in a turn a blind eye to it) polygamy and other "cultural" institutions. It's simply their bigotry about homosexuality that leads to excusing themselves under the guise of "traditionalism".

[QC]

24. When the church in Africa finally abandons polygamy,

then it might have grounds to lecture others on "traditional Christian morals."

But not until then.