LAT: Why God chose the Jews

[question everything]

From the Los Angeles Times

Why God chose the Jews

By Andrew Klavan
Crime novelist ANDREW KLAVAN can be reached at AndrewKlavan.com.

January 14, 2006

THERE IS ONE good thing about anti-Semitism: It lets you know who the bad guys are. Right, left, black, white, freak or straight, the minute someone starts rattling on about the evil Jews, you know your train just pulled into Slimeball Station.

All bigotry is wrong, of course, but there's something about this particular form of prejudice that is weirdly reliable as a sign of deeper wickedness. Perhaps it's because the Jews contributed so much to humanity's moral code that to hate them as a race is to despise the restraints of morality itself. Whatever the reason, true, virulent anti-Semitism is such a good indicator of the presence of evil that I'm tempted to believe that when God made the Jews his chosen people, this is what he chose them for: to be a sort of Villainy Early Detection System for everyone else.

(snip)

Now, I understand the situation in the Middle East is morally and politically complex, as is the situation in South America. I know that honorable people can hold conflicting opinions about the issues in these places. But when the entrenched misery of an area nearly as large as the United States is consistently blamed on 5 million people in a country the size of a shoebox, or when the ills of the world are loaded onto less than 1% of its population, I begin to become suspicious.

(snip)

So here's a plan. The next time you express an opinion on what's wrong with the world, take a look around to see who's nodding in agreement. If it's some clown who thinks the Jewish state should be pushed into the sea, or that the Jews killed Christ or are conspiring to subvert the world economy or the government or the media, I beg you to consider that you might be wrong. There is no shame in changing your opinion. Falling into step with wicked fools — that's shameful, and it's dangerous too. God gave you an early detection system. Use it.


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-klavan14jan14,1,925872.story?coll=la-headlines-california&track=mostemailedlink

[DELUSIONAL]

1. I don't believe in god

therefore god didn't choose any race --

We are all members of the human race.

And us white folk are just a mutation -- which will hopefully disappear through intermarriage.

[mikelewis]

9. I didn't either...

While my views differ on God, the rest of your post is spot on. Though, on retrospect, I hope the differences don't disappear, just the bigotry associated with it.

[FreedomAngel82]

21. That stopped a long time ago

The Jews are no longer the "chosen" race as many like to believe. Even in the NT it states that we're all equal whether we're Jew or Gentile. Nobody is more important than another one.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DELUSIONAL]

63. If YOU keep up scientific research then you would know what

I am referring to.

Thank god for the ignore button.

[Tom Joad]

2. If you don't believe that God chose anybody? Or She chose everyone?

Just asking.

[question everything]

You need to read the story. Really. It is not about literally "choosing"

anybody. Rather, that signs of anti-semitism indicate that great evil will be right behind. Like the canary in the coal mine (apparently not at Sago, though)

[Violet_Crumble]

8. I read it. What it's about...

Is that the moron who wrote this is more than likely a conservative type who sees any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism. He also makes the huge mistake of accusing Chavez of anti-Semitism, even though Jewish groups in Venezuela have said otherwise.

Venezuela's Jews Defend Leftist President in Flap Over Remarks

He also conveniently ignores the fact that many conservative anti-Semites are pro-Israel...

While it's not in dispute that anti-Semitism exists, the guy who wrote this claims that if we are to find an anti-Semite in agreement when we have an opinion on Israel, we should change our opinion. That's crap. If an anti-Semite were to nod in agreement with me when I criticise the policy Israel has of demolishing the homes of Palestinians, that's not a signal to change my opinion and decide home-demolishions are now A-OK - it's a signal to me that the person nodding in agreement is agreeing for totally different reasons...

Violet...

[fishwax]

39. jeez, way to bring logic into the discussion

While it's not in dispute that anti-Semitism exists, the guy who wrote this claims that if we are to find an anti-Semite in agreement when we have an opinion on Israel, we should change our opinion. That's crap. If an anti-Semite were to nod in agreement with me when I criticise the policy Israel has of demolishing the homes of Palestinians, that's not a signal to change my opinion and decide home-demolishions are now A-OK - it's a signal to me that the person nodding in agreement is agreeing for totally different reasons...

You mean different people might hold similar views for entirely different reasons? Shocking!

[leeroysphitz]

43. many conservative anti-Semites

You mean like Pat Buchanan??? Wow, what a shock.

[wuushew]

3. Is this Iran or Chavez bashing?

Much of the latter has been spoken to quite well in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2040871.

[Colorado Blue]

29. No. It isn't. He's speaking about a much broader and older

phenomenon.

Please see my post #27.

But, since you mention it, I did some digging on the situation of Venezuela's Jewish community. Their population is diminishing. One report had them at 22,000, another a couple of years later, at 15,000. They appear to be voting with their feet, regardless of what they might say. Much of that appears to be eroding economic conditions. However, there are other reasons as well. The usual conspiracy theories have surfaced there and a Jewish school was the subject of an invasive search which some likened to a pogrom.

And the comments by Ahmadinejab are no laughing matter.

[Zhade]

107. I assume you have links from this digging?

I mean, those are some interesting claims you make.

[oblivious]

42. Article summary:

1. All bigotry is wrong, but bigotry against Jews is more wrong.
2. Iran's president is an evil madman.
3. Hugo Chavez is a jerk and a friend of tyranny.
4. Harry Belafonte is an ass (for criticising Bush and supporting Chavez).
5. Final solutions are no solutions.
6. If you ever find yourself in agreement on any issue with an anti-semitic bigot, you are on the wrong side of the issue.

[RagingInMiami]

47. Thank you for narrowing it down for those of us who couldn't

get beyond the arrogance of the first few sentences.

[CarbonDate]

103. Hell, I couldn't get past the arrogance of the title.

Of course a religious group would think their god chose them. Why would they think their god had chosen anybody else?

[Zhade]

108. 1. No bigotry is worse than any other. It's ALL equally bad.

2. Cartoonish supervillainy? Please. The guy's a lot of things, but literally insane is not one of them, as far as I can ascertain (of course, if you have access to his psychiatric records, feel free to correct me).

3. A lie.

4. Belafonte knows what's what. This 'journalist' (*coughHACKcough*) is the ass.

5. True.

6. Demonstrably false (see Violet's excellent explanation as to why above). Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[LiberalArkie]

4. He is wrong.

The code of Hammurabi is acknowledged as the FIRST written law in the world.

[question everything]

7. Does the code of Hammurabi call for taking care of widows and orphans?

For not sending to war a newly wed? or a farmer who'd just planted his first tree, built his first house?

Or about tithing to the poor and the needy?

I will be the first to acknowledge that religions caused a lot of wars and persecutions and death and destruction in our world history. But I also try to remember that for many - caring about the poor and the hungry comes not from human nature but from directives of a religion.

[foo_bar]

10. as it turns out...

That the strong might not injure the weak, in order to protect the widows and orphans, I have in Babylon the city where Anu and Bel raise high their head, in E-Sagil, the Temple, whose foundations stand firm as heaven and earth, in order to declare justice in the land, to settle all disputes, and heal all injuries, set up these my precious words, written upon my memorial stone, before the image of me, as king of righteousness.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM

[papau]

20. not injure is a beginning on taking care of- so our king gets a point. n/t

n/t

[Neil Lisst]

51. And much of "Old Testament" was stolen from Mesopotamia

That is where Abram, Abraham, or Ibrihim originated. Ur of the Chaldees means Ur of the plains, and it was located somewhere southwest of modern Baghdad.

The biblical tale has the Garden of Eden where the Tigris and Euphrates meet. The truth is that many of the stories of the Bible were borrowed from Mesopotamia literature and religions.

The story of Noah came from the Epic of Gilgamesh, circa 2700 BCE. Abraham appeared about 2100 BCE, allegedly.

In short, the guy's premise is a load of marlarkey. When anyone tries to base their position on anything on God's will, I immediately stop listening, except to look for signs of mental illness or prejudice.

[Coastie for Truth]

60. If you want to get analytical

Christianity is based on Judaism, and Islam is based on a little bit of Christianity and a lot more Judaism (dietary and mourning practices are almost identical).

[Neil Lisst]

68. The difference is that both Islam and Christianity acknowledge that.

Judaism does not acknowledge its Mesopotamia/Epic of Gilgamesh roots, and Christianity and Islam, of course, do not either. But that's irrelevant to this discussion, since it's Judaism under discussion, not its spinoff religions - Christianity and Islam. They're all myth-based religions based upon legends originating long before anyone ever invented Abraham as the fictional father of the tribe.

All religions are superstitions fed to the frightened. The author mentioned in the OP is guilty of the same nonsense advanced by Jerry Falwell, Osama bin Laden, and the Pope.

[Colorado Blue]

81. So now we "stole" the Torah?

Give me a break please.

Nobody has ever disputed the fact that Abraham was born in the area of Baghdad.

[Neil Lisst]

93. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh, a source for the Torah.

Call it the Torah, call it the The Law and the Prophets, call it the Old Testament. There's no evidence that Abraham was a real person, or that he was anything more than a fictional character from Mesopotamia.

The Hebrew Bible was written from about 700 BCE to 400 BCE, and borrowed heavily from the Mesopotamia legends, myths, and writings.

If you wish to believe the tales of the Bible are true, that's your choice, but it's a belief based upon faith, not logic or history.

[Colorado Blue]

99. None of what you say dismisses the fact that your comments

appear to discredit an ancient and legitimate religion, culture and people. To say we "stole" anything is appalling.

Like any other culture, ours of course draws upon others, both older and contemporary, just as Christianity draws upon Judaic, Greek and Egyptian imagery and ideas. That doesn't delegitimize Christianity or mean that the Christians STOLE those ideas. They built upon them and created something new.

By the Hebrew calendar, this is Tevet 16, 5766. We've earned every one of those years and I think it's wrong for you to imply otherwise. It puts an extremely pejorative onus on Judaism and on Jews.

An Israeli friend of mine has some words on this topic:

Of course Abraham was well known by other cultures. His name change is the beginning of the Hebrew culture. He also is the father of Ishmael and the grandfather of many non-Jewish cultures. That doesn't detract a bit from the Judaic tradition. The Jewish people are descended from Israel, the son of Yitzhak and Rivka. Israel is the father of the 12 tribes. Joseph had two sons by an Egyptian wife, Ephraim and Menasha. They are also descendants of Jacob (Israel) and received Jacobs blessings and became one with the Hebrew people.

Lets not forget that the oral Torah was well preserved, and that the Torah itself is embodied in the 10 laws that Moses received on Sinai.

The 10 Commandments are the basis of modern law. That is the unique contribution of the Jews to the world. The Hebrew people were brought out of Egypt. The Hebrew people were tested and it is from that point on that the Jewish religion was formed. That pre-dates 1000 BCE

references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

"The patriarchal period begins with Abraham. The Bible places the events surrounding Abraham (originally Abram) circa 1800 BCE, give or take 100 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah"

Also Moses was born Circa 1400 BCE.
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm

"As with the stories of the patriarchs, modern scholars question the historical accuracy of this information; however, scholars also claimed that the Torah could not have been written at that time because alphabetic writing did not exist … and then archaeologists dug up 4000 year old samples of alphabetic writing. "

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm

It's not a matter of "belief". It is a matter of respect.

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. I disagree the 10 commandments are "the basis of modern law"

Some of them are specific to monotheistic religions - eg "no gods before me" - which has nothing to do with modern law. Neither does "honour your father and mother". Neither is "do not covet ...". The principles of "do not steal, do not murder, do not bear false witness" are also found in cultures that did not spring in nay way from Judaism. There are fundamental tenets of modern law that the 10 commandments don't address at all - such as the wrongness of slavery. There's nothing unique about the Jewish contribution to modern law. Many cultures have contributed.

And being realistic, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Hebrew people were "brought out of Egypt". All archeology shows them as a pastoral people who came into conflict with the city dwellers in their area, and founded a state after winning the conflict.

[Zhade]

110. "the oral Torah was well preserved"

Indeed.

Which doesn't prove the oral history was true, accurate, or even happened.

Neil has not implied that the Jewish people haven't earned their years. You put those words in his mouth, but it's not at all what he said.

Perhaps 'stole' is too harsh a word, perhaps not. Evidence shows, however, that Judaism, and thus Christianity and Islam, borrowed quite freely from other belief systems. This may be appalling, but it remains true.

[Zhade]

109. Well, no one except every person who doesn't believe the bible is true.

NT!

[liberalpragmatist]

5. Um...

Of course antisemitism is wrong and much of what eminates from the Arab/Muslim world towards Jews is morally reprehensible.

Maybe though because I'm sort of a humanist, I don't think antisemitism is inherently worse than other racial and ethnic hatreds.

I'm not rabidly pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian and my views tend to piss off people on both sides; but what exactly does the writer mean by this section:

So here's a plan. The next time you express an opinion on what's wrong with the world, take a look around to see who's nodding in agreement. If it's some clown who thinks the Jewish state should be pushed into the sea, or that the Jews killed Christ or are conspiring to subvert the world economy or the government or the media, I beg you to consider that you might be wrong. There is no shame in changing your opinion. Falling into step with wicked fools — that's shameful, and it's dangerous too. God gave you an early detection system. Use it.

Sounds to me like a call for feeling guilt by association, which is just as wrong-headed as anything else. If one criticizes the Israeli occupation and a rabid Arab anti-Semite nods in agreement, that doesn't invalidate the first view. Likewise, if one defends Israel's right to defend itself and a hard-core, ethnic-cleansing-supporting Revisionist Zionist agrees, that ALSO doesn't invalidate the point of agreement.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Yeah, that bit jumped out at me too...

It's definately a call for guilt by association...

I do agree with you and I don't think anti-Semitism is worse than other racial and ethnic hatreds. I feel the same sense of queasiness when I encounter folk who are bigoted against Arabs or Asians as I do when they are bigoted against Jews. I don't accept the views of folk who believe there's a hierarchy that makes one form of bigotry worse than others, or in any way tries to make other forms of bigotry more acceptable. All bigotry is wrong as far as I'm concerned...

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

17. Sounds more like common sense to me.

[Zhade]

111. So if someone agreed with you that the b*s* administration is evil...

...and you later found out that person was biased against Jews, you'd have to change your opinion to one of approval of the administration?

How is that common sense? You define yourself based on not wanting to accidentally agree with someone distasteful? Real shaky sense of self you've got there, if that's the case.

[Coastie for Truth]

23. Guilt by association with Frank Weltner or David Duke - that's

either poor judgement, lack of knowedge, or guilt.

[Bucky]

97. After reading the Bible, I think God chose to pick on the Jews.

Floods, slavery in Egypt and Mesopotamia, years wandering the desert, inconsistant moral advice, occupation by the Romans... I thank God I'm not chosen. It sounds like a raw deal.

[FlemingsGhost]

6. Mr. Klavan should stick to writing crime novels. (n/t)

Flem.

[applegrove]

11. Many religions have exceptionality in a few lines. Some more than others.

Yes anti-semitism is used very well in Iran these days. Used by wrong religious leaders to break the golden rule and stir up support.

I think often these days of the poverty created when Christianity became dominant and "usury" was outlawed. And what a horrid mess the dark ages were for that reason.

All religions make mistakes. All of them. And sometimes they learn. And sometimes they are used by power-crazy. Some - at times - more than others. I'm not sure that stoning is ever such a great idea. The trick is to hold each practicer of religion - accountable. In the same way that all adults are accountable for their actions - not who they are inside.

[FlemingsGhost]

16. Anti-semitism is used very well in the U.S., too.

Well, the charge of anti-semitism seems to be an effective tool, anyway.

[Colorado Blue]

28. Respectfully, that's a dreadful thing to say. This is a very

real problem and I'm surprised that a liberal would belittle it like this.

I grew up with it, it's worse for my nieces. That's a bad sign.

[FlemingsGhost]

30. Please ... I see countless examples of Israel = jew.

Criticism of Israel is volleyed back (or not-so-cleverly insinuated) as anti-semitism.

It is asserted constantly on these boards.

[Colorado Blue]

32. I hope you won't mind if I refer you to another post, #31.

My fingers are getting sore:)

I have tried to explain why people DO assert that antiIsrael comments often ARE antisemitic.

It is one thing to complain about government policies, etc, as we would of our own government. But it's another thing to try and delegitimize the state itself, or wish harm upon her people, or advocate policies, seeking to help the Palestinians, that would create a whole new set of victims.

Also, the intense focus on Israel, the fact that, with all the problems on this planet - millions dying in Africa, environmental disasters looming, poverty, mistreatment of women, minorities and gays - so much critical and often vicious attention devolves upon Israel - it does suggest the old bias in a new form.

[FlemingsGhost]

33. So, what was so "dreadful" about what I wrote?

I simply pointed out that the charge of anti-semitism is also used as a tool of political censorship or character assassination. Yes, the problem is very real, but as others have asserted, I do not believe anti-semitism is any more widespread than any other racial/gender/cultural bigotry.

I have no numbers to back my opinion, so take it for what its worth. Anti-semitism just seems to get more press, greater number of reactions from high-profile individuals and a loud, organized chorus demanding apologies.

[Colorado Blue]

37. Well - I don't think people are consciously or deliberately

using the charge of antisemitism as a tool.

That's what made me uncomfortable.

When people feel they're the objects of bigotry - they will speak up. It isn't because they want to harm others, but merely to point out they themselves feel they're being harmed.

Is antisemitism more widespread than other forms of bigotry, on a global scale? Probably not - look at tribal rivalries in Africa for example. But in the Middle East and in Europe, I'd say it is very serious, growing again in Europe; and in America, it's always been around but USUALLY in low-key or even coded form.

But it has proven to have lasted 2,000 years and it is extremely dangerous. Because, in both the Christian and Islamic world, there are specifically religious and therefore irrational aspects to the bigotry, it is part of the cultural ethos. Most people aren't even aware of it, unless they're the objects. That makes it unusual. Everybody is aware, for example, when somebody makes a crack about a Black person. But so much antisemitism takes the form of innuendo or conspiracy theories - people don't realize how upsetting this is. For example, when Mossad is blamed every time a suicide bombing takes place, or if Jews are accused of Running the Government or Causing The War In Iraq - it is going to upset people and they are going to squawk.

Maybe you're right about the press. Part of this is reflective of the fact that an undue amount of attention is paid to Israel. People are sensitive about that and feel unjustly singled out. Many have friends and family in Israel, or have lost friends and family in the warfare there; and are threatened by verbal attacks - especially those which claim that Israel is evil or advocate that Israel should become less - Jewish.

And, people are afraid. Previously, nobody listened when Jews got beat up or killed and this went on for 2,000 years. In the 1930's, nobody listened and millions died. Now, people complain, lest the murmurs become more serious.

For example, the complaints about Chavez struck many on DU as gratuitous criticism of a leftwing politician, who didn't deserve it. But those familiar with the terminology he used were alarmed, especially in view of the vulnerability of the Jewish community worldwide. We just don't want a repeat of the bad old days. Too many of us have lost relatives, or have parents and grandparents who were forced to flee, who left everything behind just to save their lives.

[FlemingsGhost]

44. I respectfully submit that you are not paying close enough attention

Having grown up as a part of a jewish community, I saw many folks insinuate or outright charge antisemitism at rather convenient moments, when in fact the offending criticism or percieved slight was addressing a personal/character issue, not a religious/cultural one.

It happens. Trust me.

============================
Case in point:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2042293&mesg_id=2042293

(Now, do you really think Bolton gives a rip about whether Israel is on a map or not? His rhetoric is meant to outrage jews, embarass and discredit Annan and the UN, and cast himself as a friend to the jewish community. Bullshit! The man is using the not-so subtle insinuation of antisemitism to further his political and personal agenda.)

[Colorado Blue]

45. Well, I don't know WHAT Bolton thinks. But I think that not

showing Israel on a map is extremely wrong, though you may well be correct in assuming that Bolton is using the issue to promote himself.

But think about that map for a moment, what it implies. This is especially painful given the background of Israel, the historical revisionism underway throughout the Middle East, attempts to say the Holocaust didn't happen, etc. And, the UN has been terribly unfair to Israel. No doubt, the Palestinian people have been damaged, though the Israelis have been as well, by war and terror and disputes over borders, etc. But Israel has received more sanctions than the Sudan, where 2,000,000 people have died in recent years, to give only one example.

The revisionism in the M.E. includes attempts to discredit Jewish history in the Middle East, even the location of the Temple in Jerusalem. Jews are referred to as dogs and monkeys, there are attempts to flip history and redefine bigotry against Jews as bigotry against Arabs; and there are constant threats to annihilate all the Jews and wipe Israel off the map.

So when a UN conference shows a map without Israel, it's pretty bad.

As for cases when your friends or acquaintances may have acted offended if somebody made a comment about them, if they reacted by saying, "Whoa, what an antisemite," I'd bet that somebody said something that was a traditional slur. For example, saying a Jew is cheap is a traditional slur, like saying Black people don't like to work.

Of course I have no way of knowing. But it's a thought.

As a rule though, people usually assume that discrimination lies in the eyes of the person who feels he or she is being discriminated against. Some people, for example, might not mind the "n" word, others use it freely. I would assume that it isn't proper.

Does this make sense?

[FlemingsGhost]

48. Sure, your points are valid enough.

I happen to think there is a hypersensitivity regarding Jews, the general perception of anti-semitism and the manner in which we have been conditioned to respond to the issue.

Alas, certain "enterprising" opportunists are not beyond using the issue for their own devices. Why is it so difficult to even acknowledge the possibility?

[Colorado Blue]

50. No doubt, enterprising opportunists would use other people's

pain and fears for their own, or their party's, purposes. I'm afraid that's actually happening, and not just to Jews and not just in America. Powerful people, demagogues, politicians, let's face it, they're notorious for exploiting people's fears and their sore spots. It is especially easy to do, probably, when people aren't well educated or if they're desperate.

However, I don't think that's the case when people here, fellow DU'ers, speak up. We're "family", after all, or we wouldn't be here. When we speak up, we are trying to say, something's wrong, please listen.

As far as hypersensitivity - is that a bad thing? Not just to Jewish concerns, but to concerns all minorities, women, gays, must feel. I'm especially concerned about a new set of victims: Arab-Americans and Muslims. My husband's boss is Muslim and so are many of my friends. Believe me, since 9/11, they've been made aware that they are "different".

And, where Jews are concerned, is sensitivity so wrong? Considering what's happened just in the last couple of centuries? Germany isn't so different from the US, you know, and it wasn't that long ago, that perfectly ordinary, good people, turned into monsters.

My father-in-law is German, flew for the Luftwaffe in WWII. It's hard to imagine he was part of an unthinkable nightmare. But he was.

[Zhade]

112. Those alarmed by his terminology...

...weren't paying attention. It's been shown, repeatedly, that he did NOT make anti-semitic remarks.

That some knee-jerk right to "Chavez hates Jews!!111!!!" is predictable, and even a bit understandable, but it's not excusable to charge the guy with something he didn't do.

And sadly, some people DO use the charge of anti-semitism to shut down discussion of, say, Israeli government policy - which, since we're very much involved in that part of the world, is going to happen.

[applegrove]

66. I'll agree that neocons have used the Charge of anti-semitism to try

and get out from being identified with a specific Utopian ideology. Doesn't work for them anymore.

[Colorado Blue]

82. Can you explain? I'm confused. Thanks.

[applegrove]

83. Oh for years.. including last winter ... the neocons erupt into a lather

of "don't call us Jewish" when their name 'neocon' got to popular. Apparently they want to be the "Utopia that has no name".

Have you never ventured to the mixed sites where freepers will label you with what you hate most - in order to get you to shut up? Used car dealers do that too.

Anyone who criticized Condi last year was "racist".

Doesn't work anymore.

Thanks god.

[Colorado Blue]

85. Yeah but - we shouldn't condemn people, Neocons or other-

wise - because they are Jewish. That is especially so because the most powerful Neocons and many who relate to them throughout the US, aren't Jewish.

Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that has nothing to do with Judaism, either with the religion or with the Jewish people.

So they're RIGHT.

[CJCRANE]

104. Yep, RWers like to play both sides of the PC game.

They like to ignore Political Correctness unless they can use it to stir up trouble between different minorities or accuse their opponents of being sexist, racist etc.

[oblivious]

55. "Iran's religious leaders are using anti-semitism to stir up support" Huh?

I think you have confused criticism of Jews with criticism of Israel. Iran is respectful of Jewish culture and religion. I think you would have a very hard time digging up any evidence that Iran's religious leaders use anti-semitism to "stir up support".

[applegrove]

65. Well the Iranian PM denied the Holocaust in the run up to the Iraqi

elections. Perhaps you didn't notice. He has been "baiting" at an international level for two months.

[question everything]

78. Funny thing about the Iranian premier

First he denies the Holocaust. Next, he wants to move Israel to Europe because... this is where Jews were persecuted for generations.

Yes, I know, one should not look for logic and consistency where tyrants rule.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

13. Religions aren't the problem....it's the fanatics who try to push them....

...on other people. IMHO, it's also the fanatics who defend their religious beliefs no matter what they're using those beliefs to do.

God gave me an early detection system, too....and every time I see one of these posts, the alarm goes off.

[ret5hd]

14. is anti-zionism the same as anti-semitism?

[Coastie for Truth]

19. Can be -

depends on the relative intellectual ability of the speaker and the listener, and their respective mens rea

But, then again, I am an old fart and play by the rules of the

[tatertop]

25. Of course not

[Colorado Blue]

31. Often, it is. Given that "Zionism" is essentially

support for the Jewish homeland in Israel, and also religiously refers to Zion - Jerusalem - as the spiritual center of Judaism and the focus of Jewish prayer and hope for millenia, and given that of the world's 13 million Jewish people, more than 5 million live in Israel, it's sort of a de facto antisemitism.

A lot of misunderstanding evolves from the misuse of the term Zionism. There are many TYPES of Zionism, religious, labor, so forth - but the kind that's associated with "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" - the grandmother of all conspiracy theory books and a notorious source of bigotry - is a misuse of the word. The idea that Jews Dominate The World, translated as Zionist World Domination Conspiracies, etc, are obnoxious forms of antisemitism in and of themselves.

Also, equating Zionism - the wish for a homeland - with apartheid, racism, colonialism, etc, is also bigoted, even if not intentionally.

This is NOT the same thing as disapproving of various policies of the Israeli government or of extremists within her population. That is normal political discourse, like criticizing the US, and frequently is well deserved. But wishing Israel gone? Or blaming all the ills of the world on Israel? Or saying that Israel is single-handedly responsible for all the misery of the Middle East? That's something else again.

[Sinewave58]

34. Also, some clarity needed

on the terms -semitism, -semitic, -semite, etc. Generally, such were refer to any peoples of the Middle East and some portions of north Africa. Somewhere along the line, I have no idea when or where, the terms became exclusive as references to Jews. But Arabs are "semitic" if you will given their ancestry to Shem. Hebrew and Arabic are semitic languages.

Not a point of any significance, but I had nothing else to add!!!

[Colorado Blue]

36. Of course you're right - Arabs and Jews are very close

relatives. Many Jewish people never left the Middle East. I think those are very important points.

I think it was in Europe, 19th century?, that somebody coined the phrase "antisemitism" to refer to anti-Jewishness. It does lead to confusion.

Sadly we now see a lot of prejudice against Arabs and also against Muslims. I don't know if you followed the stories about the riots in France? Apparently even in very democratic France, people feel marginalized - 2nd and 3rd generation French citizens.

[Sinewave58]

40. I certainly followed the rioting in France.

It's no wonder that it occurred, not that I predicted it, but the lack of assimilation from generation to generation would make any person or group feel, and actually be, marginalized. I'm not excusing it nor making excuses for it, but when there's a foot pressed on your throat (figuratively), lashing out at the foot's owner is not un-natural.

I believe you're right on the coining of the phrase - thank you.

[newyawker99]

54. Hi Sinewave58!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Sinewave58]

57. Hi newyawker99, & thank you n/t

[meti57b]

101. "anti-semitism" is a term made up by ......

Wilhelm Marr, in the late 1870s, in Germany, to specifically refer to the Jews.

If the Arabs would like to have it to refer to themselves, as far as I'm concerned, ..... they can have it. I'll settle for "Jew-hating" which is far more descriptive than anti-semitism.

[rucky]

53. You contradict yourself.

First you talk about the broad definitions of Zionism. You give an example of how the term is misused to spread hatred. OK, I'm with you so far...

Then you bring in your own (vague and weak) definition of Zionism as "the wish for a homeland".

Let's be honest, here. When we talk about Zionism, we are typically referring to the establishment of a Jewish state (Theodore Herchel's definition). The establishment of a government based on a single religion or ethnicity is a matter of legitimate (and honest) debate. Sorry, but there ARE elements of Zionism that are controversial. We should be able to discuss them without the inflammatory rhetoric from all sides.

the crux of the Zionist question to me is this: Is it right to establish a government based upon a single religion or ethnicity? Do we make exceptions with Israel, given their unique historical (and current) circumstances? How will a Jewish state balance security with equal rights for its non-Jewish residents? Jews, Christians & Muslims all claim the land of Israel as a key part of their religious identity, yet are unwilling to acknowledge one another's claims. Are we as Jews being fair about control of the land? Will there ever be enough trust to establish a government where they can all live as neighbors, and religion does not play a part in policymaking? Is that even anybody's vision but my own?

You don't have to answer those questions. They're there to ponder. I know I'm still wrestling with them.

[The Magistrate]

77. A Couple Of Points, Mr. Rucky

The theory of nationalism definitely posits a single ethnicity constituting the nation, and in instances where a nation-state has grown up more or less naturally, that has been the case, with only insignifigant minority polulations being present. There are several patterns of nation-state in the modern world, however, that are a poor fit with this. The most common is the nation that was once a colonial district; there, even where one ethnicity may be predominant, and the jurisdiction be named for it, there is likely to be a welter of ethnicities, and most often, bad feelings between them. Another is a nation populated by emigration to an essentially unpopulated, or perhaps more precisely, depopulated, place. The United States and Australia are chief examples, and in them, there can certainly be no question of one ethnicity, unless the new national identity of the mingled immigrants' descendants be taken as such. The old colonial nations of Europe, once single ethnicity states, have been effected by the consequences of declining empire, and hosted many immigrants from their former possessions. But the idea of a state with a single ethnicity is the root of nationalism, and was the predominant view at the time the Zionist enterprise was conceived, and established itself as a state. There is nothing either outre or inherently wrong or unjust about this view; in it, every people is supposed to have a state for itself, and indeed, it is considered impossible for a people, as a collective entity, to be fully healthy or develope normally without this organization.

[question everything]

79. Thank you, sir

Always a pleasure to read your well thought and expressed opinion.

Israel, indeed, is unique. Unless one thinks that Jews should have assimilated and forgot about their identity - and one is entitled to such an opinion - the reality is that for generations Jews were not allowed to own land, to send roots in one place, even if they want to. And, judging by the Nazi's Nuremberg race laws, even assimilation did not help in the "final solution."

We visited Zurich, Switzerland and had a guided tour. At some point we visited a very old section of the city, the Jewish ghetto. And the tour guide simple stated how the Jews were instrumental in contributing to the economy of medieval Zurich and once it grew and prospered, the Jews were evicted. And this has been the story of the Jewish people - more so in Europe than in other countries. Of course, as with the Arab nations of today, the Jews of yesteryear and the Israelis of today are a convenient way to distract the unhappiness of the masses about, say, lack of food, high taxes, forced conscription etc.

Still, what most of the commenters missed in the original post was that the "chosen Jews" was used as a sarcasm almost. That when hatred and bigotry rule, too often the Jews are the first target. Thus, like the canary in the mines, such hatred directed at Jews should alarm all of us to the evil that lurks behind these groups.

[Colorado Blue]

86. Thank you. nt

[Colorado Blue]

80. Are you referring to Herzl? nt

[Zhade]

114. "There are many TYPES of Zionism..."

It's interesting to note that the term 'jihad' suffers from this same misinterpretation/misrepresentation.


"Also, equating Zionism - the wish for a homeland - with apartheid, racism, colonialism, etc, is also bigoted, even if not intentionally."

Ah, but what do you do when that wish drives apartheid, racism, and colonialism, as is happening in the Palestinian territories?

[Neil Lisst]

73. There are religious zionists who are Christian, and some Jewish.

The common thread is a belief that the right of Jews to rule the land we called Israel, formerly known as Palestine, is Bible based.

There are many supporters of Israel who are not zionist and do not base their opinion on the Bible, but on other geopolitical factors. I'm in the latter camp. While the decision to create the modern state of Israel may have had a heavy Biblical component, that is not why I support the continued existence of Israel.

Pat Robertson is a zionist. His comments about Ariel Sharon recently were based upon PR's belief that God wants that land in the hands of Israel, and that unless and until the proper geography is held by Israel, the END TIMES cannot come to pass.

There are also Jewish zionists, as there are Jews who are not zionists.

Many if not most who use the term "zionists" are anti-semitic, but many are not anti-semitic at all. It really depends on context and the person's history. Much of the Muslim world uses the term "zionist" like the Old South used the N word. It teems with hatred and revulsion.

I try not to use the word at all, unless necessary for a discussion like this one, where someone is seeking edification on the topic.

[Zhade]

113. Not necessarily, no.

Anti-Zionism can be fueled by a hatred of Jews, or a hatred of the idea of taking Palestinian land that already had owners and tenants.

It could come from a variety of sources, so no, it's not automatically anti-semitic to be anti-zionist.

[Jim Sagle]

15. Fuckin' A.

[Clark2008]

18. Yeah... but.... Arabs are Semetic, too.

That's the fallacy in the language of this article.

There is wickedness in every society.

(I'm the ex-wife of a Palestinian and the current wife of a Jewish man. I have a VERY balanced view of this.)

[dweller]

22. as a left, white, straight freak

i believe mr. klavan enjoys his position as Head Conductor of the Slimeball Express.

just sayin'
dp

[hopeisaplace]

26. 6 billion people, 6 billion realities, it's my world and you're

just living in it...at least that's how it can feel
sometimes.



edit: woops, meant to respond to the original poster (sorry)

[Marr]

24. We're all equal. But some of us are a little more equal than others.

That seems to be his position.

I see no meaningful difference between racism against blacks and racism against Jews. I certainly don't find one less offensive than the other. Mr. Klavan apparently does, and that says alot about him.

That whole piece is an illustration of how right-wing reactionaries use the spectre of anti-Semitism to smear their political opponents. It's mostly between the lines, but present throughout.

[Colorado Blue]

27. I don't think that's the point of the article.

He's drawing, in the first place, on a lot of history. I don't think, by the way, it has anything to do with "G*d", but rather with a set of stereotypes that date back to the original blood libel: the Jews killed Christ. Other forms of scapegoating and negative characterizations evolved from there, and have become pernicious all over the world.

Secondly, Jewish Conspiracy Theories and other forms of antisemitism, coded or otherwise, have become distressingly common again and seem to be increasing in popularity, in a day and age when this kind of bigotry should have been buried forever.

Hate sites spewing antisemitic filth are common on the internet. I ran across one today called "jewwatch", which claims not to be a hate site. It just HAPPENS to be affiliated, according to knowledgeable people I consulted, with Nazis and skinheads. And of course one wonders why anybody needs to watching Jews in the first place.

But it's cloaked in an aura of respectability, claiming to present only factual information. Yet, if people familiar with certain issues really examine their articles, they contain bias, some of which is really poisonous. Sites like this aren't uncommon. They appear reasonable, even academic.

The problem is, people who DON'T know, think all the material they present is factual and get the wrong idea, and the cycle of bigotry continues.

All forms of bigotry are to be scorned. But certain types are manifestly more dangerous than others. When a group of people numbers only about 13 million worldwide - less than some major cities - it's easy to prey on them. And of course this has happened all too often in the past 2,000 years. People estimate the depradations of antisemitism have literally decimated the Jewish population, which, without persecution, would probably number some 125 million people today. Worldwide population is 2,000,000 LESS than in the 1930's, before 2/3 of European Jewry was exterminated.

So this isn't just a matter of words, or even of social and economic discrimination, which are distressing in and of themselves. This is a form of bigotry that has assumed radical and violent dimensions, with devastating consequences.

[THUNDER HANDS]

35. God chose the Jews because we have the best sense of humor

We'd need a good one, the past 2000 years haven't exactly been smooth sailing.

[Colorado Blue]

38. LOL! We do know how to laugh.

Praise be:)

[leeroysphitz]

41. God has chosen the Jews already???

But I thought we (WASPs) had a chance to make up points and catch up in the swim suit competition! This is TOTALLY NOT FAIR, what gives?

[bleedingheart]

71. LOL!

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Neil Lisst]

49. I love Jews, but a God-based argument is nonsense.

No such thing as a chosen people. God help us from people who advance such specious arguments.

That part fits nicely with the Falwell-Robertson view of world history, the predicate for the modern believers in the "end times."

Hostility towards Jews is no more or less appalling or telling than with any other group.

I can imagine many groups who might substitute themselves for Jews in his article and make the same arguments. Muslims, Christians, Blacks could all do so, in their own way and times.

If someone is anti-Semitic, I'm not going to be around them much, anyway, and their hostility towards Jews is likely part of a bundle of bad attitudes that include everything from gays to foreigners.

[leesa]

56. The problem is that when Israeli leaders say that all Palestinians

should be driven into the sea, or all Muslims should be destroyed, everybody's A-OK with it. THAT'S the problem. Many Israeli leaders since the inception of modern Israel have said such things and there hasn't been a peep about anti-semitism.

[Coastie for Truth]

59. Back up with a link

and Kahane and Baruch Goldstein, MD are both dead and neither were "leaders."

So please back it up with a link from somebody short of the lunatic fringe (y'know, not like the US's David Duke, Pat Robertson type)

[Jim Sagle]

62. No, everybody ISN'T OK with it. And few Israeli leaders have said it.

Therefore it's not a major problem, either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Teive the Milhiker

God if you chose us... can I ask you for a favor, choose somebody else for a little while?

[HamdenRice]

61. God actually chose the Chinese ...

but he secondarily chose the Jews to create a market for Chinese food in New York on Christmas.

[Colorado Blue]

88. LOL!

[The Magistrate]

89. Though You Jest, Mr. Rice

There could be something to the claim. The Chinese cointrived the most stable and long-lived political system the world has yet seen....

[Neil Lisst]

91. Neanderthals didn't change theirs for 100,000 years.

Neanderthals were the chosen people!! Until they became unchosen.

The very claim that one belongs to a chosen people is the height of ethnocentrism, irrespective of the group to which those people belong. China derives from Jungwa, or "center," meaning center of the world. Ethnocentrism has been the hallmark of practically every culture in the world. They all think they're IT, don't they?

[The Magistrate]

94. They Do Indeed, Mr. Lisst

Just as every person conceives of him or her self as the center of the universe....

[Neil Lisst]

95. Which is exactly the reason they're all wrong.

Daddy loves me most!!

is not a new concept

[dogday]

64. Is the writer trying to say that the jews are

singled out and picked on more than any other race of people? Is he saying with this sentence

"Right, left, black, white, freak or straight,
the minute someone starts rattling on about the
evil Jews, you know your train just pulled into Slimeball Station."


that you can talk about anything else but when you start talking about Jews, you have crossed the line?

[question everything]

84. He obviously draws heavily from the Holocaust

and the very famous expression by pastor Martin Niemoller, a former U-boat commander who had once briefly supported the Nazis but eventually spent four years in Dachau concentration camp:

"first they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Certainly when the Nirenberg laws passed, they were aimed specifically at reducing the Jews to second degree citizens.

Thus, he compares the Jews to the canary in the mines. If one group starts targeting the Jews, be certain that evil lurks, that others would be next.

When I hear freepers saying that "this is a Christian county" I often would like to ask which denomination. Similar to Niemoller - first it will be a protestant country, then a southern baptist country and, pretty soon, each of us will find ourselves expelled from one's idea of whose country it is.

[Zhade]

106. WTF is up with the "freak or straight" remark?

What, non-straights are freaks?

What is this nonsense?

[Cha]

67. God didn't choose anybody..

that's all in the figment of the human imagination.

[FlemingsGhost]

72. The idea that "God" has favorites is obscenely self-righteous ...

As long as a culture is created around the specious notion that they are superior than others, there is bound to be someone, somewhere with the idea that such individuals need to be knocked down a few pegs ...

Look at our own arrogance. Look at what it has wrought.

[Cha]

74. Exactly..

FlemingsGhost!

[Skip Intro]

69. Where is it written that the Jews are God's chosen people? n/t

[Colorado Blue]

87. This might help:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Chosen_People.asp

As the link explains, it isn't so much that G*d chose the Jews, as that the Jews chose G*d.

[bleedingheart]

70. How come I am always left out?????

picked last for dodge ball and kick ball too...and now to find that God doesn't have me on his chosen list....boy I am going to have a good cry :sarcasm:

[Disturbed]

75. "Appreciating an often-misunderstood idea."

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Chosen_People.asp

[bleedingheart]

76. I was just joking...but I did appreciate the thread link...

[Neil Lisst]

90. Don't all religions claim to be God's Chosen? Aren't they all wrong?

Yes, they are all wrong.

Talk about your sibling rivalries!

God loves me most!
Does not! He loves me most!
Does not!
Does too!
You were adopted!!

--- basically, all religious arguments boil down to this concept

[rucky]

92. Except for mine!

it'll never end.

[AntiFascist]

96. This is an interesting thread...

In another thread there is some question about why certain neoconservatives might be united with certain fascistic forces. Please don't interpret this post as being anti-Semitic in any way, I realize that there is a large body of Jews and Israelis, if not a majority, who want nothing to do with neoconservatives. Could the answer be that there is a strong bias against socialism and communism from neocons? I'm concerned about sites such as this one:

http://www.noahide.com/israel/index.htm

The sworn enemies of G-d are waging a total war against civilization. Through militant atheism, mass murder, international terrorism, and ruthless socialism, this evil force is working aggressively to undermine the fabric of our society and create an atmosphere of fear, helpless submission, and anarchy. One of their foremost goals is to totally annihilate the Jewish people, G-d forbid, and they are now gunning for America and Israel. This apocalyptic war, a fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies of the Messianic Era, is G-d's ultimate test for the world. What we do now in the face of this crisis determines G-d's final judgment of each of us and our respective nations.

[muriel_volestrangler]

98. HONK. Any time you see somone use a quote with "..." in the middle of it

as the only evidence given why another person is wrong, ask yourself what was in that "..." that was conveniently left out. As we find out in this case, when you see the "..." is "and the descendants of those who expelled Bolivar, and crucified him in his own way at Santa Maria" (from memory) you realise the whole argument is changed. That becomes even more true when you read the sentences around that cut'n'shunt quote from Chavez.

Klavan is either woefully underinformed (he shouldn't write articles for publication if he can't be bothered to check a source, rather than taking the word of either the right wing blogger who started all this crap about Chavez, or the Simon Wiesenthal Center who kept it going), or is dishonest. Still, that does allow us to know his crime novels probably aren't worth bothering with either.

[meti57b]

102. most people don't know what is meant by the use of the word "chosen".

It is that the Jews chose to keep G-ds commandments, all 613 of them and in return, G-d chose the Jews to keep his commandments.

As a good friend, LD put it, ... it is "chosen" in the sense that you were chosen to wash the dishes.

[Popol Vuh]

105. People like this destroy my faith in the human race

".....there's something about this particular form of prejudice (only prejudice against Jewish folks) that is weirdly reliable as a sign of deeper wickedness."

Whaaaaa? This guy doesn't see his own prejudice? I guess he thinks that Jewish people are somehow special as compared to everyone else. That somehow prejudice against Jewish folks is more wicked than prejudice against other folks.

*sigh*

[Odin2005]

115. It is my understanding that the "chosen people" thing....

...was a historical quirk that was a result of how Judaism evolved out the the polytheistic beleifs of the eastern Medditerranean. The Eastern Semetic pantheon had a high-god El with many lower deities, such as Baal, Asherah, etc. Each nation had thier own "protector god", and this is how Yaweh started out, the the protector god of the Hebrews, and only became the only god with the influence of Zoroasterianism after the Babylonian Exile.

[and-justice-for-all]

116. NO religion is the only answer...

By removing yourself from ALL religious practicallities you will become free..Religion is a social control system and nothing more, I stepped out and looked at it all by which I came to comclusion that being free of ANY religion will make you free.

What has religion on for the world? its obvious we got a bunch of Wars out of it, loads of bigotry, religious Organizations that want to go on minority killing sprees, Jesus freak cults that find it necassry to tell everyone what best for them because they think they know, Political intrusion and coruption an the list goes on and on ....WooHoo.

Dumping religion would be a sure benefit to everyone on the Planet. Instead of going to Church all the time, people would have a true function in society to make their communities better, the country stonger and viberant as well as make the world a better place for all by focusing on the issues that need the most attention. All of which would be done through Hard work, not praying...There is no social benefit to be gained from these religious organizations, if they was I dont think we would have homeless people, starving people or third world countries.

Instead, these xtiandom sects would rather use their resources to tell other people what to do..Like abortion and gay marriage for example. Is it really any of 'their' damn business what other people do with their lives? ABSOLUTLY NOT. They have NO right to pay lobbiest to manipulate politicians against something like gay-marrige, why do they care so much? I dont live by nor will I ever live by their rules. Their believe system is faulty and based on lies, why would anyone follow that garbage? Its all about control, it was from the begining....

I should start a PAC to ban xtianity/religion from the planet. Its the worst disease on them all and needs a cure.