How do you know when someone is enlightened or channeling?

[trotsky]

Interesting article:

For Alvarez, the creation of the character "Carlos" was a performance/experiment to see how far he could take his creation, but his purpose was not to make people look foolish. He hoped to liberate them from a false belief. However, the result of the performance seemed to demonstrate how easy it is to create a cult from scratch and how, even when the truth is revealed to them, some still refuse to accept it. The "Carlos" hoax also demonstrated how gullible and uncritical the mass media are when covering paranormal or supernatural topics. Rather than having an interest in exposing the truth, the members of the media were obsessed with "Carlos" the phenomenon and transformed his character from a hoax to a myth. The character Alvarez had so arduously created was transmogrified by the press. The media didn't even need to do any research to have determined that "Carlos" was not genuine. The biggest clue was handed to them on a silver platter: "Carlos" performed for free. He offered crystals from Atlantis for sale, but took orders rather than cash. Every journalist should know that the first sign of an authentic fake guru is greed.

Source:"Carlos" hoax of Jose Alvarez

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Know them by their works

If you have been in the presence of a Master, you know, for the teachings and blessings flow freely. Their task is to enlighten, not enrich themselves. A true master knows and understands the burden of wealth, and either shuns it or if it is his, is indifferent to it.

As for channelling-there are many "unseen beings" but just because they are without a body doesn't necessarily mean that they have the inside track to things. What might matter here is how what is brought through feels in your heart-not your head.

That being said, there are many charletans out there. A true master doesn't seek students, but is sought. He or she doesn't take on all students, and the work that is done with the student is not done in public, but very privately.

[greyl]

2. That doesn't answer the question at all.

In fact, your response only bolsters the position of the OP. You're saying you know they are authentic because they convince you they are authentic. That's begging the question.

"That being said, there are many charletans out there."

We agree on that, so: How do you tell the difference?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. It does

I know of enlightened beings who gave up power, wealth, and prestige in following God. Their lives would have been much easier if they hadn't heeded the call.

Another way to tell if someone was real or not might have to do with whether or not his/her teachings lasted past their lifetime, especially for several generations.

As to how you tell the difference-look to your own heart.

[Beetwasher]

10. How Do You Know It's Not An Alien?

Maybe it's advanced alien technology that allows them to take over a human body for a while. :shrug:

Maybe it's a demon pretending to be a spirit for some reason you are incapable of comprehending?

Look to your heart???? Why? Because it's infallible?

[Orrex]

11. It doesn't.

I know of enlightened beings who gave up power, wealth, and prestige in following God. Their lives would have been much easier if they hadn't heeded the call.

That's a wildly speculative and subjective assessment. You have no way to determine whether "the call" was from God, so you can't use that claim in your argument. Also, we can all name lists of people whose lives were made substantially less easy by choosing to back the wrong theological horse. The followers of David Koresh spring to mind, as do the imbibers who followed Jim Jones at the punch bowl. The extremity of circumstance resulting from one's decisions does not impart mystical significance or "enlightmentment" to those decisions.

If they did, then my decision to accept a college loan from Sallie Mae would qualify as a deeply mystical experience.

Another way to tell if someone was real or not might have to do with whether or not his/her teachings lasted past their lifetime, especially for several generations.

Also unconvincing. People can be deluded by a charismatic figure's ramblings even long after the rambler has gone to dust. Ask L. Ron Hubbard, for example.

As to how you tell the difference-look to your own heart.

Profoundly unconvincing! Reagan's "own heart" told him that he didn't engage in illegal arms deals, but that only means that, at best, he was wildly self-delusional. Looking at one's own heart is nothing but an exercise in introspection--not useless per se, but not helpful in convincing anyone but oneself.

[trotsky]

3. Lots of people can put on a GREAT act.

This "Carlos" fella proved it. All an act, yet people were totally convinced, and some even refused to believe it was a hoax, because his message seemed SO real. You can begin to see how anyone with a knowledge of the New Age buzzwords and a desire to make some moolah can quickly built a cult and gain an air of legitimacy.

I tend to agree with you, that someone with true "enlightenment" should care nothing about material wealth, yet countless gurus and channelers live in opulence and grandeur, but that doesn't sway their "true believers" one bit. Or, they feel it's deserved, because they are doing such a wonderful thing.

[Orrex]

4. I agree, though I'm not sure about one point

This: someone with true "enlightenment" should care nothing about material wealth,

I'm not sure how to justify that assertion. Heck, for all I know, "enlightenment" might mean a supernatural appreciation for expensive and shiny things. For that matter, I suspect that if I'd been a disembodied spirit for 40,000 years or so, I'd be seriously jonesing for some not-so-spiritual action, so to speak.

But for someone to convince me of their enlightenment or that they're channeling a spirit, I'd need to see some evidence that can't be explained by any mundane means. That means that spooky voices and trite homilies are not sufficient. Swooning acolytes and vague, non-falsifiable "prophecies" likewise don't cut it.

Show me something that can't be explained except through actual channeling or "enlightenment," and then I'll consider it.

And then someone give me a definition of "enlightenment" that doesn't sound like David Carradine or a summary of The Matrix.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Someone who is enlightened doesn't

try to convince another. There is no need. Enlightenment simply is. Frankly, I don't think it can be defined. As Joe Miller, an American mystic said, "It can't be bought. It can't be taught. But it can be caught."

[trotsky]

9. You're absolutely right.

I don't know how the hell "enlightenment" would manifest itself in a person, or even if it's truly a real concept. I'm just going on the traditional view of being spiritually "in tune" with the universe, I guess.

Your evidence requirements would satisfy me, too.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

5. A good start would be

"The Demon-Haunted World" by the late Carl Sagan.

An oft-repeated slogan is, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

As to how you would prove it, that depends on the entity allegedly being channeled. For example, if someone claims to be psychically in contact with an advanced extraterrestrial race, don't ask questions about advanced morality, ask for a proof or disproof of Goldbach's Conjecture.

Similarly, if soneone claims to channel a 40,000 year old Atlantean, ask to hear some of the Atlantean language -- give them two or three similar sentences to translate, so you can see if the same vocabulary is used. Then, days or weeks later, ask them again (same sentences, obviously) and compare the differences.

[beam me up scottie]

6. OH YES ...YES ...YES... YES YES YES!!!

I'm reminded of a certain scene in When Harry Met Sally...

[ex nec 8404]

12. Actions speak louder than words,

especially over a period of time.

[trotsky]

13. They certainly do, but...

as was shown by this guy, you can fake the actions pretty well. If he had been an unscrupulous person, he probably could have easily continued the ruse for as long as he wanted.

Welcome to DU!