Would Jesus forgive Satan?

[Zhade]

Okay, bear with me (and this is a serious question I've pondered for years, even though I don't believe in any of this): if Satan were to repent, would Jesus have to forgive him?

What would that do to the whole Yahweh/Jesus/Satan construct? Would Yahweh also forgive Satan? How would the whole "battle for souls" thing be affected? Wouldn't major parts of "prophecy" suddenly be wrong?

I recalled this question while reading the thread on D&D, so think of it as an exercise in critical thinking and imagination. The question is asked in good faith.

So, how about it? Would Satan's redemption spell the end of the need for salvation, since sin is allegedly tied to Satan's influence?

Just wondering what the Christians in the house think, if you're the type of Christian who believes in Satan and all that.

[CanuckAmok]

1. Well, for one thing, it would put Ozzy Osbourne out of work.

...

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Yep, bad for the economy for sure. n/t

[purduejake]

3. Too late...

He's already dead.

I don't claim to be Christian or believe in Satan, but I was raised Catholic and that is what I was taught.

[Zhade]

12. Er...Satan, or Jesus?

Not that I've ever been convinced either ever existed, mind you.

[purduejake]

17. Satan.

I was taught when you go to hell, it is forever no matter how sorry you are. Just make sure you go to confession before you die. I no longer subscribe to the beliefs, but that is what I was taught being raised Catholic.

[Dunvegan]

4. The Great Satan is no longer a religious construct...

...it is now any country you want to go to war with or undermine.

[TheWraith]

5. You're riding the line between theology and philosopy.

There's one school of thought that says evil isn't so much a thing in itself as it is a nothing--the absence of good, as darkness is the absence of light. In that case, if the king of all evil were to repent, then there would still end up being evil somewhere, because it's not meant to be eliminated, it's meant to be opposed.

As to your original question, I don't have a good answer. I don't think forgiveness would HAVE to be extended, since if it were mandatory it wouldn't really be forgiveness. Would it be possible? That I don't know.

[papau]

10. Well said :-)

:-)

[aquart]

6. huh. if satan repents and ceases to do evil.......then evil ceases, yes?

in which case, if jesus refuses to forgive, then it is jesus who continues evil in the world...no?

[W_HAMILTON]

7. No clue

But it makes for one of those great philosophical, hypothetical questions :)

[Orrex]

14. No

Satan/Lucifer/Old Scratch/Whoever is the posterchild of evil but is not the source of evil. Evil comes about through rejection of or defiance of God's desire, and this can be undertaken by anyone with free will.

However, Satan will not sincerely repent (as I understand the story) because Satan is not sorry for his sin.

[aquart]

16. The defiance of God's desire?

So human sacrifice is good if God desires it? Which was the story of Abraham and Isaac, after all.

[Orrex]

18. Yes

Assuming that God is the source of goodness (as I mentioned in Post #15), then on what possible basis can you judge him to be not-good? At most, you can say that his actions conflict with your notion of goodness, but that's like saying "this bowling ball fell on my toe, so that conflicts with my notion of gravity."

Don't get me wrong--as far as I'm concerned the bible is a fairytale from start to finish. But if we're pursuing the implications of the philosophical good/evil question, then we have to address it on its terms.

[Zebedeo]

20. Agreed

Everything in your post is exactly correct.

[tomg]

8. If I recall, this is a question that a

number of theologians have considered. These are some that I recall, but I could be way off. First for one of the non-answers. According to some scholastics, spirits are unlike humans in that they have fixed natures. In short, Satan, having chosen once, is fixed to that choice. That becomes Satan's nature. That hits me as pretty bogus, even for the scholastics. I think Milton in Paradise Lost seems to suggest that - and Milton scholars can rip me a new one on this - damnation is a continuous choice: "I myself am hell." Satan, by his actions to bring others to evil, keeps digging his own pit deeper and deeper and, in a sense, gets off on it, which means he keeps doing evil. While it is more interesting, it really doesn't address your question. Still others say that before one can be "forgiven" there must be recognition of one's evil and a desire to do the good for itself and in and of itself. Did you ever see the original "Bedazzled" with Robin Cooke and Dudley Moore where Cooke as Satan gives Dudley as Stanley his soul back, goes to heaven ( they used the Royal Botaniocal Gardens as the set - its hilarious) and is told he does the right thing for the wrong reason so he doesn't get back in. In this case, if, say, Satan was really sorry for his part in the last few thousand years and really copped to it, regardless of whether God is going to give him a pass back in, and really show remorse, then, to an extent, whatever God or Jesus or whomever,decides is pretty much irrelevant. I mean, Satan could very well be stuck in the Inferno for eternity, but that is a different issue. In that instance, it becomes the interior state of the individual that matters and, if we think of humans for a moment, you can only be "forgiven" by those you have harmed, and even then, the act of "forgiving" is related back to the offended party. It simply puts the animosity to rest on both sides. So we have to ask "who has Satan harmed." God? humans? himself?


As far as the other things go - salvation, whether there is still evil if Satan and all that -my take is that humans still have free will. I would imagine that we would probably screw up just as much as we always do.

Incidentally, I personally do not believe in Satan ( who makes his first appearance as Adversary in the Book of Job,is not evil -in our sense- and is borrowed from Zoroastrianism, the court religion of Persia along with heaven, hell, the last judgement, the apocalypse, the Messiah. In fact, most fundamentalists are probably Zoroastrians of a sort, hence their Manichean view of the world). I also drift in and out of Catholicism - right now I have drifted out. Well, this is just my take on it, and it is a fascinating question, as much for me because of the issues of what constitutes forgiveness and remorse as anything else.

[LaurenG]

9. This begs another question - who made evil?

If God created everything then I would suppose that he also created that which is "evil". If this is true, and we are taught that God knows everything, he must have known that evil would get out of control. With that said, why would an intelligent being who loves his creation not work in a couple of loop holes to get the team all working together? I'd say that yes (my belief here) if satan decided he really didn't like being separate from the whole there would be an option to "forgive" him.

I am not fond of the idea of saved and unsaved. After all, all religions think their version is the only way to get there. What a travesty that something that is rumored to be based on love would cause so much harm and hate.

In my studies I have found that "the only way to the father is through me" - means: If you want to be enlightened then you're going to have to work on yourself until you realize that you are made up of the same energy as God. If you can't get there this time you get to repeat the lessons later. (very simplified version) Anyway the Christ is the energy that Jesus tapped into and Jesus said this and much more will you do as well. So I guess if I were God I'd want to work it out so that people could get as much time as they needed to get it together, including satan.

[Orrex]

15. Evil is not a thing; it's the absence of a thing

God created goodness, and evil is the absence of it.

To say that God created evil is the same as saying that God created the absence of the universe when he created the universe. It's similar to the (incorrect) argument that atheism is a religion.

Regarding this bit:
In my studies I have found that "the only way to the father is through me" - means: If you want to be enlightened then you're going to have to work on yourself until you realize that you are made up of the same energy as God. If you can't get there this time you get to repeat the lessons later. (very simplified version) Anyway the Christ is the energy that Jesus tapped into and Jesus said this and much more will you do as well. So I guess if I were God I'd want to work it out so that people could get as much time as they needed to get it together, including satan.

Check out Read Philip K Dick's Valis, in which he explores a very similar notion. The Transmigration of Timothy Archer and Radio Free Albemuth are also worth a look. I'm not a big fan of The Divine Invasion, but it examines a similar scenario, as well.

[LaurenG]

19. If as above so below is a true statement

and we add the analogy of the light as in God is light then your theory can't hold water. If we were to turn on the light in a darkened room (and God is Good and God is the light) then the darkness disappears when we flip the switch. There may be dark objects yet there is light encompassing the darkness, so in fact there is no darkness in the presence of light or God. Wherever that light is the darkness disappears. If we assume that God made everything how could he stop short at the "dark edge" when he is omnipresent and omnipotent (also a Christian teaching).

Also, when God created satan - satan was of the light He evidenty became arrogant and God tossed him out. In the Christian interpretation of the Bible Lucifer and Satan are the same entity (interchanageable)so I'd say we either have a jealous God or the story was a set up. Lucifer definately provided a service to God if for no other reason than to create a dichotomy so that there was a way to percieve a higher order from a lower one. It is very possible that good and evil are initially from the same place. I can only guess as I have no way to prove my point other than simple experiments using higher level principles.

[Orrex]

23. You're playing on an equivocation there, perhaps unintentionally

If as above so below is a true statement and we add the analogy of the light as in God is light then your theory can't hold water.

"As above, so below" is a Hermetic principle to which I do not adhere, except maybe as a metaphor. It provides little basis for reasoning in this context unless we accept its tenet that what we see reflects what is of a "higher" order of existence. I see no cause to support this conclusion.

If we were to turn on the light in a darkened room (and God is Good and God is the light) then the darkness disappears when we flip the switch. There may be dark objects yet there is light encompassing the darkness, so in fact there is no darkness in the presence of light or God. Wherever that light is the darkness disappears.

"God is the light" doesn't mean that "God is a zillion-watt halogen." It means that God is the source of divine "light" or grace or enlightenment or what-have-you.

However, if you want to maintain the image of the "goodness lightswitch," then I submit that the dark is not destroyed when the light is turned on; it's merely suppressed or overpowered by the light. But turn the switch back off again, and there's your darkness right were you left it.

God doesn't go where he isn't wanted. That is, he won't force himself into your heart because that would violate free will. If you choose to reject him, then you have "created" a "space" where he does not exist. That "space" is evil.

If we assume that God made everything how could he stop short at the "dark edge" when he is omnipresent and omnipotent (also a Christian teaching).

You're also arguing for a form of pantheism in which God is synonymous with the universe. If that's your assumption, then nothing exists that is not part of God, so the whole question is academic. That is, no one really suffers because all are part of God.

satan was of the light He evidently became arrogant and God tossed him out. In the Christian interpretation of the Bible Lucifer and Satan are the same entity (interchanageable)so I'd say we either have a jealous God or the story was a set up.

Well, of course he's a jealous God! That's straight from Deuteronomy 5.9, isn't it? But the presumption is that Lucifer defied God's will and was therefore cast out. Rather than implying a setup, this could mean that God set a rule and then, for the rule to have any meaning, he had to enforce it.

Lucifer definately provided a service to God if for no other reason than to create a dichotomy so that there was a way to percieve a higher order from a lower one.

I'll concur on that point. Salvation is of no value if it is guaranteed.

==================================

Gee, this is kind of fun. If I weren't an atheist, I'd definitely want to be a theologian.

[LaurenG]

28. Well perhaps I am playing on an equivocation because

that is how my my own mind works.

I truly feel that all doctrines have truths in them so I have a difficult time staying within the boundaries of one. I can find pieces of each that all say the same thing or allude to the same thing which would make me confusing to read/listen to.

The very bottom line is I do believe that "energy" in whatever form or by whatever name it goes by, created it all. I also believe that there was no beginning and there is no end, I think time is just a measure of physicality. Certain religions hint that when this world was created, THEY saw that it was good etc. So who are THEY. I'll say THEY is us. At least us in another form. That is only a theory but it's where I am finding a connection that makes more sense.

You're also arguing for a form of pantheism in which God is synonymous with the universe. If that's your assumption, then nothing exists that is not part of God, so the whole question is academic. That is, no one really suffers because all are part of God.

Yes on this one I am arguing that God (energy, etc) is synonymous with all that is. That I do believe.

Well, of course he's a jealous God! That's straight from Deuteronomy 5.9, isn't it? But the presumption is that Lucifer defied God's will and was therefore cast out. Rather than implying a setup, this could mean that God set a rule and then, for the rule to have any meaning, he had to enforce it.

I have trouble with this because in the new testament God seems to change his tune. He becomes more Godlike with fewer negative human emotions. I would go for the new testament God as a more realistic attitude for a loving God.

FYI, I recently read that many theologians have discovered they are atheists, at least those in academia. :)

[Feenicks]

29. It is NEVER too late, Orrex;-)

Gee, this is kind of fun. If I weren't an atheist, I'd definitely want to be a theologian.

lol, Thanks for making my day! :bounce:

[Orrex]

32. I was wondering when you'd show up

I can talk the talk just fine. It's the "walking" part that trips me up. In matters of Faith, that whole pesky "belief" thing always gets in my way.

[Feenicks]

33. Nonsense, I'll bet

you "walk the walk" as well (meaning, acting as a good and moral person).

The "faith" part is merely the icing on the cake! That simply gives hope, strength and meaning. What's wrong with having those? :)

[Orrex]

51. Hey, what happened to Feenicks?

I tried to PM him and was told that there's "no such user." Did I imagine him?

[papau]

11. Thanks for starting a great thread! :-)

:-)

[Zhade]

13. It's actually very interesting reading.

Thanks to all for the responses.

[Zebedeo]

21. Satan is not a human being

God has made no promises of salvation to Satan -- at least none revealed in Scripture.

God's promise is made to mankind, not to fallen angels like Satan.

There is thus no reason to believe that Satan can be "redeemed."

Also, as Orrex mentioned above, evil (rebellion against God) would likely still exist, because people still would have free will and the ability to rebel.

An interesting question, though.

[aquart]

24. See, this is where I run into problems.

And I'm basing my thinking on an early run-in with Milton who annoyed the bejesus out of me.

Cause what I got out of the required reading passages of Paradise Lost was that God was sending His Only Begotten Son to redeem the generations which had multiplied since Adam's nasty sin. And I thought, How nice. Everybody before Jesus is a stir fry in hell but now God is going to forgive the descendants, the DESCENDANTS of the poor schnook who pissed him off in the first place. How impressed am I by that magnanimity? Less than I should be, it seems.

Think about it, here's God graciously forgiving people who DID NOT DO IT. By virtue of being born, they come into the world burdened by what someone else did milleniums ago. On whose orders? God's orders. So now God is going to let them off the hook for what they never did by making them jump thru a whole new fun set of hoops? Thanks so much.

But when it comes to Satan, who DID do the crime he was branded with, no forgiveness, no options out. Nothing.

Forgive the guys who didn't do nuttin', but don't forgive the one who actually did sumpin'.

To me, if God is sincere about forgiving, forgiveness has to go to the one who did the crime. Or it's crap.

I will add that, shortly after thinking these very thoughts, I came down with mononucleosis. Coincidence?

[Zebedeo]

26. You don't understand original sin

I will add that, shortly after thinking these very thoughts, I came down with mononucleosis. Coincidence?

You know how people say "lol" but they aren't really laughing out loud? Well, you really made me laugh out loud - for real. Not at you, but with you, brother.

Your post reveals that you do not understand original sin. We are not blamed for Adam's sin. Rather, his sinful nature is inherited by us. We are to blame, just the same as Adam. If we had been in the Garden, we would have disobeyed God just like he and Eve did.

Besides, it's not just original sin that God forgives, but daily sins that we commit. Don't tell me you haven't sinned and are therefore not guilty yourself! :rofl: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone! We all are guilty. So the forgiveness that God offers is not "crap." It is the greatest gift ever given. :)

Seriously, get well soon!

[aquart]

27. The mono was some time ago.

Again, this sins of the fathers remains a big heaping pile of crap to me.

The more I considered it, the more I came to believe that it wasn't that we needed God to forgive us, but we needed to forgive God, and this was the way we found to do it. This was the way that made us feel a measure of control in our own hands.

After all, what was that terrible original sin? We wanted to know, and we wanted to live.

I understand the concept of original sin. I'm simply appalled by it.

[Withywindle]

34. Yes, this is where I run into big problems...

...the non-Christian butts in. :)

I have no problem believing in God (though I too do it in a rather pantheist way). I have no problem believing in Jesus as an aspect of God in human flesh who came to earth to help people, whether by his message or by his example or by his spiritual blessing or all of the above.

What I DO have a problem believing in, is the nostalgia inherent in the story of the Fall and original sin. I simply do not believe that we, as humans, ever had a perfection or an innocence of some kind that we somehow lost. I hope that we as a species are growing kinder and wiser on the whole. I accept the likelihood that we're probably staying about the same. I don't think we were likely ever any "better" though.

And even in the story of Eden, the curiosity and susceptibility that "brought us down" seems so hardwired in our very natures--it's integral to our best qualities as a species too--that the whole thing, if taken at face value, just REEKS of a setup. :) Therefore, the possibility MUST exist for any of the players involved to be forgiven, since everyone, including Satan, was only acting out the parts that God MUST have always known they would play.

[aquart]

43. Yup.

Although mostly I just prefer a good cuddle with string theory. I don't understand it, but the level of comfort it provides me is simply inexplicable except in terms of faith.

[Goblinmonger]

30. So god plays favorites?

God must have made the angels the same as he made humans.

He will forgive humans but not angels? Why the special accord given to humans? If Satan professed his love of god and repented for the "rebellion," why wouldn't god provide the same thing you claim he offers to you?

[Zebedeo]

35. God made the angels, including Satan

However, angels are not humans. They are far, far superior beings (at least in the sense of being "strong" or "able"). Being so vastly superior, angels have a much greater ability to obey God, and not through weakness of the flesh fall to temptation.

So it makes sense to me that Satan would not be promised the salvation through Christ that humans are promised.

But that is an issue between God and Satan. It is certainly not my place to offer suggestions to God as to how the matter should be handled. He will handle it in His way, which will be the best way. I am sure of that.

[Goblinmonger]

42. Well, I guess I don't know what to say

because first you say this in post 21:

God's promise is made to mankind, not to fallen angels like Satan.

and then you say this in the post immediately above:

But that is an issue between God and Satan. It is certainly not my place to offer suggestions to God as to how the matter should be handled.

Do you see how the post above can be in complete contradiction to this conclusion from 21:

There is thus no reason to believe that Satan can be "redeemed."

And then just to keep my head spinning you toss in this little ditty:

They are far, far superior beings (at least in the sense of being "strong" or "able"). Being so vastly superior, angels have a much greater ability to obey God, and not through weakness of the flesh fall to temptation.

So why did god make us so inferior if he is flawless? Are we his failed little science experiment? Were we like TV for god and the angels--entertainment?

Which leads me to the original question since you are such a moving target: So god plays favorites between his two created creatures? Angels get the shaft on redemtion because they are somehow better than us? Sounds like some older child complex you read about in psych class.

[beam me up scottie]

44. Wait! I think I hear something...

shhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Zebedeo]

47. Now wait a minute

There is nothing inconsistent in what I posted above. I said in my first post:

God has made no promises of salvation to Satan -- at least none revealed in Scripture.

God's promise is made to mankind, not to fallen angels like Satan.

There is thus no reason to believe that Satan can be "redeemed."

I did not say that I somehow "know" that God will not forgive Satan. (However, the Book of Revelation certainly does not foretell any such thing happening.) All I said is that there is no promise of salvation to Satan revealed in Scripture and that therefore there is no reason to believe that Satan can be redeemed.

So there is no "moving target" here. My posts above are consistent.

Now you ask:

So why did god make us so inferior if he is flawless? Are we his failed little science experiment? Were we like TV for god and the angels--entertainment?

You could as easily ask why God made any of His creations. He made all creatures, great and small. They are wondrous to behold; don't you agree? There is no doubt that some creatures are weaker than others. Humans are a special case -- weak and easily tempted, but still able to freely choose God and receive His forgiveness and His protection from the Devil. I believe that God made humans the way they are because He loves us and wants to offer us His forgiveness. By creating mankind, God gained billions of beings who love Him and whom He loves. To me, it is not hard to understand why the Creator of the Universe would want others to share His home with Him. By making us weak and subject to temptation, He is able to surround Himself with those who freely choose Him, either by obeying all His Commandments all the time (not so easy), or by receiving His forgiveness and mercy by accepting Jesus' sacrifice to pay for their sins (a gift that He makes readily available to anyone who would accept it).

Which leads me to the original question since you are such a moving target: So god plays favorites between his two created creatures? Angels get the shaft on redemtion because they are somehow better than us? Sounds like some older child complex you read about in psych class.

Not a moving target. See above.
TWO created creatures??? I think there are a lot more than that! I believe that God loves the angels who are faithful to Him. He loves mankind also, and since mankind is so much weaker, He gives us a break. Nothing wrong with that, I would say. Kinda like installing curb cuts and ramps in public streets and public buildings so those in wheelchairs can have access. They are less able to go up stairs, so we make things easier for them. Yes, in this analogy, humans are the handicapped.

I don't see it as angels "getting the shaft" on redemption. Angels, as I see it, are much more able to avoid falling in the first place, so they don't need any special dispensation. Humans, on the other hand, need help.

And I never took a psych class, so that can't be it. :)

[Goblinmonger]

49. So god is kind of like

that parent that keeps giving money to their crackhead son even though the son just keeps spending it on the rock while not giving any money to the other son that has led a good life and is able to stay away from addicting substances. If I was an angel, I'd be pissed (watch Dogma for a more detailed--and more humorous--discussion of this if you haven't already).

[Zebedeo]

50. Some angels ARE pissed

They're called demons.

[Goblinmonger]

53. This is sounding more and more like a dysfunctional family

Dad gets a divorce and remarries. He treats his first, well-behaved children very poorly. He treats his new, ill-behaved children very well. First children get pissed and say it isn't fair. Dad kicks them out and has nothing to do with them any more.

That is god. You think that is someone worthy of praise. Yikes.

[Zebedeo]

54. That's a strange way of looking at it

It sure isn't the way I see it. I like my curbcut analogy alot better. But I guess our different ways of looking at it explain why I worship God and you don't.

Good luck to you in any event. :)

[Goblinmonger]

55. You can believe what ever you want

I am fine with that.

But a couple things about this line of yours:

our different ways of looking at it explain why I worship God and you don't

1. The fact that I am an atheist is not just because of my disfunctional family analogy
2. It isn't as simple as "I worship God and you don't." There is no god. That is where I am at. Please don't confuse my atheism with a position of "I know there is a god but I just choose to not worship him." For me, discussing Satan is no different than discussing The Great Gatsby, with the exception that Gatsby is better literature.
3. My way of looking at it has come subsequent to my realization that there is no god.

Good luck to you, too.

[rug]

22. The answer is Satan would not want forgiveness.

[aquart]

25. So what?

Is Satan the one calling the shots? Is forgiveness really based on what the offender does? Is that one more thing a criminal controls? If someone commits a crime against me, must I hate him forever because HE has no regrets? Isn't forgiving MY choice?

So if it is MY choice to forgive one who has sinned against me, is it not GOD's choice whether or not to forgive Satan, not Satan's?

[rug]

36. To be forgiven is a matter of free will.

Classic theology holds Satan chose to turn away. You seem to hold the view that God damns, and therefore can undamn. The question is not whether God would forgive. He must. It's an attribute of God. If Satan does not accept it, there can be no forgiveness.

[Goblinmonger]

41. So your answer to the OP is "Yes"

If Satan repented, God would forgive him.

[rug]

45. Yes, but Satan wouldn't repent.

[Goblinmonger]

31. How do you know?

I agree with you, but my reason for saying this is that Satan is a literary construct to represent pure evil as a foil to our (hopefully) good actions in the eyes of organized relgion. In other words, you gotta give something to keep down the masses so why not create hell.

But my atheism aside, what insight do you have into the "minds" of angels that gives you such great knowledge as to what Satan would "want." Maybe he's sick and tired of living and hell and realizes he shouldn't have pissed god off with his rebellion.

[rug]

37. Because that's the nature of Satan.

Whether it's a theological or literary construct, what makes Satan Satan is his turning away. If he falters, wobbles or turns back, he's simply a Greek myth.

The choice to leave, given what he knew, defines him. Nothing that happened subsequently would add to the knowledge he possessed at the moment of his choice.

So if he accepted forgiveness, he simply wouldn't be Satan.

[Goblinmonger]

38. Sorry for not knowing this, my head is still spinning a bit

Is Satan real or not? If he isn't, then the question is moot (which is my point). If he is, then how do you know what is in his nature (which is also my point). It seems to me that you are saying he is real but he is social a literary construct as to be predictable. Hence the head spinning.

[rug]

39. Damned if I know.

[Goblinmonger]

40. I was asking for your position on it

You seem to be arguing both sides of that fence and I just wanted to nail down a position so I knew how to respond.

[rug]

46. I'm Catholic so I must accept Satan with the rest of it.

Assuming there is God, and assuming Lucifer turned from God, to willingly and knowingly make that choice, there can be nothing else to cause him to returm. God doesn't change so there is nothing to reconsider.

Now if Satan and God are simply literary concepts, the same holds. The closest I can come to it is Ahab. Is it possible he would ever stop hunting Moby Dick? Is Ahab ever likely to change?

As to God, forgiveness in its essence is a welcome, greeting the returned. Rushing to meet the prodigal son. If the prodigal does not return, who is there to welcome, who is there to forgive?

God by nature welcomes. If Satan does not return, it doesn't change the welcoming nature of God.

So, yes, God would forgive, but it won't happen.

If someone is an atheist, none of this matters, although it still makes striking literature.

[H2O Man]

48. One might begin

by examining what defines "satan" in the gospels. First we have the example of Jesus going into the desert for a period of 40 days. Of course, in bibical writings, the 40 days has symbolic meaning. Being in the desert does, too. It means he went to meditate in the desert, but it also implies he was going deep inside himself, where no other person could venture.

There, he confronted "satan." Yet when we look closely, he confronts his own demons: the temptation for worldly power, riches, a kingdom, and the temptation to "test" God. There is nothing in these descriptions that should indicate to a mature reader that "satan" is outside of Jesus. It was the inner temptations.

Second, there is the story of Jesus preparing his disciples for his death before he enters the city. Peter says, "No, we will not allow this to happen." Jesus turns on him, and says, "Satan, get ye behind me!" This is another valid description of "satan" .... the mixing of doctrines. Peter had confused Jesus's teachings/meaning from the higher level, with those of the lower level, or worldly order. In the great religious teachings from around the globe, throughout time, the mixing of doctrines is viewed as a stumbling block to enlightenment.

The idea of "satan" as a red demon with a pitch fork and horns is surely an immature image, and one that can be applied more readily to the less insightful than to Jesus.

[Goblinmonger]

52. It might be immature

but it is certainly a significant image in current Christianity. Born Again Christians believe in a physical satan. There are progressive on this thread that have said that satan is a real being. Catholics believe in a physical satan. I can only imagine what would have happened if one of the standard vocal atheists would have made your comment.

[H2O Man]

56. It certainly is true

that many people believe in a literal satan. Many children believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. However, because the OP was offered as a serious question, by a serious person, I opted for a serious answer. "What would have happened if...." is of no consequence.

[supernova]

57. Where?

There are progressive on this thread that have said that satan is a real being.

Depends on what you mean by "progressive." Here it can have two meanings. "Progressive" can mean politically liberal, as most of us at DU are. There are also theological "progressives," meaning we don't hold to what one would normally think of as orthodox, or even standard, traditional doctrine, the idea of satan being one of them.

Personally, I'm both theologically and politically liberal, so no I don't believe in the traditional Satan. I think, in the Literature, he's simply a personification of all of our collective human weaknesses and flaws, the ID run amok, if you prefer. I don't think he's a red guy with cloven hooves, horns, and a pitchfork overseeing some demon dimension of never-ending physical torment. I can think of worse fates one could suffer than that.

Having, said that, in the pantheon he is an angel who rebels against God, or accepts the challenge of creating the concept of "evil" as a service and contrast to God. Just because they don't get along doesn't mean they don't love each other, IOW. It think that's an important aspect of Lucifer that some people miss.

I think of it as kinda being the flip side of love. And Satan is not entirely useless. He/it can make you think about the consequences of actions, exactly *why* you wish to do something not quite on the up and up, and the true nature of evil. All of those things are worth knowing and exploring as we get older.

[JVS]

58. Satan would never repent, so it's a non-issue