Does spirituality have anything to do with religion?

[LaurenG]

In my opinion religion pollutes spirituality yet it is the foundation for many who consider themselves spiritual. Leading me to ask, are atheists spiritual? Since most atheist (the ones I know) consider themselves moral would that translate to mean that they are also spiritual? If you remove the sentence "achieve a closer connection to Deity" from the paragraph below, does this definition fit for someone who chooses atheism?

One aspect of 'Being spiritual' is goal-directed, with aims such as: simultaneously improve one's wisdom and willpower, achieve a closer connection to Deity/the universe, and remove illusions or false ideas at the sensory, feeling and thinking aspects of a person. The 'Plato's cave' analogy in book VII of The Republic is one of the most well known descriptions of the spiritual development process, and thus, an excellent aid in understanding what "spiritual development" exactly entails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

I wonder what true spirituality is and who really fits into that definition.

[SteppingRazor]

1. I know plenty of moral atheists as well...

And all of them would balk at being referred to as "spiritual"

[LaurenG]

3. But if you take the definition without the mention of Deity

they fit perfectly. I thought it was very telling that they are truly lovers of life and "things" that are good yet they aren't considered spiritual. I feel that they are probably more spiritual than many religious especially the fanatics.

[lvx35]

7. No, atheists are materialists usually.

The belief in an absolute, observable reality which is physical in nature, and that everything else is a fantasy.

[LaurenG]

21. But the spiritual side of that is that most (my friends)

would never think of hurting someone just because their ego needed something to do. They are better at controlling the impulses and desire to hurt, kill, maime or screw over others becaue it made them feel powerful. They just wouldnt go there. Am I delusional or using too small a group as my "control group"?

[lvx35]

24. well there is no doubt that good and bad atheists, or religious.

I've pondered the dillemma of the moral atheist myself, and talked to a fair amount of them around here, because my morality is DEEPLY rooted in spirituality too. Here's my current theory about moral athiests though: Pretty much anybody who admits to being an atheist is actually fairly moral right off the bat, or not that bright. The reason for this is that there is actually a social disadvantage to being an atheist in a dominantly religious/spiritual culture like our own, so to come out and say it actually takes a certain amount of principle, just as a trait of the individual. The immoral atheists, on the other hand, quickly realize the power to be had in parasitizing and manipulating trusting and giving people of faith, and will generally feign religiosity for social advantage...So the most immoral athiests will never admit to it.

Its a theory! :)

edit: The above excludes the anti-social atheists, who derive a sense of pleasure from attacking people's beliefs.

[DIKB]

2. Doubt it.

Spirituality is too flexible for most rigid religions.

[LaurenG]

9. Well I guess I'm not considering the viewpoint of the

"rigid" religious as I feel they are misguided in their thinking. I would love to know what an atheist would think?

[DIKB]

13. I'm agnostic/atheist

I find myself non-spiritual. I enjoy conjecture, and often take a look at spirituality.

The belief in a "god" is personification. Attempting to portray a greater force in terms our minds find pleasing and acceptable.

Is there an order/force behind everything? Possibly.

Is it a "god" ? I say, no.

Do I owe it anything ? Only to live my life in an ethical manner.

Secular Humanism. Is doing right by others, because it is the right thing, spiritual ?

I act more out of a sense of what is right, and leave the idea that "we are all one being experiencing itself subjectively" in the back of my mind. It's fun to think about, but I don't live my life by it.

[LaurenG]

15. I strongly connect ethical behaivior to spirituality

for the spirit of something is what is broadcast for the world to see. I hold in high esteem those who can practice their beliefs while truly caring about morals and ethics.

[lvx35]

20. What's so bad about personification anyway?

I figure if you take the materialist/physical worldview, where every aspect of human beings is seen as material (the same stuff as the rest of the universe) and flip it upside down its just as good. Instead of seeing ourselves as material, why not see material as "ourselves", in other words, if its all the same stuff, why not personify the universe?

[LaurenG]

25. I see no problem with that either I just think a truer definition

would help ME to connect the knowledge in my head to INCLUDE everyone rather than try to make anyone the bad guy. I think everyone carries the truth in themselves and no one is entirely wrong.

[lvx35]

32. Okay. Fair enough.

Here's my idea of what the purest form of spirituality is. For me, it comes from Gandhi. I think he was the greatest spiritual philosopher of our time. The term is Satyagraha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagra
And it means to struggle to uncover Truth. Gandhi believed that while some said "God is Truth" he prefered "Truth is God". There are a few ideas here, one is the admission of our incomplete understanding of Truth (God). Another is an emphasis of our own work in it, our own struggle. This is the purest spirituality in my eyes. It encompasses the idea of the transcendental experience, spiritual or otherwise, it encompasses the work of the scientist, it encompasses almost all positive human endeavor. It does not, however encompass any belief system where one believes truth comes without struggle, which basically includes fundamentalism, dogma, or atheism (where one asserts with certainty the non-existance of God) but it does include agnosticism, or the state of not believing in God because one has not seen proof to support the notion.

[lvx35]

4. I haven't meet a "spiritual" atheist, but I there are spiritual people who

don't believe in "God" in any but the broadest sense. I can really relate to this position, it makes a lot of sense to me.

[Bill McBlueState]

5. look at how the wiki entry starts out

"Spirituality is, in a narrow sense, a concern with matters of the spirit, however that may be defined; but it is also a wide term with many available readings. It may include belief in supernatural powers, as in religion, but the emphasis is on personal experience. It may be an expression for life perceived as higher, more complex or more integrated with one's worldview, as contrasted with the merely sensual."

Just from reading that, "spirituality" is so nebulously defined that I have a hard time saying whether anything or anyone is spiritual. Some people may claim to "be spiritual" and that's fine with me, but it doesn't tell me much about them. Are atheists spiritual? Maybe by someone's definition, some atheists are spiritual. But most of us would probably respond by noting the vagueness of the definition.

[LaurenG]

11. If I use my definition

the one I go by in my own head, I feel that those who claim atheism (those I know)are MORE spiritual than the majority of those following a specific religion.

Yes it is hard to decide with a definition that can't be agreed on I just thought it was so telling that many atheist wouldn't consider hurting anyone and are guided by their own conscience or spirit.

[Bill McBlueState]

14. that makes sense

If you define spiritual as

*tries not to hurt people
*guided by an internal sense of right and wrong

that does describe a lot of atheists better than a lot of traditional religious believers.

[LaurenG]

17. Exactly

It causes me to make a "quantum leap" that most atheists are MORE spiritual than are many of those who claim to be religious.

[ozone_man]

38. More from the wiki entry

Spirituality and personal well-being

Due to its broad scope and individual nature, spirituality is perhaps better understood by highlighting a number of key concepts that arise for people when asked to describe what spirituality means to them. Research by Martsolf & Mickley (1998) highlighted the following areas as worthy of consideration:

* Meaning – significance of life; making sense of situations; deriving purpose.

* Values – beliefs, standards and ethics that are cherished.

* Transcendence – experience and appreciation of a dimension beyond self.

* Connecting – increased awareness of a connection with self, others, God/Spirit/Divine, and nature.

* Becoming – an unfolding of life that demands reflection and experience; includes a sense of who one is and how one knows.

Spirituality, according to most adherants, is an essential part of an individual's holistic health and well-being, by developing an awareness of a "transcendent dimension" to life.

I agree with you, spirituality is not a very descriptive term. When I go down through this list, I'm checking them all, except for the God/Spirit/Devine one. Rather I have an increased awareness of a connection with self, others, nature, especially nature. I'm an atheist. I think many atheists will fit this definition of spirituality. As long as it doesn't involve spirits. :eyes:

[Crazy Dave]

6. I believe....

in something like the Native Americans did. They saw spirituality in everything around them. They respected and worshiped everything around them. They didn't share the same passion as the white man with disrespect towards animals and the environment. They only killed for food and they didn't treat the land as a garbage dump.

Crazy?

[LaurenG]

26. Crazy? I think not. nt

[madmom]

34. Absolutely not..I've believed this way for decades!

[CatholicEdHead]

8. They are not mutually exclusive

You can be a good spiritual person without religous dogmas.

[texastoast]

10. That's a long conversation

I think spirituality is the belief that we are all part of something larger than ourselves and that we owe a moral duty to consider that larger body. Atheists might understandably balk at being called "spiritual," but I think that it is just the sematics of it all.

Religion is but a perceived structure, oftentimes impeding any kind of growth.

[LaurenG]

12. I agree with your last sentence except

that it can also force growth because one can't swallow the milquetoast dogmas of many churches.

[texastoast]

18. Absolutely

There comes a time for lots of people when their brains kick in. Not freepers, of course. ;-)

[Inland]

29. "Structure" is a word I thought of, too, although

not merely perceived. I think spirituality can be an orientation while religion develops premises, builds intellectual constructs on them, uses ritual to reaffirm them, etc. I'm not sure that the latter requires the former or not, and I don't think that it's negative.

[stillcool]

16. As they say at AA meetings...

Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell....and spirituality is for people who have already been. Religion to me, is someone else's belief that I've memorized, spirituality is singular and the core of who I am...it can not be different than what it is.

[LaurenG]

23. So do you think atheists can be spiritual too?

I just have this overwhelming feeling that they fit into your definition almost perfectly.

[stillcool]

27. I think it is more about what spirituality implies...

and that some atheists are so abhorrent of religion, that the 'spiritual' label is not far enough away from the tentacles of definitions of 'religiousity' for comfort. Religion to someone who has been seriously burned by it, is something to recoil from...like a hot stove.

[LaurenG]

30. I know well of what you speak, and have decided that

the truth MUST include everyone. So I am searching until Everyone is included.

[stillcool]

33. But therein lies the rub...

there are so many non-conformists that refuse to be put in the box you want to build for them....just because...

[LaurenG]

35. No no I don't want them in a box

I want the truth for me. They can stay out and play wherever they want...

[stillcool]

36. Oh...wow....that's the one ...

where the head and the heart have to connect! I think that part of us humans is in flux continuously...but being non-religous allows me that flux...I can change my mind or my heart about the way I think of feel at any time...I am not constrained by someone else's morality or yardstick. However the equation changes considerably when outside influence outweighs my integrity...selling your soul is always an option, and one I have done without realizing, and at that point the head and the heart are not even in the same sphere.

[Mend]

19. the spirituality that came to my mind was the kind that psychic

mediums speak of, the preservation of our unique personalities after we pass over. Those that believe this and those that study near-death experiences all say that there is no religious set-up on the other side. There are master guides and such, but no angels, no churches, and nobody gets 57 virgins or lots of wives.

[LaurenG]

22. Yes that is my thinking here too. No religion. nt

[lvx35]

37. But if you miss the spiritual side of religion your missing a lot.

I mean, take Christianity...this whole idea of the coming of the prophecized Lion of Judah, the king of kings, etc. etc. Then the person comes, and is a penniless passivist. The lion is the lamb. That to me conveys a lot of spiritual truth. Or communion. The body of christ, the blood of christ. The symbolism being the body of Christ is the church itself. Or take hinduism. If you can say hinduism spiritual, a quick read of the Gita is in order:

http://psp.manybooks.net/books/anonetext00bgita10/11

[blossomstar]

28. No, I don't think it has one thing to do with religion!

My resolution for the new year is to become more spiritual ... to feed or fill my spirit with the writings and teachings of wise people and to meditate daily. I already have a better since of peace and contentment just from the quiet meditation time in the mornings... my prayer starts by asking for "peace on earth". God is to each of us what we need Him to be. It's a private, personal relationship. The radical religious really are an obnoxious bunch... their way or hell fire... not my idea of God at all! At least, not the God that is in my heart...It's my belief that the simplicity of it all slays them... God is everywhere in everything! Just believe, that's it, done! The rest is up to us as individuals as to how we want to proceed with the relationship. So simple.

[Jackpine Radical]

31. Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell.

Spirituality s for people who have been there.

[Maat]

39. I think everyone here is talking about religion in the ..

conventional sense.

To me, my religion and my spirituality are mostly the same thing. Maybe my spirituality and my belief system are a bit of a broader thing.

Just because one has a faith doesn't mean that one believes in a harsh external deity.

I believe that all are the One, and the One is both within and without.

[TreasonousBastard]

41. That's on the right track...

in the broadest sense, spirituality is looking outside of ourselves for something--
those old "meaning of life" questions. The answers we find may or may not involve various gods.

Organized religion can be a crutch for some, can get in the way for others, and can be of great help to still others. In the best case, one's religion (or lack of it)and spirituality are a perfect fit.

One thing that attracted me to Quakers is the lack of doctrine or dogma. We do have a rich theology, but it doesn't much involve defining God or what we might think God's will to be. Like UUs, Ethical Culturists, and others, we are usually quite welcoming to atheists and agnostics who are chosing our path to sprituality. We are free to define our own relationship with what we feel God to be.

[Maat]

43. Oh, I love Quaker philosophy!

And I can always count on my Quaker friends to show up at the peace vigils we plan.

[liberal43110]

40. Maybe it goes back to the traits of people who admit to being atheists

An earlier poster and you both commented on some traits shared people who would openly identify as being atheists. Maybe there is something to that. Perhaps many/most self-proclaimed atheists tend to be questioning/searching/thinking types who have thought a lot about religion(s) and morality. And they have come to the decision that ethical human behavior is independent of a god or gods: enlightened and benevolent individuals are capable of behaving ethically and morally without believing in god. Moreover, at the other end of the introspection spectrum, many self-proclaimed religious people have never questioned their faith or what right and wrong are. Instead, they evaluate the goodness of their acts on whether god would approve. If they believe they have acted immorally, they ask for god's forgiveness--rather than examine their entire believe system.

I realize I am painting with a broad brush here, but I think there could be some tendencies that make self-described atheists seem to be so "spiritual"/ethical to you.

[TreasonousBastard]

42. I wouldn't depend entirely on...

the Wiki entries for this.

Atheists most certainly can be spritual, although they are under no obligation to be-- Buddhists, Ethical Culturists, Spiritualists in past movements, even Existentialists...

Quakers and UUs have no doctrines demanding belief in God and are full of very spiritual atheists.

A belief in a God is not required for a path to enlightenment.