Miracles, let me tell you about a "Miracle"

[FM Arouet666]

I was paged a few nights ago about a potential patient. I pondered whether to respond, after all, the night was quiet, and the ER calling was in the middle of no-where. Feeling no obligation, but curiosity, I responded.

The ED physician told me he had a 30 something year old who needed a surgeon, begged that I would accept. Apparently the ED doc had called just about every hospital within 200 miles and could not find an accepting physician. I accepted, the patient sounded very sick and needed to go to the OR ASAP.

Well, the patient was more than sick, he was critical. Arriving to my hospital, I took him to the OR immediately. Young guy, 10 days younger than myself.

I worked from 11 pm to dawn, about a 6 hour operation to save this chaps life. His injury was severe, I gave him a 20% chance of survival. Survive he did, he did not turn a hair. On POD3 he was up, out of bed, a normal human being. I was surprised, but I have seen many patients defeat the odds.

His family thanked me today. They informed me that "it must have been a miracle that *patient* survived, only Jesus could have saved him from such dire injuries."

Thanks, but I am not jesus, nor did I see jesus in the OR.

For those that believe, what miracles have you seen? What constitutes a miracle? How do you know something is a miracle?

If god was working through my hands saving this old boys life, why can't god work through my hands when picking lotto numbers? Or jerking off? Or pointing a smiting finger at my enemy? Hello, HELLO, god, Hey GOD, wake up. :evilgrin:

On edit, I forgot to mention the reason this chap was turned down by all those other surgeons, seems the patient had the unfortunate luck of being born on the wrong side of the U.S. border. A mortal sin in Bush America.......

[varkam]

1. It's a christian thing...

I remember when that airliner (JetBlue I think) made that emergency landing a few months ago and everyone in the news was saying "It's a miracle!", leaving all the highly trained emergency responders hanging out in the wind. It's as if they could've taken the day off - "It's all right guys! GOD'S got this one!".

Miracles are simply a way for people who believe in god to reconcile the poverty of their imagination with the complexity and (sometimes) inanity of reality.

[and-justice-for-all]

2. People Like that...

Are just weak and never give theirselves nor others any credit for ANYTHING....'Its a Miracle', praise Jehova or should I say YHWH/IEUE or perhaps Jove. Anyway you look at, all things christian are stolen ideals from religions older then it.

[rucky]

3. go to google news & run the keyword "miracle"

it's a miracle that there are so many miracles

[koopie57]

4. It must be wonderful to be able to save someone from

death and to save a family from having to bury someone they love. If I had that power, I would too consider that there is no God. But I do not have such power. I am like your patient, at the mercy of someone. I believe in God and angels cuz one day I was driving my two children (who were still in car seats) to daycare and I entered an intersection at a green light and another car entered that intersection under a red light. I thought we were all dead but something wierd happened (it seemed like we both drove through another in a fog) and I pulled to the side of the road and put my head in my hands until I dared look up. We were all safe and people were driving by me looking like they just saw death warmed over.

Maybe there is a God, and maybe there isn't. And maybe someone needs to believe in God and maybe you don't need to. It is all good. You did a good thing. Maybe God helped you, maybe not. What difference does it make? Sleep well. Look yourself in the mirror and keep giving a shit. It is good what you do. If you have help, the helper must see good in you, if not, you are God. It is all good.

[fasttense]

5. It is easier to thank a god than to show gratitude.

Some people find it very difficult to say thank you and be grateful for the assistance of strangers. If they thank a god, then they think god helped them because they are special. If they continue to be special, then they have some control over what happens to them. They must be good and loving people or Jesus would not have helped them with a miracle.

To admit the kindness of a stranger helped them, is to admit they have no control over the happen chances of life. What if that stranger was not there? What if an unskilled surgeon had operated? These are risks they cannot face. Therefore, god has singled them out for this very special reward. And all is right with the world even if god doesn't send a miracle to the 12 year old girl who is abused and locked in the basement. She was just not special enough, but they were.

[FM Arouet666]

15. Strange but true.....

I would have to agree. My impression of religion is that of a belief system which satisfies a selfish need. The need to be special, a personal relationship with god, an after life etc etc. Sure, religious folks do offer help to the poor and sick, but you have to wonder if they do so to please their god. Would mother Theresa live in poverty if she did not believe in a god who would reward her suffering?

Yes, a broad stroke, and no, all religious folk may not think in this way. But, I wonder how much of religious belief is motivated out of selfishness and fear.

[Zhade]

29. Excellent post.

Notice how it`s always a 'miracle' but rarely 'god's' fault?

[no_hypocrisy]

6. I try not to confuse miracles with beating low odds in a risky

proposition. I am grateful when things turn out the way I would like them.

I'm an attorney and voluntarily take pro bono cases (sometimes too often) and my clients get the best representation I can offer. Last year, I took a "St. Judes" case (a nearly hopeless situation) for no money and gave a man his future back, so I understand your elation with saving your patient's life. Congratulations, you are more than a physician, you are a healer.

[renter]

7. FM Aroue 666, thank you.

You just told us a miracle. I don't want this to sound sarcastic or in any way demeaning to your medical abilities. Has the same O.R. staff and you operated on similar injuries on similar patients? Have you failed on less severe patients? Perhaps Doc, you were part of a family's miracle. In awnser to your question, yes I have seen and am part of a miracle now.
My single Mom sister died from pulmonary hypertension secondary to scleraderma. She was very close to our mother, who passed away a few years before from cancer. My sister's only child, and our parents only grandchild, was beginning the process of obtaining his drivers license and was beginning to run with the wrong crowd in school. After my sister's death my father and I absorbed the responsibility of my nephew. Through God's guidance, my nephew graduated high school as an academic honor student, enlisted in the Army, and wants to be a policeman. He stated he was doing this to help others. God did not cure my sister's disease. God's help enabled our family to understand her physical death-a fate that we will all share. We know she is in a better place. God gave my nephew a new road to life, when my sister reached the end of hers. Many times we pray for things, instead of God's moral guidance.
I would say Doc, that you did not see Jesus, but you did see one of his results.

[trotsky]

9. But you see, it's not fair to pick only the favorable results.

Think of the thousands of desperate prayers on doomed airplanes - unanswered.

Millions of beautiful innocent children, struck down by disease or accident, despite intense prayers - unanswered.

Bush and his minions bring death and destruction around the world, and the prayers of liberals and compassionate people - unanswered.

Why do you get to pick one good outcome, and disregard the millions of not-so-fortunate ones?

[manic expression]

12. By definition

a miracle does something that wouldn't ever happen without the miracle. Therefore, to people who cite these sorts of things as "miracles", the times when no miracle occurs (your situations) are simply that: when no miracle occurs. I'm not arguing that, by the way.

[greyl]

19. So then, those who see miracles don't understand the definition?

If a miracle does something that wouldn't ever happen without the miracle, people are seeing miracles where there is simply the law of averages, or commonplace occurrences. (you know what I mean)

[manic expression]

22. Well

people who attribute something to a "miracle" think the result was going to be tragedy, but changed because of a miracle. So when they look at the things that don't go well, they just see situations that are devoid of miracles.

(I don't know if I addressed what you said)

Yes, they do not see many aspects of reality, including what you pointed out and the actual circumstances involved in something.

[Boojatta]

17. "Many times we pray for things, instead of God's moral guidance."

A lot of charities seem to do that.

"You don't want to give us money? Then we don't have time to answer any questions. We don't need to think about anything. We have it all figured out already. All we need is money."

[trotsky]

8. Well done, FM.

Kudos to you, doc. :thumbsup:

I'd rather have just one level-headed atheist doctor looking after me than 1 billion people praying for me.

[Alpharetta]

10. How do you know?

How do you know something is a miracle?

That points to the nature of belief. We believe to be true what we do not know.

Some people want to believe. Others don't want to believe.

Wanting and doing are two different things. Some who don't want to believe still believe, and others who do want to believe don't.

[FM Arouet666]

13. Believe it or not, I am open to the notion of a miracle.

If I amputate a person's leg, and he grows the thing back. I might be convinced. That is the problem with "medical miracles" all of them can and do occur without a need for a supernatural agent. Take the miracles of Lourdes for example. Grand claims of miraculous cures. But when looked at closely most are relatively common diseases that have a tendency to regress. Cancer, you say? Lourdes has only a handful of cancer "cures." If fact, if you look at the number of pilgrims going to Lourdes each year seeking a cure for cancer and compare that to the spontaneous remission rate of cancer, Lourdes has a lower than suspected "cure" rate. Lourdes causes cancer?

I tend to follow David Hume's quote in my tag line when considering claims of miracles.........

[beam me up scottie]

14. Snort!

Now there's something you don't see on the teevee when they're healing the sick and the wounded.

"Look JimBobJoe, Granny grew her another leg when that there preacher laid hands on her..."

:rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

18. Why do you hate America?

Regression to the mean is the talk of terrorists.

So if it was a miracle, does god have a huge hard on for those people that die?

It is people like you that restore my "faith" in humanity.

[manic expression]

28. On one level

if someone wants to attribute regression of cancer to a miracle, there isn't really anything wrong with that.

What is misled is attributing something to Jesus (one example) when the person who did the "miracle" is standing right in front of them. However, you can look at something in quite another way. For instance, (IIRC) the doctors of Ancient Egypt prayed to a certain deity before working on a patient. This was to evoke deeper levels of the world and other beings to help with their job. They were also the best doctors of their day, by far. Is that so invalid? Quite the contrary, in my opinion.

There is a real difference between rational beliefs and irrational beliefs, and I do think your experience was with the latter.

[FM Arouet666]

37. However

I agree, if an individual has regression of cancer and wants to attribute it to a miracle, great, knock yourself out. However, what I find to be troubling is religious sites which offer cures, sometimes in lieu of traditional medical therapy. There is something wrong with pushing a cure based on alternative medicine, i.e unproven therapy, or offering a miracle by laying on the hands, Benny Hinn et al, if the patient opts for the alternative rather than the traditional treatment. Patients will suffer because the alternative will likely not work.

If I save your butt and you chalk it up to Jesus, great, I will blog about it, but you lived, that is all that counts. If you go to some charlatan preacher like Hinn instead of your doc you will suffer, and I find that to be unacceptable.

[catbert836]

11. Excellent job, FM Arouet

People should learn that humans, just like themselves are capable of performing "miracles", and not to stick them on God all the time.
:toast:

[jbnow]

16. It would feel like a miracle to me

Though I would thank the doctor!

We use miracle as something unbelievably wonderful, that is used too loosely.

If Christ was working through you it was the compassion of your heart to say yes and take the patient, the dedication of your work and your staff and your talent/skill.

Note I said Christ and not Jesus. Jesus was the man (or myth), the Christ energy is what he was filled with. You don't have to believe in Jesus to be a channel for the Christ energy.

In the old testament there were tragic "miracles".

I have trouble with your questions about it too. When I was a child my parents had that picture in my room of the guardian angel watching over the kids crossing the rickety bridge. Nice concept but troubling even then. What's with the kids that fall and die painfully? No angel, sloppy angel, unworthy kids?

Troubles me still when I hear "It's a miracle they survived" regarding a soldier, a crash or disaster victim. What about the ones that did die?

And yet...if a loved one of mine survived a close call, if you saved them through your work when there seemed to be no hope, well my heart would declare it a miracle.From loss and despair to rejoicing, there are few words for that, so miracle comes out.

If Christ energy does work through our hands it would be through our gift or skill (though I realize you might claim that would include your masturbation or gambling), the ones we came to share. If there are miracles we might not even know there are a part of them. If there aren't miracles there are still things that feel that wonderful. What you did was that wonderful to the family.

[Zebedeo]

20. Congratulations on your fine work

You deserve to be commended for taking the case and for saving the man's life.

Some might call it a miracle, and perhaps it was. However, there are a number of non-miraculous possible explanations for what occurred:

1. He did have a 20% chance of survival, and the one-in-five event occurred.
2. He had better than a 20% chance of survival, and your prognosis was incorrect.
3. He had a lower than 20% chance of survival, but beat the odds.

The use of the term "miracle" is usually reserved for events that have no non-miraculous possible explanations, such as Jesus walking on water, the Red Sea parting for Moses, Jesus turning water into wine, feeding 5,000 people with a few loaves and fishes, etc.

Then again, it is possible that God worked through your hands to save this man's life.

In any event, good job!

[FM Arouet666]

23. I tend not to agree with your posts, but

I would agree with your supposition that;
"The use of the term "miracle" is usually reserved for events that have no non-miraculous possible explanations" a mirror of my David Hume tag line.

If I was a believer I would take offense at the lackadaisical use of the word 'miracle', attributing common place occurrences to the realm of miracle seems to cheapen the true article.

As for your list of explanations, number two is correct, and I admit it. I often low ball estimates. Like Scottie on Star Trek.

[Zebedeo]

26. Captain, I can't change the laws of physics!

And yet, after the commercial break, he did somehow save the ship with those overheated dilithium crystals.

Yeah, it is better to lowball the chances of survival than to do the opposite and give false hope.

Theologically, I think there is a difference between a true "miracle" and mere "divine intervention." Without more evidence, I would chalk your result up to the skill of a good surgeon. But I would not argue with the family if they believe it was a miracle.

[FM Arouet666]

30. Never argue with the family. Absolutely true.

I see all sorts of people, believers, non-believers, new-agers, and some I would classify as just plain crack pots. Part of being a professional is allowing others to have their reality as long it does not compromise my role as a physician. Case in point, pushing me to place a central line, a glorified i.v. in the jugular vein, so as to receive chelation therapy after discharge by an alternative med practitioner. Nope, can't do it.

You want me to hold hands and pray, give me a hug, tell me a story about aunt Jane's amazing cure, knock yourself out, I am game. Miracles, never seen one, and I don't believe in them, but I allow families and patients faced with serious illness to describe things as they like without the judgment of a tired and crotchety atheist. I guess it is all part of being compassionate.

Strange that an atheist would accept the following as a basic human truism. Silly evil atheists..........:evilgrin:

Gospel of Matthew (7:12): “In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you. . . .”

[Silent3]

33. Of course, compassion and good works aren't enough.

You'll still burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity if you don't "Accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior"™. Bad, bad naughty atheist! :P

[FM Arouet666]

35. It's ok, though

Because of my connection with the medical field I hope to bring enough sun block to Hell to protect me for eternity. I figure an SPF 1000 should do the trick, cool shades and a cooler of Guinness, and Hell might be fun. Oh, and the barbecue should be outstanding. :evilgrin:

[Zebedeo]

34. quick question off topic

Speaking of "alternative med," what's the deal with osteopathic medicine? I've always assumed it is bs.

[FM Arouet666]

36. Yes and No.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/do/about.asp

The philosophy behind osteopathic medicine is, in my opinion, less grounded in science. The reality of osteopathy is that many doctors of osteopathy DOs enter the field because they could not get into medical school. They opt for DO school and then go to a traditional residency. I have many DO colleagues all of them trained along side MDs in residency and practice in groups with MDs. I have seen DOs get into surgical residencies, a difficult task given the competition, and they are trained exactly the same as their MD counterparts.

Osteopathic medicine, again my opinion, is not as loony as homeopathic 'medicine' or chiropractic 'medicine.' However, if you see a DO and s/he pushes something which sounds a bit nutty, I would research the recommended treatment carefully. I am sure some DOs do believe in the osteopathy stuff, but most simply didn't make the cut for med school. Oh, and don't brand someone who doesn't make the cut to med school as dumb. I have seen HUGE numbers of people get in that have NO business in the field of medicine, and many who applied multiple times but failed, who would have made excellent docs.

[Zebedeo]

39. Thanks n/t

:)

[progressoid]

21. South of the border, eh?

Odds are, he was of a particular religious persuasion. That would help him in the miracle dept.

Dollar for dollar, being Catholic is your best buy for miracles.




Do I have to add this....? :sarcasm:

[funflower]

24. Thanks for takin' one in the wallet so the rest of us don't have to pay

for health care for one of our less fortunate fellow humans.

[FM Arouet666]

31. Actually you took one in the wallet too.

My fee is nothing compared to the hospital cost. We all chip in and pay in the end. To be honest, I haven't a clue how things get paid, or, for that matter, how I get paid. Just a confusing world of insurance companies, medicare plans and the like. A big old mess which leaves something like 40 million Americans without any coverage what so ever.

[LaurenG]

25. How selfless of you, you have my admiration

I had to laugh really hard at this point "If god was working through my hands saving this old boys life, why can't god work through my hands when picking lotto numbers? Or jerking off? Or pointing a smiting finger at my enemy? Hello, HELLO, god, Hey GOD, wake up"- I think we all relate. I think all of our education about God has been poisoned. I would take the position that God is in everything it's that spirit in you that made you say YES. I think God is mostly subtle and he/she/it is you and me and yes even trotsky, ~ :evilgrin:

It's my opinion that miracles are natural and made by the spirit of goodness. Without you there would have been no miracle so I guess you are a miracle maker in cahoots with your own spirit of goodness.

I believe in miracles, the love and compassion in the human heart makes them happen everyday. Now what animates us, makes us breathe and have a beating heart is another unanswerable question (imho).

[FM Arouet666]

32. Shit, even Trotsky??????

There goes the neighborhood. ;) Hey god, you gunna take an Atheist like Trotsky, oh, wait I am one too. :evilgrin:

Whatever floats your boat, I am not a believer, but I interact with believers all day long, patients, colleagues etc. I am open about my lack of religion and offer tolerance when treated in kind.

Who made it a sin to accept others who have a different point of view, to tolerate, and try to gain understanding? Oh, wait, it's George Bush, the GOP, and the radical fundamentalist base. Sorry, I forgot........ ;)

[hunter]

27. There's a great story by Harlan Ellison...

...Go Towards the Light. It's a story about a Jewish scientist skeptical of God who performs a miracle to demonstrate that there are no miracles.

I'm sure Ellison first concieved the story as a cynical stick-in-the-eye towards people of faith, but that's not the way things turned out. Instead it has been adopted by many faithful as an illustration of what faith might mean. The story works both ways depending how you read it -- as an expression of skepticism, or as an expression of faith.

There are many stories in the Bible that express this same sort of duality, but many Christians are loathe to see it. Instead they grasp for the easy answers.

[lvx35]

38. Whose to say God is not working through you hands...

While you're jerking off??? Maybe that is God's plan for you life ;)

Seriously though, the thing about religion/spirituality is that its such an inner thing that if you don't get it, you don't get it, and there's not a lot somebody can point to make you get it. I theological terms, if God wanted you to know, you would. IF he wanted you to get it only if you did such and such, that's the only way you would get it. You can't get an understanding of God any way but by going inside and trying to get in touch with something higher than you!

[FM Arouet666]

40. Jerking off is god's plan for me. Damn, thanks lord.

"If god wanted you to know, you would." If this statement is true then sinners, homosexuals, atheists exist because god has chosen them to exist that way. If this is the case, what business is it of christians to attack others which do not follow the lords word. After all, god made them disbelievers, to attack them is to attack an act of god.