Separation of Church and State (Not) - photo

[greyl]

This picture was taken today. Should I be bothered? 'Cause I'm farging bothered, I tell ya.
This is the same church where the pastor said, prior to election 2004, "Now, I'm not gonna talk about politics here, but if you look at which candidate is on the right side of gay marriage and abortion, the choice is clear."

[NanceGreggs]

1. Photos should be sent to IRS!

[MercutioATC]

4. Nope. It's a polling place (see pic #3?)

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. And electioneering is permitted right outside polling places?

In every state I've ever voted -- Arizona, California and Washington -- those signs would be considered felony election tampering.

[MercutioATC]

10. It is here in Ohio. Hell, we have people with signs 20' from the doors.

There's a law regarding how close you can be, but it sure as hell is pretty close.

[Fridays Child]

12. It looks like the signs are not planted beyond the boundary established...

...by the "no campaigning" sign. I vote in Arizona and I see this all the time. It does look bad, when the polling place is a church, though. It also appears that the boundary is closer to the building than the law allows here.

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. I'm used to boundaries of 500 feet, not 10

And Washington law seems to prohibit any kind of political endorsements from church property. At least, I've never seen any signs that were technically on church property. On public easements, sidewalk edgings, median strips and traffic circles in front of churches, yes, but never actually in their yards.

The more I see of how things are done back east, the more I understand why my forebearers chose to leave and make things different here in the west.

[Fridays Child]

23. It's 75 feet here, I think.

[happyslug]

28. And Looks like the HALL in the rear in the Polling Place.

NOT the Church itself. When I voted at a Church is was in the Basement (Where the hall was) NOT in the Church Itself, that seems to be the situation here (Except the Church Hall is in the Rear of the Church NOT its basement).

The Voting Place is the HAll in the Rear so the Signs in front of the Church are NOT near the entrance of the Voting Place. Thus the Sign "No Campaigning" is 20 feet from the Voting Place (The Church Hall) NOT 20 feet from the Church main entrance.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Perhaps it depends on local statutes.

Signs permitted, but pamphletting forbidden. Pamphletting permitted but speaking to voters forbidden. Anything goes, outside, but nothing allowed inside.

I think that the board of elections could find a better venue for a polling place than a church, however. But I remember hearing complaints about a polling place in a union hall, because the local republicans considered it to be 'enemy territory'.

[MemphisTiger]

42. It depends on the state

In my state they have to be a certain distance from the entrances. I don't recall the actual distance.

[happyslug]

27. Why BOTH CANDIDATES NAMES ARE IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH.

n/t

[MercutioATC]

2. I agree. Churches should NOT be polling places.

If for no other reason that a member of another religion might feel uncomfortable walking into a Christian church.

[BR_Parkway]

13. I always thought malls would be great polling places - everyone

goes there anyway, corporate America would jump on board the idea since more potential customers in the stores, plenty of space out of the rain, plenty of bathrooms/parking, ADA requirements met.

[MercutioATC]

16. That's actually a great idea.

I can't think of any negatives. Much better than 1) Churches or 2) Schools (letting random people into a building that regulary has lots of children in it).

[happyslug]

22. But at what PRICE????

Remember one of the Reasons Churches are use is that the Church often will charge nothing or just the cost of heating the place up for the day (Most Churches like to see their Church used as often as possible). Furthermore Malls are NOT in every Voting District, just like most voting districts do not have Schools, Fire Halls or other Public Buildings.

You will be surprised at the cost to set up one of those little Kiosks in a Mall (Thousand of Dollars a Month Rent for a five year contract). Governments just can NOT compete with that price even if they was a mall in every Voting District.

I give you an example I know, I know a town that is now a Suburb of Pittsburgh but started out as a Railroad stop in the 1800s. There are NO public Building except one Church. They is a little Country Store but it is NOT large enough to hold the voting machines let alone the Voters, thus all you can use in that Church (Which is often used by the people in the Town EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT A MEMBER OF THAT CHURCH). That Church is the town "Center" given the lack of any other "Public Building". The only other choice is to have the voting place over two miles away. They are no other options in the case of that Town. Most Churches that are also Voting Places tend to be the same, often the only "Public Building" in the Area.

Another situation is where you need a large place for a meeting in a neighborhood BUT AGAIN NO PUBLIC BUILDINGS except for the Churches. Thus the Meeting has to be held at the Church or no place at all. It would be nice NOT to hold such meetings in Churches, but sometime you have no choice IF YOU WANT A PLACE PEOPLE CAN GET TO.

[MercutioATC]

25. Malls and town halls are open every day anyway...no extra cost.

If necessary, legislate free use of mall space for elections (I seriously doubt the owners would mind, it's an influx of potential shoppers).

For those with neither a town hall (or other suitable public building) or shopping mall within a reasonable distance, absentee voting is available. You bring up the possibility of having a polling place over two mines away. Hell, my old polling place was in a church and it was three miles away (there was a perfectly servicible town hall right across the street, but it wasn't used).

I'm not saying that churches aren't convenient. I'm saying that they have the potential to negatively impact the process. In that spirit, I think we should be looking for alternatives.

[happyslug]

30. LEgislate??? Then you will being taking property without Compensation.

Thus you can NOT force someone to be a Voting Place, they have to agree. Malls generally will NOT agree (and most times are located near fire stations or Public Buildings so those are preferred over any other Voting Place including Malls). Thus the problem is Voting Districts WITHOUT SUCH NON-RELIGIOUS "Public Places". Remember some people do NOT have Automobiles and thus have to WALK to their voting Place (I have ALWAYS WALKED). Malls may be convenient to some people, inconvenient to others. Voting Places have to be Convenient to people, and convenient means within reasonable walking distance. Malls generally do NOT fit that requirement given that they tend to be in area where a lot of shops and stores but very few Residents. Malls would be a good idea but remember Churches are generally picked because they are NO FIRE HALL, UNION HALL, SCHOOL OR OTHER LARGE BUILDING OR HALL THAT CAN BE USED AS A VOTING PLACE. What do you propose for such voting Districts? Districts where the only "Public Places" are Churches?

Also remember the Cost to the County has to be low (Free if Possible). The problem is NOT in the idea that Churches should not be used as Voting Places, but in the DETAIL OF WHAT ELSE TO USE IN THOSE DISTRICTS WHERE NO OTHER PUBLIC BUILDING EXISTS.

[MercutioATC]

31. I think malls WOULD agree. Why wouldn't they?

That aside, churches are not "public places". They're privately-owned buildings.

The problem you cite (distance) ALREADY exists in much of rural America. Rarely do people who live in the country have a church within walking distance. They're already having to drive to vote. Most city dwellers have the advantage of public transportation (something that rural folks don't). If the people in cities can use public transportation and the people in the country already drive, how is walking an issue?

[happyslug]

32. I lived in both types of Areas.

I walk to my Polling place in an Urban environment. Public Transportation does exist BUT IS NOT DESIGNED TO GET PEOPLE TO THEIR POLLING PLACES BUT TO WHERE THEIR WORK AND BACK HOME AGAIN. Thus people in Urban areas walk or drive to their polling place which has to be close to them.

In Rural areas, you have to drive but often you have to drive OUT OF YOUR VOTING DISTRICT to get to any Public Buildings other than a Church. Thus Churches are often used in Rural Areas. Remember Voting Districts tend to be small, rare even in Rural Counties to have only one Voting Place in a County. Voting Places not only are places where you vote for the President, and Congress, but your State and local elected Officials. Thus you can not have Voting places that covers more than one Municipality (and often many voting districts per Municipality). This is the problem finding places for people to vote that does NOT include people who live outside the political borders of the local municipality. Many Municipality do to pressure from the Voters tend to have Several Voting Districts so that people do not have to go far to vote. This large number of small voting Districts is what cause the problem. You often have Voting Districts where the only places open to the public (one definition of the term "Public Places") are Churches. Thus Churches have to be used.

Remember the term "Public" can have two definitions, one signifying ownership by the Government (The dominate American Definition) but another meaning open to the Public (The Dominate English Definition). I use the term "Dominate" for both countries use the term "Public" in both Senses. For example a "Certified Public Account" or CPA is used on both sides of the Atlantic, but was invented in England as a term for an Accountant checking the books of British "Public" Companies (i.e. a corporation whose stock could be purchased by the "public" i.e or anyone). Both Countries used the Term "Public Parks", but in Britain it means the park is open to the Public, in America it is owned by the Government AND open to the Public. Thus BOTH definitions are usable when it comes to the term "Public Places" and the reason I use the term in "". For the term "Public" has been used both ways for over 150 years in America.

Now, maybe the problem is I live in Pennsylvania where we have NEVER had non-incorporated areas (You live in a City, a Borough or a Township in addition to a School district and your County, unlike other states that have Rural areas NOT incorporated and the only local Government is the County and the Public School District). William Penn when he formed the COlony Of Pennsylvania set up the state to always have local Government in addition to County Government. These municipalities tend to be quite small which leads to even smaller Voting Districts. With Small voting Districts you have a problem finding a suitable place for a Voting Place. Given the problem most places once selected to be a Voting place tend to stay voting places for decades. Thus every Church I Know that is a Voting Place has been a Voting Place for Decades.

[BR_Parkway]

37. As a condition of building that beast in the first place, they already

have ordinances in place about # of parking spots, # of entry points, why not make it a condition of their operating permits?

Seriously, the malls wouldn't bitch at all if it were coupled with a public holiday for voting - the store owners would beat the mall owners senseless if they didn't agree. Look how many people they'd have in front of their doors?

In the rural South where I am, alot of the voting is done at the fire departments - with a church on every corner - the competition as to where to hold the polls could get uglier than the church league softball competitions, and they rank right up there with high school football!

[happyslug]

17. Then what do you want to use????

You want easy to walk to polling places, Schools are often use but are NOT ALWAYS in all voting districts. Volunteer Fire Halls are use, but like Schools not in ALL places. Full Time Police Stations are to busy (And Full Time Fire Departments are even rarer than Volunteer Fire Departments, through Full Time Fire stations are often used). Businesses do NOT want their Business location tied up as a Voting place, thus you are left with private homes or Churches (Parks would be nice, but not usable when it is raining or if it is winter). Private Homes generally are NOT large enough thus you have to use churches (Mostly in the Basement or Church Hall, rarely in the Church itself).

As to other people who are NOT Christians going into a Church, generally NOT a problem. You see the Church and the sign saying vote here and everyone involved tries to make it easy for you to get in and Vote (and this is true of Schools, Fire Halls and other Voting Locations).

The only place I have seen being avoided are Bars and Saloons, generally bar based on old laws against giving liquor to people to vote (A bad problem in the 1800s).

Now I have Voted in a Full Time Fire Department station (that use to be a Church decades ago), a Public School and a Couple of Churches (None of which I was a Member in). I have NEVER had any problem getting into any to vote and the first time I went to one everyone was helpful directing me to the hall under the Church to vote (as opposed the the Church Itself). I am sorry, if you want voting to be convenient to people, you churches are often the best location for a Voting Place given that we do NOT have a Fire Department, School or other Public Building on every block.

I remember about 10 years ago when my home county had to consolidate Voting districts (Do to lost of population in the older urban areas), the Judge in Charge combined my old district with a district that had a School for its Voting Place (My old District had had a basement of a Baptist Church). This caused all types of problems IN THAT THE NEW VOTING DISTRICT WAS 1/2 MILE AWAY AND SOME SENIOR CITIZENS HAD PROBLEMS Walking to it (The Church was MUCH closer to them). Voting Districts have to be CLOSE to people so they can vote, and Churches are often the best locations when the District has no FIre halls, Schools or other Public Building in the Voting District.

[MercutioATC]

20. I think malls and town halls would be good places to start.

For anybody that has difficulty getting to a polling place, absentee voting is available.

I don't think churches or schools should be used at all.

[noahmijo]

3. What you expect any organized religion to be honest?

bahahahaha!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I get the point of your post though, but my point organized religion ALLL OF IT is nothing but a business which sells to the highest bidder for profit-NOTHING MORE.

[greyl]

9. Heck no, not me.

I basically agree with your point.

[demosincebirth]

19. How about unorganized religion?

Don't paint with such a wide brush, my friend

[greyl]

24. Can you name an unorganized religion that solicits donations?

The very fact of soliciting donations would mean it's organized.

[demosincebirth]

33. Whats wrong with soliciting donations? All liberal Churches solicit

I was also being facetious.

[greyl]

34. facetious? Oh, nevermind :) nt

[noahmijo]

29. Every single form of organized religion is in some way guilty

of soliciting wealth-in some cases stealing it.


We won't go any further, but I don't care what you or anyone believes in, but the fact of the matter is organized religion is the most successful corporation in the world. Period.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. If that is a true polling place, then they are probably in violation of

campaign laws. There is a distance around a polling place where all campaign materials are prohibited. Contact your head of elections and complain.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. The "No campaigning or distribution of literature beyond this point"

sign is priceless. I need to get a pin that says that to ward off fundagelicals.

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. "The candidate on the right side of gay marriage"

That would be the candidate who supports equal rights for all people, right? Just like the state and federal Constitutions require?

[greyl]

14. Your poignant sarcasm is noted and appreciated. :)

Of course, we know he didn't mean that.
He didn't care about what works better, he cared about The One Right Way To Live.

I wonder if any of the "Authentic Christians of DU" who see this thread are jumping on the phone to call the Pastor and use logic and well reasoned rational arguments to perhaps influence his views?

Oh, I just remembered: Faith is above logic and rationality and never the tween shall meet.

[LA lady]

11. Spotsylvania, I think

This is for a special election being held today in Vriginia. Montgomery is the Dem and Peace is the Repub.

[greyl]

21. No, this is in New Kent. I took the pictures.

What bothers me is that the pastor of this church has undue emotional influence over his congregation, hence his congregation will tend to show up in God's House to vote Republican just to be "in God's favor".

[ClintonTyree]

26. If there were a tax on stupidity........

we'd have a budget surplus again. :eyes: There's a reason god's followers are referred to as "sheep".

[LA lady]

36. sorry

I read that Peace won, sorry.

I used to live in VA and was just guessing on the place. I lived south of Richmond, my son goes to VCU

[greyl]

38. Yeah, it's bullshit.

Am I way out of line to think that churchgoers are generally conservative and that setting up polling places in those where the pastor says, in effect, "God wants you to vote Republican" is tipping the scales just a bit unfairly?

[beam me up scottie]

35. Welcome to my world.

I had to vote in a church last year.

And it wasn't one of the nice liberal ones, either.

It was one of the denominations that would love to throw my atheist ass in jail or out of the country altogether, since burning me on a cross in now technically against the law.

[Popol Vuh]

39. I wonder.

What if a church of Satan painted in all black and furnished with all the Satanic symbols was made a polling place. Do you think Christians would cry foul and demand the law to put a stop to it?

Oh man I can just see the image of that now..

[Igel]

40. Dunno if you should be bothered.

If it were a school or senior citizen center, would you be bothered? After all, it looks like the no-campaigning perimeter was violated.

As for church/state, it rather depends on who put the signs up, and if they weren't put up by the church administrators, if they selectively took them down.

It might be the case that Peace and Montgomery, whether in the congregation or not, put up the signs. That's the key bit of info I need to know whether I should be outraged. Otherwise I'm wasting my time, getting outraged at the wrong people and feeling good about my mistake.

[MemphisTiger]

41. Many small towns use the local church for town meetings

and such. Many churches in my larger city are used for polling locations. It's not big deal unless these signs were put up by the church for a purpose or if the preacher is blatantly endorsing a candidate.