Okay, on the up side...

[beam me up scottie]

we (myself and a great guy I work with) convinced a fundie-but-not-a-freeper-yet christian co-worker of ours to actually sit down and listen to MLK's I Have A Dream speech last night.

His opinion?

He was stunned.

He had no words to describe how moved he was.

He has NEVER, not ONCE, not EVER listened to any of Dr. King's speeches.

Apparently nobody in his family or church ever considered the possibility that MLK's Dream would include them.



This is the kind of intolerance that we're up against, folks.

I think (and he agrees) that many, if not most, white christian fundies around here are taught to ignore the words and deeds of peacemakers like Dr. King, and even worse, to view them with suspicion.



But he listened to the speech with his wife and kids last night.

And Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., long in his grave, still managed to touch the hearts of everyone in that family.


He said he's going to have his daughter download every one of his speeches she can find on the internet.



It's a start.

[shenmue]

1. Wonderful

Never too late to hear that message.

:patriot:

:loveya:

[beam me up scottie]

3. I'll admit,

I was skeptical.

I didn't think this guy would react like that.

Wow.

[havocmom]

2. Up against intolerance AND ignorance.

And then there is willful ignorance, the worst of all.

[beam me up scottie]

4. That's it!

Keep in mind this guy is over forty years old.

Forty years old and never once heard that speech.

It blows my mind.

[salvorhardin]

6. That is amazing

40 years old and never heard it? How is that possible? That speech was part of our 8th grade English class and then again when I took public speaking in my senior year. Even if you're not exposed to it in school, it's repeated endlessly in the media. Or at least it used to be...

I'm constantly stunned by the things I consider to be basic, fundamental knowledge and culture that the majority of people haven't even been exposed to. We have to bridge this gulf.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Oh, don't get me started about how this transplanted

liberal Vermonter is dealing with culture shock on a daily basis.

I'm telling you, it's like another planet.

You have no idea.

Grocery shopping today; the food these people eat alone is enough to give me the screaming me me's.

[WhollyHeretic]

5. Great job! Things like this are a great reminder to the rest of us that

people can be changed and that we need to try to open their minds. Doctor King was an amazing man.

This quote had quite an impact on my development as an activist when I was younger:

"You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit-ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling, for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.

The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved South land been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue."

[beam me up scottie]

7. Powerful words.

From a man who lost his life while helping sanitation workers.

[FM Arouet666]

9. Familiarity brings understanding and understanding brings tolerance..

Great start.......

Your story reminded me of someone converted in similar fashion. This person was a young, inexperienced seventeen year old that joined the U.S. Marines before graduating high school. Thought he was tough, came out of boot camp hating everyone who was different from himself. Funny how boot camp can so easily brainwash a young mind. The Marines, like all services, oppose homosexuality. Oppose is probably not the right word, detest, denigrate, dehumanize are more à propos. The young Marine accepted the intolerance, hating gays, hating liberals, accepting as fact the rantings of Rush, ready to die for the U.S. under the honorable president Ronald Reagan.

The young man met up with a friend, then in college, who questioned his opposition to homosexuals.

"Do you know anyone who is gay? For that matter, what do you know of liberals? How can you hate a whole group when you have no contact, no experience? Prejudice is pre-justice or judging someone without direct knowledge, and you are prejudice. Prejudice is ignorance, do you want to be ignorant?"

Harsh words to be sure. The young Marine accepted the challenge, 'judgment based on experience', he met his buddy's gay and liberal friends, conversed, and found that they were no different than himself. His skull, thickened by the rigors of the Marine Corps, was softening. He was discharged, went to community college, transferring to Berkeley, the bastian of liberalism. Funny how education, exposure to different ideas, different cultures and lifestyles, can guide one to understanding and tolerance.

The older and wiser former Marine now has very close friends who are gay, believes in a woman's right to choose, universal health care, donating time and money to liberal causes. Now anti-gun, anti-death penalty, a bleeding heart liberal. Chesty Puller where are you????????

He sometimes even posts here on DU.............

Again, it is a start, but starts are important.......

[onager]

12. Chesty Puller must have been pretty liberal...

His son ran for Congress in Virginia as a Democrat. And IIRC, the son's biography depicts Puller as being suspiciously close to FDR and the Democrats. (You may remember that the son was wounded horribly in Vietnam, losing both legs. He committed suicide a few years ago.)

One of my favorite Puller yarns is the story about him putting beer machines in the barracks at Camp Pendleton.

This naturally outraged the do-gooders, the buttinskis and the Bible-thumpers. It earned Puller a snippy LTTE in the Oceanside paper, from a local preacher. He ranted about Puller destroying the morals of American Youth etc.

And ended the letter by saying if it weren't illegal, he would challenge Gen. Puller to a duel.

Puller fired off a letter accepting the duel. "And since you issued the challenge, sir, it is my prerogative to choose the weapons.
I choose sawed-off shotguns at 10 paces."

Puller never heard from the guy again.

Oh, and on gays...I think this was in Randy Schilts' book Conduct Unbecoming. This story happened on board a ship during the horribly bloody battle for Okinawa in 1945.

The Pentagon knew the war was ending. And after happily accepting their service during the crisis, the Big Brasss sent out a lot of bright young office pukes to start purging the gays from the services.

One of the Deskbound Commandos approached Gen. Holland M. "Howling Mad" Smith on the ship. He inquired as to whether the General might know of any suspiciously homosexual Marines in his division.

Smith, not known to suffer fools at all and let alone gladly, pointed toward the smoke and fire rising from Okinawa:

"Son, I don't know if any of my Marines are homosexual, since that is none of my goddam business. What I do know is that I got 10,000 Marines on that island and they are taking heavy casualties. The Japs are putting up a hell of a fight.

But if you're so damn curious about their sex lives, I tell you what--I'll put you on a boat, land you on that island, and you can just ask them yourself."

End of inquiry.

[beam me up scottie]

17. I would have been proud to serve under a man like that.

What an amazing story showcasing how stunningly stupid homophobes are.

While men were dying on Okinawa...

[FM Arouet666]

19. Great stories

Thanks for the Puller story, I have to admit I had no idea who he was when I was in the corps. All that "good night Chesty where ever you are" in boot camp left me wondering, "who the hell is Chesty Puller." Years later, after my discharge, I saw a few documentaries on him.

The story of Gen. Smith is enlightening. Who the hell cares about a person's private life, it is none of your goddamn business. Wish we had individuals of strong moral character in politics and the military today.

At least one ray of light...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/18/opinion/18webb.html?ex=1295240400&en=f3e1d4cd5b25ed71&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Most military leaders refused to attack Murtha's record at the behest of the Chimp Administration.

[beam me up scottie]

20. You should write a book.

Seriously.

How many other people have a history like yours?

And you didn't even need to be "saved" in order to see the light.

[FM Arouet666]

21. That is what my mom says.....

I think I am weekly entertainment for my parents. She especially loves the medical stories, she was about to burst when I related the recent rectal foreign body story. I sit around in a towel as well, but I have never found a Corona bottle lodged in my private space. What ever floats your boat, but his wife didn't find the humor in the episode.

Yeah, I was a raging conservative at one point. I remember telling an acquaintance, shortly after discharge, that I was more conservative than Rush Limbaugh. I think many conservatives fall into the same category, conservative by default, with a liberal under the surface ready to be awakened by education and experience.

Branding someone for the sins of their past is a dangerous proposition. Life should be a continuous stream of experience and understanding, stagnation breeds intolerance, stagnation is conservatism.

[beam me up scottie]

22. "I have never found a Corona bottle lodged in my private space"

:spray:
You slay me!

Tell your mom she did a great job and your wife she's damn lucky!:P

[FM Arouet666]

25. Thanks for the kind words but

both would say I am a pain in the ass. I agree, I annoy myself sometimes. ;) As for the Corona bottle, tying floss to the neck of the bottle is supposed to allow for extraction in case of an untoward event. Didn't work in this case. The human animal is certainly complex, sad that the conservatives think we should march to the same christian drummer.

[beam me up scottie]

18. I'm also an ex-Jarhead who's a bleeding heart liberal.

Not to mention a vegetarian and avid flower gardener.

What a journey that is.

[NMMNG]

10. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step

You might have just started this man on such a journey. :thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

14. I hope so.

I REALLY REALLY hope so because this guy, while I do genuinely like him, is one of the worst blabbermouths I have ever known.

I hope he tells everyone about his experience.

[htuttle]

11. You should try to get him to actually read his New Testament...

...he might be just as stunned.

"Feed the poor? Turn the other cheek? I didn't know ANY of this stuff was in here..."

[beam me up scottie]

16. You might be on to something there.

There's no telling HOW much information was kept from him in the last four decades.

He does seem to be tolerant of others when you actually explain WHY we should help those who are less fortunate.

Maybe he picked up some of Jesus' teachings somewhere along the way.

He sure didn't learn about them in his church.

[Zhade]

13. BMUS, you RULE.

Good job, my friend!

:yourock:

[beam me up scottie]

15. High praise indeed...

from a DU legend! :hug:

[Zhade]

23. A legend in my own mind, perhaps.

:D

[Behind the Aegis]

26. We don't agree on some things, but on this I concur!

BMUS Rocks!

[Behind the Aegis]

24. "This is the kind of intolerance that we're up against, folks."

It isn't intolerance as much as it is ignorance. Because someone doesn't personally see something or experience it, it becomes less real to them, for many. It is a big reason most white people polled (it's somewhere here on DU), prior to Katrina, think that racism issues have greatly improved in the past 10 years (I think this a 2004 survey). Yet, most African-Americans polled told a very different story.

The real problem is not intolerance, most of those folks will never breakdown, unless they have a very personal experience. The real problem, IMO, is the "head in the sand" ignorance, such as:

'Racism isn't a problem. Look how many important people are Black.' 'Anti-semitism isn't as bad as it used to be because my mother's neighbor's butcher, who is Jewish, said so.' 'Homophobia is not as bad anymore, I mean, "Will & Grace" is a big show!'

I congratulate you on your accomplishment, because it was a biggie (but, I expect nothing less from you!!)! As we battle the bigotry, we must remember, not to confuse "the intolerant" with "the ignorant." The latter can have their eyes opened, often with just a little prodding. The former, well, let's just say you better have lots of patience and are able to quell the urge to kill.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Actually, when I said intolerance, I meant

the intolerance of the church leaders for keeping their followers ignorant.

The fundie I was talking to might still turn into a Talibornagain, but if he does it now, it will be because of hate, not ignorance.

Thanks for the congrats, it means a lot coming from you.:hug:

[Behind the Aegis]

36. I get what you are saying.

That makes much sense. The truly good spiritual leaders should expect their "flock" to question from time to time and not fall into line at their whim. A truly spiritual person should know when to listen and when to speak up!

I am glad to see you around more, I miss your 'deviltry!" :evilgrin:

I have been hunkered down elsewhere, where I feel I am needed. But it is always good to see you! :hug:

Be well...good things are coming!

[beam me up scottie]

37. Thanks.

I know where to find you and I agree, you are needed there.

I miss you too.:hug:

Stay sober!

[InaneAnanity]

27. Congratulations

It's too bad so many great progressives were murdered in the 60s and 70s.

Sometimes I imagine what our country would be like if John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and John Lennon had never been murdered.

It would definitely be different, and probably be alot better.

[beam me up scottie]

32. You and me both.

You and me both, friend...

[trotsky]

28. If only the magic would always work like this.

You might even get ME to believe in the power of religion. Way to go, bmus!

[onager]

29. Nothing that grand, Mr. t. But today...

...I had an interesting talk with one of my Egyptian co-workers. It sort of goes along with BMUS' story, though I didn't have to do any hard work at converting like she did.

This guy is in his 30's and he was trained at our plant in Los Angeles. He got to talking about how great it was being there, and how he really enjoyed meeting people from all different cultures, races, religions etc.

I'm just guessing that Egyptians, overall, probably aren't any more or less xenophobic than any other folks in the world. Still it was sort of unusual to hear someone come out and be downright enthusiastic about The Evils Of Multi-culturalism...as Faux News would probably put it.

He also said he ran into some "prejudiced people" at the apartment building where they were housed. (No shit. I bet he did.)

This really cracked me up: "I only talked to one man there who loved George W. Bush. He said Americans had a right to all the oil in Iraq and he supported Bush's invasion completely. He said he was a Republican. I thought that was a political party but he talked about it like it was a religion."

:rofl:

I had one uncomfortable moment when he said he "assumed I was a Christian." While I was trying to respond to that one he said: "But you might be a non-believer. That's all right. I have friends who are non-believers. I don't respect them any less."

At that point I was in danger of having a frigging stroke...

[trotsky]

30. You're right, that WAS an interesting talk.

He sure does have his hand on the pulse of the American Republican Party, though. It really has become a religion for them.

[beam me up scottie]

33. Well, magic may be too strong a word...

he's still a misogynist, unfortunately.

But thanks!

[catbert836]

34. A good first step

How these fundies operate is ignorance, pure and simple. If born-again Christianity was a lot smaller than it is, it would be called brainwashing. By getting minds blank as a slate, they are free to introduce their hate-filled worldview into it. Once this has happened, it's a tough uphill battle to introduce reason and common sense into their minds. Dr. King's speech, however is a great start to this process, and here's hoping it's a long journey.
Congrats!

[beam me up scottie]

35. You said it.

That's why they scream bloody murder when public schools try to introduce other cultures and religions during the holiday season.

They're so freaking terrified that junior will end up being tolerant and eventually reject their cult of hate.