Greetings to all new Christian DUers!

[InvisibleBallots]

I feel we need more vocal Christian Democrats here on DU, to help refute the vile lies of the GOP - that the Democrats are anti-Christian, anti-religious, and against the majority culture of the US. It's obvisouly not true, but then again truth has nothing to do with GOP propaganda.

Every Christian DUer that posts helps us. Welcome.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jo March]

2. And what do you mean by that, salmon fishing?

I post here and I'm a Christian. I try to welcome everyone equally. Christians post on this forum all of the time. We just don't ram our Christianity down anyone's throat. :)

[BeTheChange]

3. But I also think..

That we self censor.

[Jo March]

7. I don't but I am careful not to assume that my audience

wants me to pray for them or give them a Bible verse.

I am just careful of people's feelings. I feel that I can show my Christian faith by being tolerant and loving of others. :)

[idiosyncratic]

4. I am a Christian, but I've had to stop attending church.

I can't attend the church I was attending because of their anti-gay, pro-* stance. :cry:

[BeTheChange]

5. I also dont attend church..

We moved from California to Dallas, the heart of the Bible belt. This place is amazing! I went to a megachurch called Prestonwood for the Christmas Show last year. Goodness! It was definately a production. It could have been on broadway. In anycase, there was a starbucks in the lobby area.

Something about the verse.. money changers get out of my father's temple and seeing a starbucks in the lobby of a church kinda damped my desire to find a church in this area.

[happyslug]

11. Reminds me the story of President Andrew Johnstown (1865-1868)

During his impeachment when he went to Church on Sunday he went to the local CATHOLIC church instead one of the local Protestant churches (and he was a good Protestant) for the Catholics had all of their Parishioners together, rich and poor, sick and well, drunk and sober, all together instead of the assigned pews in the Puritan churches. He called the paid for pews like the money-changers. To many rich people in the Protestant Church for him, he like the mix in the Catholic Church of his time period.

Remember he was the only other President ever impeached (and he was acquitted like Clinton on a Straight Party line vote, No Democratic Senator has ever voted to remove a Sitting President).

[idiosyncratic]

13. The pastor of my church here in San Diego area came from Dallas

And what you describe is what he is attempting to build here.

He is a good Bible scholar and his messages were excellent, but during his anti-gay message based on the Sodom and Gomorrah story, I got up and walked out. I went right out the door in the back. An action that allowed lots of light to enter the room.

[BeTheChange]

23. My fiance's father..

once stood up in the middle of a Jim Jones revival and told him he was not preaching the word of God.

Light is cleansing.

[InvisibleBallots]

27. wow, I would have bought a ticket to see that one!

:hi:

[tanyev]

15. Welcome to Texas!

You must have gone to Prestonwood Baptist. Yes, it's a whole other reality here in North Texas. I live in Plano, but I'm a Lutheran. We're quite a bit more low key than that, at least the church I attend.

:hi:

[BeTheChange]

21. Thanks!

Whew. It has definately been a journey and Im still entirely unaware of the final destination. There is such a powerful dichotomy of christianity here. I love how Prestonwood has a Power lunch on Tuesdays and people just go there to network with other people.

What's odd is that I am so amazed by all of this. My fiance's father is an AG pastor. I mean, those folks speak in tongues :) But I think that Ive had the good fortune of being surrounded by good Christians in the last 5-10 years. Actually, probably just good people in general. The beauty of California was a spiritual panacea. Altho, I do think it may very well be the most traditionally Godless state Ive ever been to.

[trotsky]

52. There's a Starbucks IN the church?!?

Holy crap (literally)! Money changers, indeed.

[tanyev]

53. Oh, yeah, IN the church.

Can't praise Jesus without that java. Wonder if they know that Starbucks is blue?

[Jo March]

54. Well, so much for moneychanging in the temple, right?

That is unbelievable.

[MemphisTiger]

58. Aww, c'mon a man need a cup of coffee in the morning.

(note the sarcasm).

Seriously, that's crazy. I would just find another church if it was me. There has to be a good one around. We have a few of those churches around here, no starbucks in the lobby that I know of, but some are good some are bad.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Yeah, but most churches give coffee away for free

Starbucks???? :wtf:

[Nevernose]

35. Evangelical Lutheran

Pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-evolution. They're just not very vocal on the subjects.

And a fairly widespread congregation, to boot. I can almost guarantee that there's one within fifty miles of you.

[WI_DEM]

6. What we need more of on DU is tolerance

of every view point. Spiritual or political.

[BeTheChange]

8. Well said. n/t

[Royal Observer]

9. Too much tolerance

leads to intolerance.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

10. Huh?

Care to fill us in on that?

[BeTheChange]

14. I never quite thought about it that way.

I think that we as a society worry about being too PC. We have lost the human connections that we used to have and now we kinda paint ourselves into these little paradigms of blanket politically "correct" assumptions.

At some point the pendulum swings the other way. It's hard to find a balance :)

[mzmolly]

12. Thanks, I'm not new and don't meet the *fundie* version of the word

Christian, but I'll take that welcome.

:hi:

I agree we need an OUT Christian Left movement. But a movement that stresses tolerance for all views.

[idiosyncratic]

18. I agree completely. And that tolerance needs to start on DU.

I have seen posts on DU written by non-believers where our beliefs are ridiculed.

Don't those people realize that changing our Christian belief would be like asking us to become Rethuglicans?

[InvisibleBallots]

19. as long as the only Christians in the Corporate Media are Jerry Faultwell

and Pat Rubertson, people who don't pay much attention and people who are only nominally Christian will assume that the GOP is the party for Christians, and people often identify with their "tribe" more than they do anything else.

[knitter4democracy]

16. Hi!

I completely agree that we Christians need to speak up. I'm trying in my own circles, not just to re-claim real Christian morals (why do fundies always seem to forget the two greatest commandments?) but also to listen to those who've been hurt by Christians in the past. We need to start some serious grass-roots organizing, even we Eastern Orthodox Christians (who tend not to get into that a whole lot).

[maxsolomon]

17. you can shit in one hand

and wish for moderate & liberal christians to take back christ from the fundy evangelical end times fascists in the other...

& which one will fill up first?

[cally]

20. Welcome to ALL DUers

I think you mean well, but we should welcome all Dems. We are the 'big tent' party.

[InvisibleBallots]

29. of course, but I think we're seeing more Christians

getting involved in Democratic politics after this election. I wish more would have gotten involved earlier. So, I just made a thread for that.

[genieroze]

22. Howdy. I'm not new but hello anyway

I don't agree with everything this site says but I agree with much of it.

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

edited to add link, duh

[mitchum]

24. You guys also need to be taking your religion back from the haters and...

conmen. It wasn't MY faith that was hijacked (and they won't listen to criticism from a godless heathen like me anyway)

[BeTheChange]

26. This is definately true..

Christianity is in a sorry state when we collectively sit on our bottoms and let people like Fallwell represent our faith.

There is fear all over the place but perhaps the changes are coming. I read a story on DU about a pastor from NH, I think, named Lavon that was challenging the current constructs of the protestant belief system. Let's hope there are more that speak up.

[idiosyncratic]

28. It is hard to counter their statements because they use

the "faith" word. Logic never enters the picture. What they believe is the Truth!

My Christian faith is, in their opinion, lacking, since I don't want to hate homosexuals and won't vote Rethuglican.

[sweetheart]

25. Greetings to all human beings on the planet earth

Be not fooled by petty identity polititics of cult beliefs. You are
all of the human species, homo erectus... it means y'all were born of
an erect penis and a womb.... fact.

Spare us your mental fantasies about your science fiction origins and
ultimate endings. For the moment, share with us a cup of tea and
a polite chat about the weather. Oh dear. Someone's gone and made
a war and a mass murdering... someone in texas.

Whomever that filthy clan of tripe is identified with, please isolate
them, like healthy cells isolate a virused cell, that the whole might
survive the heard impulse towards lemming extinction... and a return
to the confederacy of willful slavery.

And may the lord god of the great tree of albuquerque bless the holy
bugs bunny who died for your sins. :-) Silly rabbit, identity
politics are for kids.

[fishingriver]

30. Dividing the Faith

I am a Catholic liberal. After John Kerry won the Iowa caucus I watched in awe as conservative Bishops played politics with the sacraments. They started a controversy designed to make Kerry (who is a Catholic) look like he was unworthy of taking communion. They disguised it by saying that any politician who supported abortion rights should not take communion, but no one missed the point that Kerry was being attacked.
About a month prior to the election they put out these flyers in our parish that had tips for Catholic voters. It was a thinly veiled endorsement for George W Bush and many were quick to protest this. The Bishop in Kansas City defended this by publicly saying it was not intended to endorse any candidate, but rather to give Catholics an idea of what to look for in their choices.
In response to an email, the Bishop took a much different position and defended the decision wholeheartedly. It was obvious he supported Bush and didn't care what any liberal catholics thought of the Church's position.
The Bishop made a point about the catholic church always having had the same position on abortion. The only problem is that there have been more abortions performed in the US since Bush took office than in the previous four years. * The reason being increased poverty.
My question is why did they change their position by endorsing a candidate who has no respect for international laws regarding human rights and who rigidly supports the death penalty, even for minors? The Bush domestic agenda in concert with a republican majority will guarantee that we never see universal health coverage in America. 47 million Americans are currently with no health protection what-so-ever, and the number is going to rise steadily with an administration who protects insurance companies, fatten the rich and ignore the poor.
It was entertaining to read the Bishop (or whoever actually wrote his email for him) try to spin the numbers on the catholic vote. In the spirit of Rush Limbaugh he left out the fact that nationwide Catholics voted 52%** for Bush, while in previous elections democrats have had a 52-55% share of that vote nationally. Catholics represent nearly 30%*** of the total vote in America. Lets do the math here- an 8% increase from 30% of the total vote = 2.4%. This accounts for nearly all of Bush's majority.
The difference in the direction of the Catholic vote was undoubtedly made by the Church's endorsement of the Bush administration. If this were not true, the Catholics would have defeated Bill Clinton in 96, and Kerry would have had comparable numbers to Gore from 2000. But Kerry didn't because of the "no communion" political war waged by conservative Bishops, and the voting instructions for Bush. **** The democrat platform didn't change...the church did.
Bishop Boland in KC had better grow those soup kitchens because there are going to be a lot more Americans lining up to find a meal thanks to their political endorsement. Perhaps the insurance companies and drug companies will up their tithes to offset the loss of a few of the black sheep like myself? Or perhaps the Bush administration will increase funding to the church? 300 in child tax credits for every member of the congregation and 30 silver pieces to catholic charities?
I wonder what Bishop Boland and the new right wing political arm of the catholic church will do when Bush doesn't overturn Roe vs Wade but manages to create another war in the middle east? 100,000 more Iraqis are dead because of the man the church endorsed. 1,300 plus Americans killed fighting a war based on a lie from the man they put their trust in.
Perhaps they will repent, but I have my doubts. The church definitely has one thing in common with Bush, the inability to admit a mistake. I am leaving before the evangelicals get enough power to show their real feelings toward Catholics. Outside of election time they don't think any Catholics will enter the Kingdom of God. They scorn and ridicule us when they aren't manipulating us for votes.
Perhaps the Bishops will protect catholics by requesting parishioners join them in a few rounds of snake handling or speaking in tongues. Anything is possible now and there is nothing that would surprise me. I am not hanging around to watch.

Sources- Sojourners, CNN, PBS, Fox News
* http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041013/dcw068_1.html
** http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html
*** http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week409/cover.html
**** http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134723,00.html

[InvisibleBallots]

32. wow - the numbers are revealing

Good point about just taking a small percentage of the Catholic can tip the vote one way or another.

There are more Catholics than Evangelicals aren't there? I think the "Fundie Menace" problem is mostly hype. As odious as the theocratic faction may be, they are not in charge of the government except perhaps symbolically, and they don't have the numbers to threaten anybody.

[RevCheesehead]

31. I am a liberal United Methodist pastor

and not relatively new to DU - been lurking since the summer.

Is this a good time to ask if there is interest in forming a Christian Democrats group?

In the forums, I have found "prayer circle", "Religious Freedom and Theology", and "Catholics and Orthodox" groups. But what I'm looking for is a place for plain ol' Christian folk may gather and discuss various ideas about the world and politics from a Christian perspective. Resources could include Sojourners material, etc..., but it could also be seen as a support group as well.

Any takers?

[InvisibleBallots]

33. Do they have a general Protestant group?

I'm not sure.

[RevCheesehead]

36. Nope. I haven't seen one.

which is why I posed the question.

[cally]

34. You should post this as a separate thread

I would be interested. Include a mission statement. Here's just an idea:

The purpose to this group is to discuss politics from a liberal Christian perspective. This group will discuss how to counter the RW fundamentalist and their attack on mainstream Christianity. We will discuss why we are liberal and Christians.

[RevCheesehead]

37. hmm... I'm not in the best mood to post right now...

Still lickin' my wounds from some bashing yesterday and today.

I like the mission statement. But what I was envisioning was a kind of Christian Lounge, where anything goes - except bashing one another.

If you're up to it, why not go ahead and post it, cally? :)

[cally]

41. OK...but will you please post on the thread and

modify the mission statement. What's another flamefest? ;-)

[RevCheesehead]

44. Thanks, cally!

I posted on your other thread.

Please see below - I just got another idea for the mission statement.

[hickman1937]

38. Very good idea

Please do it. I'm in

[goodbody]

46. me too

[BeTheChange]

39. I'd be interested..

Ive searched for something similar but end up on sites full of rapture ready people that cheer the signs.

[fishingriver]

40. Rev Cheesehead

I would be interested if you aren't opposed to a wandering Catholic in your midst?

[RevCheesehead]

43. I've dated a few wandering Catholics!

I think this group would be all-inclusive Christians and friends of Christians. We won't focus on our differences, but rather, look at ecumenical ways of expressing our faith and advancing our political beliefs.

Damn! Cally! Add that to the mission statement!

[Kat45]

42. For those Christians who have stopped attending church,

see if there's a UCC church near you and check it out. It is a liberal Protestant denomination, but you'd have to check the individual church because each church governs itself (so there may be differences in their liberalness). I belong to a Congregational church that's part of the UCC and I've never met as nice a group of people in one place before. Our minister often preaches about social justice; he can't stand bush or his policies. This is the church running those commercials that networks deemed "too controversial" to air. I guess they think it's controversial to say that you welcome everybody, no matter who they are.

[RevCheesehead]

45. Please see this other post in the lounge:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2295667#2296718

A proposal for a new group: Christian Liberals. If you'd like to join such a group, and if you have suggestions to add to our mission statement, please link to the above group.

The Cheese

[Bouncy Ball]

47. Hello!

:hi:

Member of the spiritual left here! But I don't go around reminding people of it all the time.

[goodbody]

48. who was talking about reminding people to be spiritualy left?

it was a proposition to form a new group, or a group of like-minded people who would like interesting Christian discussion. There were lots of other threads to click on if you didn't approve of this thread.

BTW, your response has made it clear you are doing NOTHING but reminding people of how important you feel your views are as compared to theirs.

Maybe you should Bounce Off this thread...?

[RevCheesehead]

49. It's OK - Bouncy is cool.

I do not think her intention is to disrupt. She's just chiming in, and responding to the original post.

[Bouncy Ball]

51. EXCUSE ME?

What the hell???? All I meant was IN CONTRAST TO THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT, I don't go around beating people over the head reminding them I have religious beliefs.

Damn. Talk about misinterpreting a post and going off on someone. You might want to try ASKING some questions for clarification before you pull that shit again.

[goodbody]

62. Well, excuse me! I thought this thread was about the left

forming a group here online. I would never have even thought your context was about the religious right in the context of this thread.

And you're right; No need to beat people over the head about your religious beliefs. I thought this thread was an invitation for like-minded people to share, not a reminder of what you don't want to talk about.

So sorry to have offended you!

[RevCheesehead]

50. See? This is what I mean.

We get a discussion going, and it gets moved to the "Religion and Theology" forum. Not really a catch-all, discussion-friendly place.

That's why I think it would be good to have a GROUP - not be part of a forum. Forums (forii?) are too heady, IMHO. I'd like to see a Liberal Christians group that functions like the Lounge, but without the disruptions that come with posting in the Lounge.

Actually, I wonder if anyone is reading this at all. O8)

[RUDUing2]

55. but don't you have to be a paying member to access those groups?

[LDS Jock]

56. I found it here.. so someone saw your post

and I think its a wonderful idea too. I hope it gets going. It would be nice to have one place on DU safe from religion bashing and also a place to discuss moblizing the religious left.

[InvisibleBallots]

57. This is the THIRD cateogry this post has travelled to!

Freaking hilarious - it's as if no one has a clue what to do with it. I mean, I expected a handful of flames, by definition - but wow, three copycats threads, three locks and recatigorizations?

I had no idea that the concept of Christians voting Democratic was so controversial. Makes you think about oh, the frame that our political system is operating in.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2295350#2299004

[catbert836]

59. We are a valuble part of this process

The Christian Right will be impossible to defeat without us.

[GreenPartyVoter]

61. Be glad to help, but don't discount those of us further left of the Dems

:D

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/