How important to you is the Separation of Church and State?

[More Than A Feeling]

The Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

This is my second poll on the feelings about religious/political issues in this forum. The first can be found here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=39724

On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being most important and 1 being least, how important to you is the Separation of Church and State?

[tx_dem41]

1. I voted for "10". n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. It's why we came here

[More Than A Feeling]

4. Not completely true. The Puritans fled religious persecution

but in turn, persecuted whom they wanted at their Massachusetts Bay colony, where "only Puritans could vote or serve in the state assembly"(Rob Boston, Why the Religious Right is Wrong about Separation of Church and State, P. 56). Just thought I'd point that out.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. Well, it's still why we came here

but we just didn't quite get the hang of it!

[sam sarrha]

9. actually "We" came here because the Inquisition wasn't strict enough..

Puritans wanted a totally Rigid and unforgiving rule over themselves and others

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. Okay, now i'm confused

I thought the Inquisition was to ferret out bad Catholics in Spain?

[kwassa]

24. America was settled primarily by corporations trying to make money

and as I recall, the Pilgrims and Puritans, two different groups, were employees of those corporations. The corporations were the ones who put up the initial capital to fund the voyages, and often had rights to territories.

[trotsky]

16. Bingo!

The Puritans were upset because England wouldn't let them control others to their liking.

[tjwmason]

22. Both Connecticut and Virginia had Episcopalianism as the established

Church long after the revolution.

Plenty of folk who went to the then American colonies were perfectly happy with the Church of England.

[noamnety]

3. 10

You can't have freedom in a theocracy.

[The River]

5. I Just Wish People Would Recognize

The obvious seperation between Church & Reality.

[havocmom]

6. Best take on the issue to date

:thumbsup:

[More Than A Feeling]

7. Look, one of my threads has already gotten out of hand

because of stuff like that. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x42950

This is a serious question, not a spitwad-throwing contest.

[greyl]

14. I think that response can be taken seriously.

It's the kind of answer that renders the original question meaningless, which is why I suppose you describe it as a "spitwad". ;)

[jonnyblitz]

18. to an atheist it is a serious response. although some atheists

who want to remain in good favor with the religionist majority would never admit to it to your face.

[Coastie for Truth]

10. Second most important amendment of the Bill of Rights

:sarcasm: - but not completely

The Second Amendment "enforces" the First Amendment.

[Maat]

11. This Juris Doctor (law degree) said it was a '10.'

And I'm a person of faith - my personal belief system - and my child's. We attend an open, affirming, welcoming and inclusive church that honors all paths.

And it's what we PRIVATELY do - with no government sponsorship.

And so, I expect no government sponsorship of anyone's else's religion - and no preference of one religion over another.

Fundamentalist churches are being favored with government dollars right now. Not one non-fundamentalist-Christian organization has been directly awarded money.

Just a disgusting violation of OUR law and the spirit of justice.

[no_hypocrisy]

12. 10 - Legally and ethically.

Die Gedanken Sind Frei (My Thoughts Are Free)

Die Gedanken sind frei.
My thoughts freely flower.
Die Gedanken sind frei.
My thoughts give me power.
No scholar can map them.
No hunter can trap them.
No person can deny
Die Gendanken sind frei!

I think as I please,
And this gives me pleasure.
My conscience decrees
This right I must treasure.
My thoughts will not cater
To duke or dictator.
No person can deny
Die Gedanken sind frei.

And should tyrants take me
And throw me in prison,
My thoughts will burst free
Like blossoms in season
Foundations will crumble
And structures will tumble
And free people shall cry
"Die Gedanken sind frei!"

This song was sung by German freethinkers during their hiding from the Third Reich.

[beam me up scottie]

13. I had almost forgotten about that song.

Thank you so much for posting it.

My mother was a refugee in Germany during the war.

[trotsky]

17. Seeing all the 10s encourages me, but then...

when push comes to shove on DU, most Christians don't want to ruffle the reich-wing believer's feathers by taking "controversial" stands like getting God references removed from our pledge and money, or opposing Utah's use of state funds and logos to erect giant religious symbols next to highways.

So unfortunately I have to question the sincerety of a lot of "10" voters.

[beam me up scottie]

20. I'm with you, trotsky.

Sure makes you wonder where all of those apologists came from.

It's like religion except this is Constitution Cafeteria, where people pick and choose when to defend it depending on how popular the cases are.

Good thing the people at the ACLU don't do the same thing or we'd be living in a complete theocracy instead of a pseudo one.

[Goblinmonger]

27. It won't come as a surprise to many that I also agree with you

I was going to post the same thing. I am glad you beat me to it because my version had a lot more swear words and would probably have pissed a lot more people off.

[Dervill Crow]

19. Definitely 10. n/t

[NMMNG]

21. It is critical

Without it we are in grave danger of losing so many of our most cherished freedoms (the ones we haven't lost already).

[tjwmason]

23. In the U.S. very important.

That's part of your history and constitutional frame-work.

Here in England we have an established church (Bishops appointed by the Queen, some Bishops sit in Parliament), Scotland has a national church, Wales was disestablished in the 1920s. Some Scandinavian countries have national churches, I believe that in Germany each of the laender is officially either protestant or Catholic, in Italy and France the actual buildings are owned by the state. I do not believe that with our history, and the nature of the Church of England atheists, other Christians, or other religions are in any sense oppressed - many members of other religions actually support the establishment of the C.ofE.

To each (country) their own.

[AndreiX]

25. Hands off my mind!

With the Bush Administration continuing to unleash its theocratic agenda, and its constant promoting of fundamentalists into key positions of society, I feel very concerned (nay, TERRIFIED) as an Atheist. Separation of Church and State is VERY important to me as an atheist living in a mainly Christian nation, because I refuse to have my rights trampled on!

Also, I am a Communist, and I envision religion being handled in a very different way in a socialist society:

Religion

An important question that the proletarian state will have to deal with is religion and religious activity. The socialist state will uphold people’s right to worship and to hold religious services and will provide them with the necessary facilities and materials for doing so. Religious people will not, however, be allowed special privileges, nor will they be permitted to use religious activity as a means to promote reactionary political movements. The proletarian state will monitor and regulate their finances to prevent them from becoming a source of capital or otherwise employed in violation of the principles and laws of the socialist state.

When forces do arise within the new society who attempt to carry out counter-revolutionary political activities and/or the exploitation of the masses under the cloak of religion, they will be prevented from doing so and politically suppressed, together with counter-revolutionaries of all other kinds. But as long as religious people do not actively organize against the continuing revolution, they will be allowed to hold services and other similar activities.

At the same time, communists are atheists: they do not believe in super­natural forces or beings of any kind and instead understand that it is the masses themselves who, through taking up and applying the principles of Marxism, must and will achieve their own emancipation and continually advance humanity’s understanding of and transformation of nature. And further, they recognize that the role of religion is to instill in the masses the sense that they are powerless before the forces of nature, and those that rule over them in society, and to console them in their misery rather than arousing them to rise up and abolish the source of it through revolutionary struggle.

The Party, as the leading force of the working class and in the proletarian state, cannot and must not attempt to force people to give up religious beliefs. Rather, it must wage an ideological struggle over this question and rely on those among the masses who hold such beliefs to cast them off on their own. And this they will do, as they come to see—through the advance of the revolution, the masses’ increasing mastery over society, and their continually developing ability to know and change the world in general—that these religious beliefs are incorrect and, more, that they are a burden carried over from capitalism and the dead weight of backward tradition.

Therefore, the proletarian state will, on the one hand, uphold the right of people to believe in religion and, on the other hand, will propagate atheism and educate the masses in the scientific world view of Marxism in opposition to all religious beliefs.

Through the educational system and other means, the Bible, the Torah, the Koran and other religious works and doctrine will be analyzed and criticized with the science of Marxism. In this way—and in general through the process of ideological struggle and persuasion, together with the overall advance through the socialist revolution toward communism—the masses themselves will be enabled to break and cast away the bond of religion and other mental and material shackles and achieve their full emancipation.

-from The Draft Programme of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA, available at http://revcom.us/

What do you guys think?

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. 10. One look at Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other theocracies...

And you will see exactly what happens when church and state become the same. Thank you, but no.