I for one am getting quite turned off by all this religion-bashing

[BushOut06]

And particularly the Christian-bashing that tends to happen on this board with increasing frequency. We are supposed to be the tolerant ones here! Yet I get the feeling that there are some who would love nothing more than to round up anyone who dares to profess any sort of Christian leanings and banish us from society for good. People want to blame an entire religion for the acts of a few. I'm sick of people who will defend Islam against charges that it's a violent religion, saying that the actions of a few do not represent the majority - then turn around and slam Christians because a very vocal minority makes asses out of themselves.

I understand that there are plenty of athiests on this board. I respect your beliefs. At the same time, please respect ours as well. Yes, it is possible to be Christian (or Muslim or Jewish) and still have tolerance for other people. Most of us believe in what Christ taught, that we should not judge anyone ourselves, and that we should love our neighbor as ourself. Most of us aren't out there proseletyzing, calling down hellfire upon sinners, none of that shit. And if someone does, then by all means - go after them. I have no problem with criticizing those who use Christianity as a tool to further their own agendas, or who try to use religion to instill fear in others. But please - don't lump us all in the same boat.

[Thtwudbeme]

1. Well...I hope you read my post to you in that thread

and didn't think I was bashing you.

[BushOut06]

3. I don't really have a problem with that

Honest, sincere observations like that are fine. But I have noticed posts on this board from some that tend to be outright attacks on religion itself.

[seabeyond]

15. what if they are gay or woman. and religion is telling them they are

going to hell. they are evil. they are not human. are you telling me these people dont have the right to be angry. how absurd. take responsibility for your religion. (and mine) we must get beyond being offended cause we are assholes

[Thtwudbeme]

18. I am

I am in my fourth year of studying religion with plans for Divinity School.

Stephanie

[seabeyond]

27. cool for you. love religion all religion..... all that allows us to

e in the higher,..... and it isnt just religion, it is other things. we have been provided so many ways to see. i have since a child, sat in many different. so interesting. i will always be interested in what you have to say

[Thtwudbeme]

38. Oh, don't do that!

Believe me, there are TONS of people on DU that have me on "ignore!" (I have been here since the beginning)

It's really fascinating; this semester I am concentrating on Native American Religion---that keeps me sane while I am trying to understand ALL those STUPID HATEFUL verb tenses in Latin while dealing with a Latin Prof. who thinks that if it didnt' happen before Rome fell, it's not worth talking about! Except Bobby Kennedy. She adores Bobby Kennedy.

;)

[seabeyond]

47. ooooh.... i so have gotten into native american i just love it

have bought boys books so they can sit in the myth and belief of it. the value of life. have a native american handmade flute. live in the west, and open, love the native american energy in new mexico. high desert

cool for you. i hear you


the really funny, i can see the same thing said time and again, regardless. and i am talking bible, nature, children, native american, mayan, the sun/son, sound, dance .. not big on eastern, i just like the energy of the west.... but the others too, hindu, buddha. all the same. all good

[Rich Hunt]

186. some of these people go WAY too far

I consider myself a 'skeptic', but some self-styled skeptics and agnostics misrepresent
the skeptical position when they imply that the Bible and other religious texts are
just a bunch of garbage, that religion has never served any positive purpose, and that
we should just bury all of it, never studying it, never appreciating it. I don't practice
any religion, and yet I have a great appreciation for the teachings of different faiths.
I -hate- when they repeat that the Bible is 'a bunch of fairy tales' like a bunch of
programmed bots. Do they think the ethics are a bunch of 'fairy tales', too?
Given their lack of respect for people, and their ostensible goal of playing 'divide and
conquer' and being generally un-civil and unengaging, that might be the case.

Not everyone on the far right or fascist right is friendly to Christianity - far from it.
There is a streak of nihilism that is growing on the far right. They don't like the
Christian ethics of engagement or witness, or of 'doing unto others', concern for
the less fortunate, the underdogs, etc. Some fascists I've dealt with think that Christians
'coddle' blacks too much. Remember this.

Seems to me to be a militantly anti-scholarly, anti-knowledge position, and I sometimes
wonder if those people aren't just posting disinfo to make skeptics, atheists and
agnostics look bad.

[BushOut06]

32. Is that the real problem? Or how so-called christians abuse it?

There are lots of things that the Bible preaches against. Pride, gluttony, lust, etc. Yet I don't see these so-called Christians urging discrimination against fat people - I'd be in trouble if they did. Yes, it's true that the Bible teaches against homosexuality - but it also tells us NOT to judge anyone ourselves. I figure it's best to let God take care of it.

These so-called Christians who are out there saying that gays are going to hell are in direct violation of Christ's teachings. Discrimination is also against his teachings, as we are to treat others the way we want to be treated ourselves.

[seabeyond]

43. realizing does no good if laws are being passed to criminalize

our humanness in the name of the lord. hell ya, that is what is happening, for a pharmacist telling me i cannot have a pill cause he is offended. so he is going to honor his religious rules and dictate what i do....... no. it is his sacrifice not mine. if he cannot morally give me that pill, he scarifies his job nad gets one he can do that goes with HIS religion.

of course it is the hypocrisy, in your face hypocrisy. i have more people quote the bible to me. i know hands down what the bible is say. they cannot preach and validate love. cause ultimately that is not the purity of our religion, or the bible or jesus. it is easy to argue the hypocrisy down. no one can win.... when they chose hate over love.

but law is being passed. so all that doesn't matter. we need to stop it in the name of the lord and our responsibility to fellow man. our christian duty

[BushOut06]

56. you don't need religion to pass bad laws - n/t

[seabeyond]

60. i WILL not deny that we are using religion to pass laws

that are abusing my fllellow man. what trash that you would try to walk away from what is happening. when bad law is being passed, that has nothing to do with religion, then religion will not be part of the argument

[BushOut06]

96. where did you see me defending these laws?

What you do you mean 'what trash you would walk away from what is happening'? How do you get that from what I've said here and in the past? I've always stood up to these laws, I've protested them, I've said how they are wrong. It is WRONG for anyone to try to enforce their religious views on society through. I don't know quite what you expect me to do here.

[seabeyond]

101. you dont need religion..... that is shifting argument from

religion to share blame of bad law on other stuff. i just dont go for that and call it. that is a totally useless point right now, for me

example. when i argue republican corruption i get, ... both parties do it. well, no they dont firstly. but..... i am not talking dem. i amtalking repug. i am not going to stop trying to resolve, or battle, cause dems d it too. dems arent in power. dems arent passing law. dems arent abusing. it is the repug

that is all

[BushOut06]

112. That's not what I meant

The people in power using religion as a tool to maintain power - if religion weren't around, they would find some other rationale to control people.

[seabeyond]

114. i dont care. i really dont care. here you are doing it again

when they use other means to abuse power i will address that. right now they use religion. so that is what i amfighting. religion.... and the abuse of..... in the name of the lord

[BushOut06]

116. and here you are again...

It's the USE of the religion, not the religion itself that you keep attacking.

Let's look at a "peaceful" religion - Buddhism, for example. There isn't much of a problem with Buddhists right now. But if some fanatical Buddhist were to start using religion as a basis for imposing a set of beliefs on the general public, that would be a problem, woudln't it? But the problem would be with the USE of Buddhism, not Buddhism itself.

[seabeyond]

119. this is a given. anytime man puts his desire want in front

with agenda you will have abuse of religion. i agree. yes i am attacking man that is abusing religion. yes i am

[AbbyR]

181. Going after the wrong thing, maybe?

"when they use other means to abuse power i will address that. right now they use religion. so that is what i amfighting. religion.... and the abuse of..... in the name of the lord"

Wouldn't it make more sense to go after the wrong-headed practitioners of the religion rather than the religion itself? Just wondering.

[seabeyond]

183. but i dont go after religion. i dont go after the sheep. i go after the

ministers that using the bible abuse their power, and manipulate their people, taking them off the path of christ. what is in a religion. if one stayed in the purity of religion, all is fine. it is mans interpretation that fucks it up. they are standing on our senate floor adn rep floor using quotes of the bible to pass law...... that is what i go after. why do you think otherwise. where have i attacked religion. i put ownership of what we create on people, not a theory

[JerseygirlCT]

61. You do understand that that crap is NOT

universally accepted in Christianity, don't you?

[seabeyond]

66. yes. and minority has laws being passed as we speak enforcing these

beliefs on the majority. and i call bullshit

[JerseygirlCT]

136. Call it!

But point the finger at the bull-shitters, not at everyone.

[seabeyond]

137. i beg your pardon. and you are seeing me point at all

i dont believe, you will find that with my posts at all. we each have our role we are playing, we are all a part.....

[AbbyR]

177. All Christians don't gay-bash

Me, for one. The United Methodist Church, for another. I'm sure that there are many others, just as there are many Catholic women who used birth control.

Don't paint us all with same brush. We come in lots of colors, sizes and beliefs.

[seabeyond]

180. of course they dont. i am a little dsiappointed though

that you wouldnt understand that i am talking about the christians that do bash gays and are passing laws to discriminate against them. but i will absolutely give you that all christians...... do not bash gays. and hurrah to those that dont. and those that dont are the ones that need to in love challenge their fellow christian that choses to. or at least, that is what i feel. that is what i do. i have two borther in law that are gay. and when a friend tells me they are oging to hell, i just gotta speak out. i feel that is my christian responsibility. but then i can only talk for myself.

[frankly_fedup2]

244. The Methodist church welcomes everyone and everyone is with

sin.

[zanne]

25. I have every right to speak against religion itself.

Being a non-religious person, I can point out the ramifications of faith-based politics, greed and prejudice. I can also criticize religion in general. Why not? It's not a "taboo" subject for me. If you think it's hard being a Christian, you should try being an atheist. We aren't exactly "tolerated" in this country, either. We all have to grow thicker skins, I think. Being religious doesn't grant you any immunity from criticism.

[Thtwudbeme]

40. I am married to an athiest

One of the things that I have learned is that you guys have your myths too, and hang onto them just as hard!

;)

[MindPilot]

45. would you mind expanding a bit on what those myths are?

just curious.

[zanne]

46. Yes; please explain the myths we have. nt

[seabeyond]

50. simply believing there is not a universal power

is a belief.

[SidDithers]

54. Disbelief and absence of belief are not the same thing. nt

Sid

[zanne]

62. The same way I believe the sky is blue.

Is that a "belief", too?

[seabeyond]

67. well ... ya .... it really is

but then, i am sure you dont wnat to go into how i see things. lol lol

[zanne]

77. Because you're not "seeing" things....

You're "believing" them. Big difference.

[seabeyond]

78. or.... are you believing that the sky is blue. one never knows

does one

besides, i have seen a lot of yellow andd orange and black and red and purple and pink in the sky to so intellectually if i chose i could argue is the sky blue...... only.

[zanne]

85. Now you're just arguing for the sake of argument.

I know the drill. I'm not going to waste any more of my time.

[seabeyond]

88. yep... but then you could take it into the spiritual

and see...... how we are all one. and why i am arguing, what atheist.... lol lol. i forget where i ma in the thread. beliefs

[Thtwudbeme]

59. Well...for one....that Atheists don't subscribe to myths. That's the

biggie, of course.

My husbands favorite myth is that he uses the same glass for water all day and night--despite me showing him evidence of half filled sweating glasses parked all over the house! (hi honey!)

OK...more seriously...think about the beginning of earth and life as we know it---and what you believe to be good, right and true. Then think about who told you this, and how much you really truly understand about science...do you understand? Are you educated specifically in this field? Have you seen and experienced the "proof" or have you just been "taught" like most of us? There's your "creation myth" right there. If you haven't specifically seen undeniable evidence, then you only have second hand, third hand, or whatever stories, and it is only something that you CHOOSE to believe in--something that someone else has explained to you.

(btw--I am no fundie--don't bother arguing creation and evolution stuff with me; I am beyond that, don't care, and have another Latin test in the morning.)

Almost anything that you have been told that you choose to believe without direct evidence (IE: Is Texas really there if you haven't seen it? Well yes, because you can get in a car and drive up or down a road until you get there---unless you are in a different country---then I would suggest an airplane trip first)...however, you cannot get in a time machine and go back--you just can't---there is a "myth."

[eve_was_framed]

107. people living to 600+ year, burning shrubbery that talks, parting seas...

those are a few myths that come to my mind...

[seabeyond]

49. yup yup yup, lol lol. i have a good atheist frend

so strongly hangs onto his own beliefs, lol lol

[SidDithers]

64. lol lol lol...yup yup yup..

lol, lol

I don't see what's so funny. :shrug:

Sid

[seabeyond]

71. you know why..... it is not a matter of exclusion

it is inclusive. it does not matter in the slightest how someone believes. if they are in love.... it is all the same, one. and all of it is just outside clothing, essence of spirit, or lite or energy,.... love.... it is all one

[SidDithers]

95. For me it's respect...

The attitude of "look at the silly athiest, they say they don't believe, but their non-belief is just a different type of belief" is so prevalent, and yet so wrong.

Respect the fact that in any group of athiests, like any group of Christians, there will be a wide range of beliefs and non-beliefs. And that to claim that all athiests "believe" in something is just as wrong as saying all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin.

Sid

[seabeyond]

110. oh lordy, lol lol lol

to believe in non belief is a beliefs, firstly

secondly, i can easily and willing say, we are all uniquely made and perfectly imperfect.

and third. you are empowered, i cannot do anything to you, unless you allow. unless you say ok. i cannot be disrespectful to you, unless you say,..... i am being disrespectful to you. only if you take it personally. and that is yours to do. which is really a bottom line for this whole conversation. the person that is bothered by the muslim cartoon, or christian bashing, or atheist have beliefs too....

they want and chose to play the game.

so, i empower you by saying.....

if you want

to see it

as disrespectful

i can easily and willingly say, sorry. love you, just as you are. with no desire to create you in anyway. it is all yours to do.

[ProfessorGAC]

123. Your Position Fails The Logic Test

Sorry, but a non-belief is not a belief. The very definitions of them are mutually exclusive. Your wanting it so does not negate the definitions of the words, no matter how convenient that might be.

I'm not an atheist. I'm not a theist. I'm not religious. I don't care one way or the other. Absolutely zero interest or concern! I spend no mental energy on such things, because i simply have no interest.

That's not a belief no matter how hard you wish to spin it.
The Professor

[SidDithers]

130. Thanks for seeing the difference, Professor...

where so many are blind to it. :toast:

Sid

[ProfessorGAC]

131. Blindness and Blindfolds Aren't The Same Thing

One is a handicap. The other is self-induced. Hence, one is completely excusable. The other less so.
The Professor

[seabeyond]

133. ah and now you decide on the blind and blindfold deciding

what is and isnt excusable

hey by the way,..... my belief in god is so massive..... not of any, but all religion, not of bible but of force, energy sound, that allows one. light. stillness. no battle

doesnt fit anywhere... and all places

[ProfessorGAC]

138. The Interpretation Is All Yours

I made no declaration as to which was which. Earlier you said if there is an offense, it is in the mind of the offended. (I'm paraphrasing.) Now you should know how it feels.
The Professor

[seabeyond]

139. but of course i do

why would you assume i am being offended. i am not. truly. for real. dont you believe

[ProfessorGAC]

144. It's Getting To The Point. . .

. . .where i care less than i did before. You are awfully defensive, and you have never addressed the locus of my original point.
The Professor

[seabeyond]

145. you are feeling a defensiveness that isnt there. i promise. lol

why wont you believe. lol. really. that is funny. see how we create another, without really even knowing.

what was you locus of original point. i will focus

[ProfessorGAC]

151. Um. I Cannot Feel Someone Else's Defensiveness

I can only observe it. And i can only observe what is actually there. The locus of my original point is in my first post. Go back and read it.
The Professor

[seabeyond]

157. you are really tellling me, sittin on the internet, that i am defensive

that it is actually there. that you could not be mistaken. regardless of my assuring you i am not defensive, that is not good enough. through the internet .... you know.... you could not be misinterpreting my words, that because you feel, and it is just feel, it isnt observing, you are going off a feel. that you are right, and i am wrong. wow. that is amazing. what else am i?

[ProfessorGAC]

176. Do You Understand The Concept Of Observation?

It would seem you're struggling with it. Your only presence here is the words you post. Those posts are defensive. These are clear and obvious from observation. You are so desperate to be correct that you have dodged point after point, taken or feigned umbrage from three posters on this thread, and reinforced your premise by taking the liberty to define terms that already have perfectly good operational definitions.

Seems pretty defensive to me. It this is the best you can do, stop replying to me, please. This is not a conversation anymore. It's turning into me having to lecture you about analytical thought, logic, & the written word. If that's what you want, send me a check. I'm not doing anymore of it for free.
The Professor

[seabeyond]

178. turning into me having to lecture you .....wow

and you dont see. see.

hm

ok well peace to you brother.

for reals. being sincere. lol

[seabeyond]

132. lol and the belief would be, that if i dont agree with you, i am blind

lol lol lol..... you are funny and cheers to you too.

[SidDithers]

150. You are unable to see the difference between two statements...

1. some atheists believe that God doesn't exist. This is an active belief. It is strong, or explicit, atheism. Some might call it anti-theism.

2. some atheists live their lives with an absence of belief in a deity. This is non-belief. It is sometimes called passive, weak, or implicit atheism.

There is a subtle, but significant, difference between the two statements.

The fact that I believe that you haven't yet recognized that difference has nothing to do with my lack of belief in a deity.

Sid

[seabeyond]

160. i agree with you on that. you are right on, but this is my point

my atheist friend is a non belief in deity,..... but he believes in a universal power, love. which he attributes to lite. but, he does not believe in Deity. in defining atheist without belief or non belief only goes as far as diety,.... i can buy it. i dont have a belief in god per se. i say i am christian, cause i feel christs lite, that is how far it goes. the words christ uses are words i feel. i say i believe in god, cause i feel a universal power. love.... that is about it. evidence has shown in love, it is always win win. no one is hurt. at the point that anyone is hurt, then it wasnt done in hte higher, the purity of love. evidence tells me. is it true, works for me ... all i can say

but i am suggesting that we all have beliefs,..... it has seemed that way, regardless of the person i talk to that doesn't believe in a Deity

but yes i do see what you are talking about in 1 and 2

[Dorian Gray]

166. That's a good point, SidDithers...

and one that I think we should all remember. Both with the Christian and the Athiest (and with the Jew and the Muslim, ad infinitum!), there are varying degrees of belief/non-belief. There are differing points of faith/non-faith. Just as people lump in Agnosticism with Athiesm, they are as different in their ideolgies as Pentecostalists are from Catholics are from Mormons.

So, making lump judgements or statements about anybody's faith or lack of faith just is wrong. We're all guilty of it at times. It's easy to put people in a box and store them away without putting any real effort into learning who or what they truly are.

[SidDithers]

175. Thanks, Dorian Gray...

The way I see it a persons faith, belief, non-belief, whatever, is like their fingerprint. Every individual has their own imprint, and it is never exactly the same as that of anyone else.

I'm glad to see we're on the same page :)

Sid

[SidDithers]

53. Not all athiests have myths...

just as not all Christians practice their belief the same way.


Sid

[Thtwudbeme]

63. Yes, dear, you do

Take a look at some of the stories you tell yourself.

I believe my doggie is the CUTEST little poochie woochie schmoonie in the entire world, and only a complete asswipe wouldn't adore her.

There's a myth. You have them too...just take an honest look at yourself.

[SidDithers]

72. I'm happy for you and your poochie woochie, dear, ...

but you're wrong. And if you were honest with yourself, you wouldn't be trying to define what another person does or doesn't believe.

Sid

[Thtwudbeme]

73. I am not

do you understand what the word "myth" means?

[SidDithers]

105. In the context of this thread...

I'm assuming we were talking about a system of beliefs, not the silly opinion of whether or not you have a cute dog.

Though if you want to equate your adoration of your pet, with your belief in a deity, I won't dissuade you from that notion.

See, I'm respecting your beliefs, and allowing you to define them yourself.

Sid

[zanne]

75. You're comparing apples and oranges.

When a child is born, if it is never told by adults that there is a supreme being and that there are saints, and commandments, and a bible, the child, naturally, would not have any belief in that supreme b eing. The child does not have to create a "myth" of any kind. Atheists don't try to create "something" out of "nothing". I might think my dog is adorable...what does that have to do with your belief in an afterlife, DEAR?

[ProfessorGAC]

147. Apples & Oranges

That's not a myth. It is a belief. It's not a myth. In addition, it may not even be a belief, since as much as i care about my dog, if i told you he was the best dog ever, i wouldn't even believe it. He's a good boy, but how the heck would i be able to know for sure he was the best ever. So, i could say it, and still not believe it. That's neither belief nor myth.

Myths do not even have to be believed to still be part of a mythology. There are those within the Jewish and Christian communities who do not believe the flood of Noe occurred. They see all the O.T. stories as allegorical. They don't believe them, but they are still part of the mythology.

Look into Joseph Campbell. I think you'll understand the value of myth in society better, without confusing it with belief.
The Professor

[patcox2]

2. Whats amazing are the posts about the mohammed cartoons

In which the PC police decry the insensitivity and racism of insulting the muslims with cartoons and how we must tiptoe around to avoid bruising their sensitivities and making them riot, murder, and call for fatwas and jihads.

but christians, even fellow democrats, are fair game.

[Coventina]

7. And don't even get me started on how it is also "racist"

Islam is a RELIGION, and many different ethnic groups make up its following.

[Bridget Burke]

126. But in Europe, Muslim = Arab.

Or perhaps dark-skinned folks from Pakistan or Iran. They don't have as many native-born Muslims as we do.

[muriel_volestrangler]

219. There probably are more native-born Muslims in Europe than the USA

The rough total of Muslims in the larger EU countries is 14 million - see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4385768.stm . Also note that the ethnicity is wider than you say - Turkish, Albanian, Bosnia, Indonesian, are all common, especially Turkish. 51% of Muslims in Britain were born there; 'a little less than half' of the 3 million in Gernmany were born there; I can't find figures for France, but, since immigration was much higher in the 60s and 70s than afterwards, there's a large number who were born in France. Compare that with an estimate of two fifths of 7 million Muslim Americans born in the USA.

[MindPilot]

16. Thank you for pointing that out

I am certainly as guilty as anyone of hitting religion hard whenever I see the need, but the dichotomy you bring up is interesting. We roundly slam RW talking heads with insults and even sometimes not-so-subtle calls for violence. Any mention of NASCAR is sure to elicit some unflattering comments about people from the south especially if they happen to be male. And of course the denizens of freeperville are always fair game as is any politico we happen to not agree with at the moment.

I think it's really a symptom of the political and philosophical schisms that have widened significantly since Bush slithered (oops!) into the White House.

Edited for verb agreement

[seabeyond]

20. and this is bullshit too. we, humans cannot do anything to

mohummad. a picture does not hurthigher power. big deal. these muslims that are offended are allowing htemselves to be offended because they are in battle with us. those that actually listen to the words of their religion are guided to, hey all,.... killing over a picture is stupid and totally contradictive to the preaching. but the fundamentalist is being fed in their religion (the old) right along with our own fundie in christianity.... and the same in jewish faith

[Jim__]

4. I'm sick of people who will defend Islam ... and slam Christians

Do you have an example of someone doing this? There are plenty of people here who defend Islam. There are plenty of people here who slam Christianity. I'm not sure how much of an overlap there is between these 2 groups.

I think your charge carries more weight if it comes with a few examples - after all, one example doesn't show any sort of trend.

Please, don't lump us all in the same boat.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. A very good point

It's easy to see 'DU' as one viewpoint - but it's really many individuals. Like you, I suspect those who criticise Christianity also criticise Islam, while those you think religious viewpoints deserve special consideration defend both.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. Some of us have suffered terribly in the name of "religion"

Usually a version of Christianity.

It can be difficult to shake that off and see the good in it.

[zanne]

58. You're right.

And most wars throughout history have been caused by religion. Muslim extremists who are burning buildings and the publishers of the Christian magazine that depicted Mohammed in a cartoonish way are both at fault, but I don't favor one side or the other. It's all the same to me.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

170. Well stated.

I started researching wars once, to find out how many were fought over religion; "My God is the true God and therefore I must kill you", how many were fought over something else, but religion was used to get the masses to fight, and how many had nothing to do with religion at all. There aren't very many of the last sort. :(

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. There is sometimes

a disconnect here, as we all attempt to remember that not all Muslims are radical folks. We do a pretty good job of that. Trying to remember the same thing about Jews and Christians..not so good.

It is always easier to be tolerant of folks you don't deal with every day.

[Inland]

225. LOL! Good fences make good neighbors. nt

[bowens43]

8. Fundamanatlism is the problem.

Whether it's Christan fundamentalism or Islamic fundamentalism, it's evil and it's dangerous. Christian fundamentalism is the single greatest threat to our freedom. Actually, it's the fear of standing up against Christian fundamentalists and 'appearing anti-Christian' that is the greatest danger to our freedom. If you want to see the 'bashing' stop then Christians need to step in and control the 'very vocal minority that makes asses out of themselves' because like it or not they ARE the face of Christianity in this country today and they are shaping national policy..

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. I would like to go on the air on 700 club and tell Robertson to bite me

[seabeyond]

31. dobsons spread in co springs. i drive past. i want to do more

than just telling him to bite me. it is 6/7 hours from where i live in the panhandle of texas. he is spreading down here. i had to do research on im a couple years ago, cause i have to deal with him and his mentality

[GreenPartyVoter]

41. It's really sad but at one time he was marginally tolerable.. now he's

gone crazy. Weird what old age will do to some folks.

[seabeyond]

57. bennett, just a mere 8 yrs ago i was listening to this man

about children and education. he was smart. knew what he was talking. dobson, i found a book my uncle gave us when we married 11 years ago on marriage. beautifully written book. but this is the thing that bush and southern baptist were able to do.... kids in christian private school. clearly it was so clear, i watched 2002 the fucking with the sheep begin. pulling them from love to hate. spring 2004 and the movie passion., and bush wanting to change constitution putting in hate....... wow.... the sheep were hit hard. in all ways. the hate. and the movie passion fueled. i saw this happening. kids were coming home from school telling me about the movie. i was keeping movie from kids, i was well informed. finally i went to the school and said, dont you dare, dont you dare feed a bit of this shit to my children. you will see a mama explode. we loved/love these people. what they did to kids to get them angry and hate.... and then i watched until election how org rightwing christian made their political move

all this, in love. i feel for these guys. they are my firends, family,...... teachers, students.... i love em. they are just confused.

told minister when i walked from that school and they really didnt want us to go, cause we walk the talk. minister have abused their people, and that,.... there is nothing worse. they are given a power, talking about peoples spirituality and to not walk that in purity is baddddddd.

[GreenPartyVoter]

68. I remember those early books of Dobson's. My mother had at least one from

a women's Bible study group.. I think it was "What Husbands Want from their Wives" or something to that effect. I know I read at least parts of it as a teen and it seemed reasonable enough.

Seems like the same sad thing has happened with Billy Graham. He marched with Dr. King but he is against homosexuality from everything I have heard.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

168. Guess what else is in CoSprings - Air Force Acad

Where they wash the brains of future military pilots with fundie christian ideas.

[seabeyond]

169. i know i know. where rape is rampant. where this fundie preach

is demanded of these students. yes i know. wink

you should see dobson spread. huge ass building with flags down the drive. it looks like a damn circus set up

[seabeyond]

24. all in thename of christ. often my mouth hangs open

with what i hear come out of these peopples mouths. and they pray and pray and pray so hard to be heard..... sad

[ProfessorGAC]

35. Give bowens A Cigar!!!

That is the root of this whole problem. Radical conservatism (which is what fundamentalism really is) is inherently dangerous, whether christian, muslim, or marxist or capitalist. Absolute demands for adherance to dogma by one's self AND others around one is what we are really seeing in these riots, and in the rise of the radical right in this country.
The Professor

[TallahasseeGrannie]

203. I agree with most of your post

but am tired of the argument that I (as a Christian) need to step in and control "the very vocal minority." No, I don't. I've heard that same argument leveled against moderate Muslims and I don't think they have that responsibility, either.

Every man and woman is responsible for his or her own life, and accountable for the same. I have enough to worry about keeping my own life in line.

[seabeyond]

204. ah, wel see as a christian i do feel the obligation

and i also feel it with the moderate muslims yes i do. we feel totally opposite of this. further, i feel that it is a christian duty to get beyond self, (just responsible for my own life) and that i am equally responsible as a whole

why i like hillary's it takes a village ot raise a child

bottomline grannie i almost always agree with you and always enjoy your post. i just see it differently

[TallahasseeGrannie]

206. Maybe you just don't have such

a hard time keeping your own life straight!

I'm at peak energy right now and my days are limited, I know.

[seabeyond]

208. you betcha and you right, i dont have much of a

challenge keeping my life straight. i do have the time. and i totally respect and understand what you are saying. so you know what i say, when people say this to me. i totally understand, so i will do, and you take care of you. cause you cant do others, til you are done with yourself that is for sure. has to start with you being at peace, and spreads out

you are right. right on.

[wtmusic]

9. Hmm

Is organized religion above criticism?

Can one criticize religion and still be tolerant of it?

What does it mean to "respect someone's beliefs"?

[BushOut06]

11. Absolutely, and "organized" religion might be one of the biggest problems

Because once it becomes "organized", with its own heirarchy and traditions, oftentimes it becomes more about the human posts than God. The organization then tends to use the religion itself to maintain its power structure.

[seabeyond]

33. ya.... and this is what everyone is righteously griping about and pissed

about. we have never been more into it about the power and control of man, in our religion. and man not as in mankind. i mean white male/.

well, being a female i say fuck that shit

[Little Star]

Bingo with the

organized religion hierarchy theory. I am a christian and I go to church. However, I have always felt that the organized part is a paradox, both good and bad at the same time. It enables you to worship and socialize with like minded people and thats good imho. It also makes you part of a club that nurtures group think and I find that very similar to a gang. It easily creates sheeple who just blindly think inside the group box.

[seabeyond]

94. bt.... i am a christian that cannot do group and people.

i cannot. i couldnt do church even if i tried. that is not how i was created, so surely i wont go to hell cause i cannot do people. i talk god, live christs words, love.... no one can challenge that, yet there is a need to feel if you dont go to church then.....? ya know

i really admire the people that can do and enjooy church. three friends, ... two catolics and one baptist, ove their faith. and i do like listening to them, and their love and passion in their religion. jsut last couple years i havent been able to appreciate it like i did in the past. before i use to get up on sundays, and do my meditation, and feel the song and sound from alll that worshipped, and i would thank them for being able to group and sing out. i havent for a couple years. i miss that

[TallahasseeGrannie]

205. But sometimes there is power in the group

to serve and do things we as individuals cannot do.

[bryant69]

17. Interesting

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. It means that you discuss them respectfully, rather than using derogetory or mocking language in discussing them.

In my opinion, most discussions on religion should stay in the religion area for those who enjoy them. But of coures I can see how people might disagree with me.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[wtmusic]

118. I like your definition

of respecting another's beliefs.

But one aspect of religion I could never get over is the assumption (in most) that if you don't belong, you end up in hell after you die--a de facto intolerance which, in a lot of ways, cuts to the root of why different religions can't peacefully coexist.

[fasttense]

22. I was wondering that myself wtmusic

How do you know when you have crossed over from acceptable criticism to intolerance and christian-bashing?

I'm a Christian and have never found DU offensive. True there are some rabid atheists who love to argue with you but I enjoy that kind of argument. I have no allegiance to the fundamentalist wacko Christians, and though I was raised Catholic, I understand it when people attack the Pope for his bias and sometimes bigoted views. I guess I don't see the Christian bashing you talk about. But then, I infrequently read posts about religion.

[seabeyond]

83. and.... itis not my job to protect god. never did jesus ask me

to protect him. ust seems silly to me

[TallahasseeGrannie]

211. Great quesitons, all

to me it comes down to this. You can disagree with me.. no problem. I love a good fair argument. But don't make fun of me by belittling my beliefs. For example, telling me I believe in sky fairies, etc. The worst I've heard here is Zombie Jesus. I have to tell you that really hurts. I can kind of understand the Mulim angst about the cartoons, but I didn't burn anything down.

So "respect someone's beliefs" means to me to acknowledge that they exist and they are valued by that person. You don't need to agree by any means.

Now if you see me doing harm in the name of my belief, you have every right to tell me about it, or step in and intervene.

My opinion..worth a beer, probably.

[Inland]

222. First, remember to not falsify their beliefs

by false association, that is, if you are a christian you must agree with Pat Robertson. That's the point of the OP.

Second, remember to not get personal, in that someone going to church takes an hour out of their lives, not yours.

Third, remember that whatever you think of their beliefs, they ended up in the liberal democratic camp.

Fourth, remember that you haven't a pocketful of answers for anybody either.

Fifth, remember who's in the majority. Actually, that's not respect, that's just politics.

If you obey one through four, I think you'll be okay.

[Warpy]

10. Well, then, don't you think it might be time to ask why people

out there feel like they have a right to bash religion in general? Don't you think it might be time to listen to some of the criticism, take it to heart, and try to change things so that people see religion as a positive force instead of an excuse to target hate?

Instead of criticising others for reacting badly, don't you think it might be time to correct what has provoked those reactions?

Or is it just easier to complain that other people are hitting back?

Personally, I don't think hitting back solves much of anything, but it should draw the attention of people to a problem that exists. The choice is between fixing the problem (and face it, religion is developing one hell of a PR problem in this country thanks to bullying by bluenosed fundies) and complaining that people are finally starting to object to being pushed around.

[lukasahero]

117. Hi Warpy - I agree with you but think that there are many people

(Xtians) now who are trying to listen, who are trying to stand up and put forth a different face of Christianity (the face we know) and those people still get slammed here.

Many of us, although I can only speak for myself, are getting more involved in our churches because we're so disgusted with what is being done in our name (just like more Americans are getting involved in politics because of what shrub is doing in our name).

I agree that complaining (the persecuted Christians complex is so much BS) solves nothing and probably just gets people who really have been persecuted pissed off more ("reverse discrimination" anyone?) but even I have to admit, that the constant barrage of posts labelling all religious folks the same gets tiring when some of us are trying so hard to change the public face of religion. (Geez, I feel like a Muslim here trying to convince American's that not all Muslims are terrorists.)

We're trying to take it back and for those of us who DO believe religion is personal and shouldn't be thrown in anyone's face, that's a very difficult thing to do and a delicate balance to acheive. Maybe the request was poorly made, but I suspect what the OP may really be trying to say is, maybe the "all religion is evil" posters could cut those of us trying to fix the problem a little bit of slack?

:peace:

[Inland]

232. But people DO see religion as a positive force already.

Like it or not, the numbers that put religion as a whole in the negative or usually negative are a decided minority.

The religious themselves, both those on DU and in the world, are just stumbling around trying to do the right thing, raise their kids and figure out the right thing. Just like real people.

They go to churches that have as much to do with Pat Robertson or Rev. Phelps or the God Hates Fags dude as much as it does the Chinese Politburo. They not only don't agree, but they have no way of even talking to such people. There isn't a Pan Religion convention where they can put a motion on the floor for a vote, and saddling them with an obligation to "fight" them is ridiculous in a nation where each sect made themselves a separate sect for the sole purpose of not having to listen to anybody.

Then they come here (to fight in the way it is possible, in politics!) and get shit for the crusades, and Robertson, and if that weren't bad enough, find out that they are guilty for god killing children.

And I wouldn't give a shit if not for the fact that there aren't enough people who hate religion to win a city council seat in Berkeley. But for those of us who don't live in Manhattan or a college town, we're hoping that not everyone sees the enormous horseshit in the anti religion threads. Just saying.

[podnoi]

234. Why should we eat our own then!!!!

Like we don't understand that (bad religion) already???? People of faith here ARE trying to change it. Why don't you all help or at least stop jumping all over those who have a faith and are progressive.

[seabeyond]

12. hey, as a christian i say to you, why>>>>> are you bothered

with what people are saying on this board about christianity. WHY are you not as pissed at your christians for their unchristian behavior. instead of challenging the people that are being abused by our religion,..??.. why are you not standing with and backing them in their fight against OUR christianity that is ABUSING them. i do not get this with my fellow christians. i have no desire to fight those on this board that are pissed at our abuses. i go after my christians that feel the need to label themselves christians and then act in absolutley NON christian way..... as they judge me, and tell me i am not christian because of how i vote, and tell me i must honor christ their way, which is counter to christ himself

why are you angry at a single person on this board that is angry at yours and my religion. in my view, they have every right. i expect them to. i demand it of them. dont allow christian to take away your right. fight

[BushOut06]

14. I've always stood up to both extremes

I have no problem challenging those who use Christianity as a tool, as a means to strenthen their power grip. I consider myself to be pretty decently versed in the Bible, so when Christians get out of hand, I know how to put them back in their place. Trust me, I've gotten into quite a few arguments with so-called Christians in the past.

[seabeyond]

65. they are OUT of hand, and they are NOT back in place hence

the anger at christianity

[Touchdown]

171. There's your problem right there!

"I always stood up to both extremes".

Vile language and demonization of peoples is an extreme. Reaction to it is fighting back.

By whining to us on this board, instead of those on imabetterchristianthanyou.org you are tacitly approving of that extreme, and demanding that we victims of it shut up and take it.

[podnoi]

235. What makes you think the poster is not?

I guess some of us whould actually like to have constructive discussions and not be a punching bags for others. If someone had a bad father why should I as a father bear the brunt of their anger? I will critisize bad fathers as much as the next guy. But because I am a father it does not also make me the bad guy, nor does it mean all fathers are bad.

Not a perfect analogy but I am sure folks will understand what I am saying

[ChairmanAgnostic]

13. Religions are the problem. They replace rational thought with faith.

Irrational faith, to be accurate. They allow fundies to grow and do outrageous things to further their religion. It matters not one bit whether the fundie is a bomb-carrying wahabi or a christian nut with a gun shooting at abortion clinics.

Any time that science, social services, creativity and discovery are impeded by a religious movement, society has been harmed. The worst enemy we face is religion. Period. It is an opiate, a crutch, an irrational method of exerting control over the masses. It is dangerous and deadly, for it spawns violence and intolerance.

For those (more than a few) who disagree, take the time to think before answering this question.

Just how many agnostics or atheists have started wars or killed people in the name of their way of thinking?

[Coventina]

19. The greatest mass-murderer in history was an atheist: Stalin

He killed at least twice as many people as Hitler.

I understand your points, and agree with them. But just want to point out that so-called "rational" dogmas can lead to mass murder as well.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

42. peanuts. Mao had him by a factor of 3.

Mao promoted a cult, a religion of his own. He was the great leader, he was the religious icon, people prayed to his image and read from his little red book as though it were a bible.

But the worst of all historical killers? The catholic church. In terms of percentage or raw numbers, they killed, tortured, eradicated and assassinated more unhappy inhabitants from the face of this planet than any other organization or individual.
Entire tribes destroyed. Entire civilizations killed off and enslaved. eleven crusades which caused the deaths of many millions. The inquisition, the dark ages, - the list is endless. Only today, as the Vatican is trying to find its dentures, have they refrained from mass murder.

[greyl]

87. Not really.

The execution total is more like 700,000.
Stalin recieved a scholarship from an Orthodox seminary as a teenager.
Stalin's world view in his later years wasn't what rational people would call rational. He isn't an example of rationalism gone wrong, as much an example of pathological personality disorder and power & dominance as a path to wrongheaded self-actualization.
Stalin is not exactly worshipped by groups of "extremist" atheists like Hitler is worshipped by small groups of extremist Christians.
Finally, atheism is not a religion. Stalin didn't kill people "in the name of Atheism".

There's no argument from me that he wasn't a thoroughly fucked up guy.

[Inland]

226. Well, you didn't require that he kill in the name of atheism.

All that shows is that atheists manage to find another belief system for which to kill someone, and therefore it's pretty clear that eliminating religion doesn't mean something better is on its way.

[podnoi]

236. Stalin's total 9-20 million

I don't know where you are getting your numbers of 700k. Take a look at this on Wikopedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

[Touchdown]

106. Wrong. Ghengis Kahn was worse.

...and he was religious. Killed every man, woman and child in Baghdad (Babylon).

Stalin's religion was communism.

[Bill McBlueState]

192. exactly: "so-called"

Stalinists claimed atheism, but they really just replaced worship of the gods with worship of the state.

We need to stop worshipping things.

[ladjf]

103. Another good post. It's hard to survive when your core beliefs

are fabricated.

[Inland]

224. Stalin. Pol Pot. Lenin. I took three seconds, is that long enough?

Indeed, more rationality and science and book learning for everyone, it seems.

[devilgrrl]

23. I'm sick of religion period....

and personally wish it would go away.

[SammyWinstonJack]

89. Seconded! Maybe the World would be a better place then? nt

.

[ladjf]

109. Religion is a childish activity. However, unlike most children's

games, it has a dangerous component, particularly if governments with nuclear capabilities fall into the hands of theologians.

[Skidmore]

26. Well I'm an equal opportunity basher then.

I have no use for organized religion of any kind. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism regardless of what the name of your god or gods are. I've seen it on both sides of the world and it is ugly whether the standard is a cross, a star, or a crescent. The pain and misery brought about by men who think they know the mind of whatever deity they serve quite often overwhelms the good wrought in the name of god. It doesn't follow that because Christianity clothes itself in Christly garments that everyone who practices it does so in the manner that Christ taught. No religion can claim purity. I have known good and moral people of many religions. The most meaningful gesture any faith right now could engage in would be to censure the zealots in their midst. Keep in mind that not all practitioners are educated or enlighted. Bring enlightment to them then.

[H2O Man]

28. I think that

"organized" religion has done harm to a lot of people, including many on this forum. Of those, a portion react with bitterness. It is true that bitterness contaminates the vessel which contains it, and that is sadly evident from time to time here.

However, that should not be grounds for avoiding frank and open discussions on the wide range of issues that involve, to a variety of degrees, the impact of "religion" on our society and indeed the world. These discussions can and should range on from topics as diverse as our own belief system -- be it based upon religion or not -- as well as progressive issues such as The Interfaith Alliance, which combats the unhealthy/unholy influence of diseased minds like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, to suggestions on how to promote democracy based upon shared values, as taught by political philosopher Michael Sandel from Harvard.

Bitterness and hatred, no matter what vessel it is contained in, should not become the language used in our discussions and debates. Mutual respect should be our tongue.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

48. Say, H2O, how can one respect the child abusers of Kansas?

Teaching and brainwashing their young that evolution is wrong, that creationism is right and that they MUST belong to one creed amounts to nothing less than child abuse. These people positively harm their kids and scar their psyches for life. The formative years are truly formative. that is a lot of baggage to toss before you can enter civilized society and engage in discourse from a background of education and free thought, compared to brainwashing and sick religious ideas.

Do you promote tolerance when the person you face calls for the eradication of your ideas as the opening volley? Such is the reality with christianity. They are evil, they are power-hungry and they seek to change YOUR society and remake it into something which strikes me as outrageous evil.

[H2O Man]

86. Since I never advocated

that anyone respect child abusers, I feel no obligation to now. Perhaps you missed the entire point of my post, or perhaps you simply want to ignore it.

However, in answer to your question about tolerance in the face of someone resorting to nonsense in their opening volley, yes, I think it is a good thing. Often people who resort to the aggressive tactics mentioned in your post are feeling threatened. No better example need be mentioned than your "... the reality with christianity. They are evil ..." quote. It ignores examples from The Interfaith Alliance I mentioned, as well as Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

120. sorry, I was not ignoring your point, but taking it a bit further.

Kansas is a reality. (a sad one) so are 40 other counties hell-bent on promoting ID or creationism in schools across the country. That is about as in your face as it gets without holding a gun. THeir wish is to brainwash their youth - and yours - and to prevent real education from taking place. Unless it is on their terms. They do not compromise, for that is nothing more than an admission of defeat.

Again, please answer the question. How many wars, deaths or how much brainwashing has been done by atheists or agnostics?

Do you really think that in the face of intolerance, deceit, deviousness and evil - represented by christian and muslim religions, that sitting there and saying, "I understand and I support your right to want to brainwash my kids in public school simply because you believe it so strongly" will work? You think that understanding and acceptance is an asset?

Not I. When a guy drinking beer in his front lawn, starts swearing, carrying a loaded shot gun next to a kids playground, and stomping around like he will explode, the answer is to remove him from his gun, not to say, "My, we disagree, but you have your right to express yourself."

The solution is to get rid of religion. We start by taxing them.

[Corgigal]

29. I thought religious preference

is suppose to be QUIET. You don't wear it on your sleeve and have a need to run around talking about it constantly. I respect everyone belief to QUIETLY believe whatever they want to believe.
The minute you post or have a need to verbalize it, then you opened a door to conversation. If others not believing in your belief offended you so much, they you might need to find a new religion.

[Hubert Flottz]

30. I get tired of people bashing sinners here too!

It's like people come here to stir up trouble and create division amongst the troops! Besides I thought this was about politics not religion. I mean, I never clicked on Pat Robert's web page today, I came to a POLITICAL chat board! Mixing church and state, are like mixing booze and race cars!

[MadHound]

34. Puhleeze friend, welcome to our world

As a non-Christian, I've been subject to everything from ridicule to death threats over the issue of religion. I perceive a creeping theocracy in our society, taking over our governmental and societal institutions. The rise of the religious right in this country is eating away at the fabric of our society like a virulent cancer. Yes, I will criticize, mock and ridicule this movement, for that is all it deserves. Does that mean that I include more moderate Christians in my speech or stance? No, but apparently some take it that way. It amazes me how there is some overly sensetive Christian out there who either cannot or will not make this distinction.

I think that you are being a bit over sensetive on this issue. Most people, myself included, make a point of pointing out that who they are going after is the religious right. Those who don't make such a point generally figure that the people around here are savvy enough to realize that they are indeed talking about the religious right, not Christianity as a whole. Yes, there are always going to be a few that will spit bile and venom against the whole, but I think that you will find that this is the rare exception around here, not the rule.

[mtnsnake]

37. The people running this country are jamming religion down our throats...

That's why you're hearing religion bashing.

If they were more like Jimmy Carter, who didn't use his religion as a stepping stone, then there wouldn't be all this religion bashing.

[Perky]

52. But that begs the questions

You arepissed rightful;ly so at people who false;y use religion toward their own ends. SO the issue is not relion it is how it is used.


So why bash religion? That is not the issue.

[ladjf]

111. Another example of good thinking.

[Mossadeq]

39. wait a minute.

"We are supposed to be the tolerant ones here!"

Sure we are, But would you be tolerant enough to let mass murderers out of jail, do you think we neen to tolerate murder ?

I think religious people are sick, they support and worship a god who ordered the slaughter and dismemberment of thousands of innocent women and children, who in their right mind can support this action ? Who could ever justify killing innocent women and children ?

These people will tell you that god MAKES NO MISTAKES...they will tell you the killing of these kids and infants IS NO MISTAKE.

Sorry, I will not tolerate such radical thinking, nor should you

[Thtwudbeme]

44. So, you are intolerant of people's whose ideas and philosophy differ from

your own.

Wow. I am not a good speller...can you help me out? Hypocrit? or Hypocrite?

[Mossadeq]

51. Jeeesh, the spin is amazing,

Of course I am tolerant of others views, as long as their views don't support killing innocent kids and raping their mothers.

Stop it already, you are coming off like Hannity

[BushOut06]

55. Please - name me one Christian who supports that

Not even fundies like Robertson go that far. NOWHERE in the New Testament (yes, that is what Christianity is primarily based on) does it advocate what you are saying. In fact, quite the opposite.

[Selatius]

91. Many folks who call themselves Christian forget that detail

They still run websites like godhatesfags.com regardless of the fact that Jesus said nothing in condemnation of homosexuality even though the origins of the anti-gay attitude stretch back into the Old Testament.

As far as Pat Robertson goes, check your records again. He called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez, a democratically elected head of state down there in Venezuela.

[Maru Kitteh]

128. I think some of the hateful posts above are yours are proving

the OP quite well. See the point is - I don't ASSUME all atheists are arrogant assholes just because some of them on DU are, and I would never dream of doing something so clearly ignorant and simple minded as lumping all atheists under the same blanket. Indeed, I fight mightily for separation of church from state. I would walk out of my church if they started advocating for any political policy and I want my state out of the God business also. It would be nice if some of the atheists on this board with two fingers worth of forehead could pull their heads out of their asses long enough to figure out that most liberal Christians are trying to help them in these matters.

[Bill McBlueState]

193. but you can't ignore the impact of the OT

Historically, Christian churches have considered the Old Testament part of their sacred scripture, and today, people use it to justify intolerance. Even the mainline churches include weekly readings from the OT.

But if people are willing to ignore the ugly parts of their holy books, that's a positive step.

[LynneSin]

97. Even Hannity isn't that much of a dumbass to agree with the view you have

:eyes:

[LynneSin]

70. Try thinking of Jesus sorta like Abe Lincoln

For years our forefathers kept slaves to run their plantations. That was pretty much a way of the country even when in the North many governments chose to abolish it.

Abe Lincoln came along and said that slavery was bad, gave the Emancipation Proclamation and freed all the slaves. From that point forward, at least in the United States, slavery is illegal. You cannot buy and own a slave. Slavery is an embarrassment of our country but is taught in history class as a way that children can learn about US History and an understanding of why our country had a Civil War.

Ok, you could compare Jesus to Abe Lincoln and the laws & cruel happenings of the old testament to slavery. The Old Testament was a documented history of our faith before Jesus came. In a way the books were chosen to show the cruelty of God and the stringent nature of the law. But Jesus & the New Testament was the New Covenant - a pact between God & Man that we would no longer be persecuted under the ways of the old testament. Jesus came to earth and was so radical in his faith of poverty and giving to others that the leaders of the church had him crucified (I guess they were the "John Wilkes Booth" of biblical time). But even after Jesus's death we learn that because of him we should live our lives with love, peace and compassion towards others.

But unfortunately, just like slavery still exists in this world so do people who still can't get a grip on the fact that Jesus was a liberal, hippie jew. And they pick and choose the stuff out of the old testament that they can use to manipulate others. And personally it's just sick. But this is not CHristianity and for many of us we refer to them as Fundies or Xtians. They do not represent Jesus.

I'll pray for you to hopefully get a grip on what many of us are trying to tell you about Christianity as a whole. I realize we've gotten a bum rap because of degenerates like Phelps, Falwell, Robertson and even the Bush Regime, but you'll find that the bulk of us are loving people who are opposed to this hate & killing in the world.

[NNN0LHI]

74. I liked that a lot Lynn. Thank you very much n/t

[BushOut06]

80. That's a great way of looking at it - never thought of that, thanks -n/t

[Selatius]

104. Sorry, but Lincoln is a fool in comparison to Jesus

I find it to be a horrible comparison given Lincoln's notorious hatred of Black people. He only freed the slaves to inflict an economic blow against the Confederation. It was about money. Morality was simply the cover, but underneath that the motive was money. He was trying to cripple the South's economy by encouraging revolt among the enslaved class.

This is what he said during the 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate:

I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. ...

And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

Appalling indeed.

[Leopolds Ghost]

216. I agree, but sometimes

people had to say shit like that back then to get elected.

Loncoln protesteth a bit too much in this and the "if I could
abolish the Confederacy" quote, especially given what he and
his political heirs were able to accomplish. Keep in mind that
Frederick Douglass advised him on the Emancipation Proclamation...
and people's views change.

[Inland]

229. You are missing the point.

It's anachronistic to put today's values on the old testament peoples or the old testament god, as it is to put it on Lincoln.

We note the faults and the virtues and move on. It's more important to uphold today's values for today's people than try to shoehorn Lincoln into a civil rights party..

And what are today's values? Apparently finding some reason to pick fights with an innocuous majority and other liberal democrats over nothing.

[beam me up scottie]

231. Values? You mean like abandoning GLBT people because their cause isn't

popular enough?

Do tell.

[Inland]

223. Uhh.....well, everyone who wants to dismember children can fuck off.

Can everyone else stay? Or aren't you willing to make the fine, ethical distinction between those who want to dismember children and those who want to increase school lunch funding.

[Maru Kitteh]

69. K and R! Thanks for saying this, it's exactly how I feel. n/t

[BushOut06]

84. Thanks - what are Christian Democrats supposed to do?

And I'm not even a practicing Christian (haven't been to church in years), although I do try to live the best I can and abide by the primary tenets. I can't even imagine how hard it must be to be a regular church-going Democrat nowadays. It's like you're getting attacked from both sides.

[Maru Kitteh]

125. I found a very liberal minded church

I don't attend as often as I would like but it is comfortable and warm. We have one trandsgendered member and one gay couple, single moms who did not wed, and everyone is treated with love and respect. In Kearney, Nebraska no less. Who wudda thunk it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

152. Yes, there are plenty of liberal churches, but you do have to look

Ask around within your denomination of choice.

I'm in one. :-)

[rasputin1952]

76. It is not the religion that produces negative results, it is the

misinterpretation that causes great destruction led by unfounded hatred that is produced by misinterpretation.

When was the last time one of these 'preachers' discussed "The Golden Rule", or the beatitudes?
It makes little difference to me what the 'religion' is, what makes a difference is the way that religion is twisted to produce fear and hatred, this is not the basis of any religion, it is the antithesis of the basic tenets of every religion.

Religion is being used as an excuse for violent acts against a presumed 'enemy' of that religion. The very thought of religion brings together certain 'rules' that generally benefit a society...right up until some buffoon, w/an agenda of his/her own, uses the fear that can be generated as an excuse for death and destruction. The great failing of humanity, is that people do not call these people what they are, hypocrites and purveyors of ignorance. Just because someone has some silly 'degree' in theology certainly doesn't mean they are the where-with-all for all knowledge. People need to get off their duffs and think for themselves; make their own decisions and leave these radical misfits in the dust. The basic problem that most followers of 'religion', (regardless of what that religion is), is that they are just plain to darn lazy to look things up, and think things out for themselves. They are the catalysts for their own demise.

"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you", still seems like some pretty good advice.

Just my 2 cents as a member of DU...:)

[Bill McBlueState]

194. it's not all misinterpretation

Religion is being used as an excuse for violent acts against a presumed 'enemy' of that religion.

Much of the Old Testament and the Qu'ran are explicitly about violent acts against enemies of the religion. We come up with new ways to interpret many passages in light of advances in secular morality, but look at what God told the Israelites to do to the Canaanites!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

79. Sometimes elitist myopia

masquerades as "progressivism."

Always cracks me up when atheist intellectuals can't see that their own belief structures are simply based upon a different set of myths.

It's all relative, baby!

[SidDithers]

127. Yup, those silly atheists, not knowing anything about beliefs...

good thing we've got lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of believers out there to tell us that we have no clue about our lack of belief.

Mind telling me what my belief structure is? After all, I'm an atheist, so you obviously know all about me.

:eyes:

Sid

[TallahasseeGrannie]

207. It is funny, isn't it?

How folks are so SURE they are right, how they look about them with such disdain, never recognizing for an instant their own foibles displayed in front of them?

[SidDithers]

209. I find it funny that folk can speak so confidently...

about a subject, and yet simultaneously be so ignorant about it.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

227. Okay, Einstein-tell us what myths atheist "belief structures" are based on

[Selatius]

81. I DON'T TRUST established religion

It is not the ideas that offend me as much as the intolerance I see in all walks of life.

Intolerance, more than anything, is why Agnosticism and Atheism are growing as big as they are today. Free thought philosophies such as Agnosticism, Unitarianism, Deism, etc. are spreading as a result of intolerance and attacks coming from the established religions.

The reason why many attack Christians here is the result of their watching Christians launching attack after attack on Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, Unitarians, and everybody else who is not a Christian or does not lead a Christian life. The gay community is a prime example. I'm not justifying retaliation in response to Christian attacks. I would say it doesn't do the attacker any good besides mental masturbation or emotional venting.

Many Christian groups advocate authoritarian methodology. They would legislate and impose their will on others regardless of that individual's views. They would go so far as to try to criminalize certain lifestyles and behaviors in an attempt to bring morality to the country, and the fact that many people in the middle have done nothing by not speaking much if at all is, in my book, being complicit in the attacks. All they have done is "sit on the fence" and watch the attacks unfold with no real voice of opposition.

The only group I can say that has done anything worth a damn is the Christian left, and they're outnumbered two to one in America.

I don't consider myself a Christian because I don't believe Jesus was the son of God or that he had holy or divine properties or that he rose from the dead. I judged those notions as unsupportable by the evidence. I don't place him any higher than an enlightened philosopher.

I cannot, in good conscience, call myself a Christian without getting sick at the notion that you have people who also call themselves Christian who run websites such as

godhatesfags.com

That kind of intolerance is absolutely destructive, and I won't join such a community that includes thta kind of people. I'd rather be an independent thinker than surrender that independence to an organization that cannot even come to a consensus, which is the problem with organized religion in general. It has become nothing but a vehicle for control, regulation, and domination.

[Little Star]

93. Speaking of intolerance

I can remember the day, not long ago, that differing religions here in the usa hated each other.

[Stuckinthebush]

82. My thoughts on "Christian bashing"

The liberal and progressive Christian churches in America have let the extremist take over the name "Christian". It is a labeling problem. It was a slow progression of the extreme right in this take over, but let's face it, the term Christian is now associated with Bush, the GOP, and Pat Robertson. Liberal Christians like John Shelby Spong and Walter Bruggeman have been marginalized and their voices silenced. They are now seen as the extremist where the true extremists in the religion have taken over and become the voice. True, there are many sects of Christianity, but the global face of the religion looks a lot like Crazy Pat.

When the networks have a Christian expert on to discuss "morals" or the "church's" (note: singular) position, it is always some loon from the right. This is the problem.

My father, a life long Presbyterian minister, laments this takeover and will tell you that the liberal voices are almost gone even in the traditionally moderate to liberal Christian churches. True there is still the United Church of Christ, but the Presbyterians, Methodists and Episcopalians have had internal resurgences of conservatives in their ranks which has diluted the liberal message.

Back to the problem...Christian bashing on DU. Remember that Christian now means "intolerant, frightening, war mongering, and hate" based on the new face of the religion. It is a bastardization of the original message from that cool dude Jesus, but it doesn't matter...the damage is done and there is little that can be done to wrest the name from the clutches of the angry, hate filled right. That is why you find Christian bashing here (or anywhere). The new "Christian" voice deserves to be bashed. The old Christian voice does not. There needs to be a distinction...a different name given to the liberal view.

Just a thought.

[Leopolds Ghost]

217. A new name... hmm... Christafarian? n/t

[podnoi]

237. Yes but why here?

I understand your point. But why here, when those "other people" are other places. It just doesn't serve anything except getting one's own frustrations out.

[beam me up scottie]

239. Your answer is in the post just below mine.

#90, to be exact, and here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=49100&mesg_id=49256

[Touchdown]

90. Then you do something about it.

Nobody is doing any of this ridiculous, what you misstate as "religion bashing", on this board without damn good reasons. Nothing occurs in a vacuum.

You want to stop criticism, warranted or otherwise? Then speak out against those who hijacked your faith. Crying to their targets of oppression earns you no sympathy. Your trying to argue with the wrong people. If your too chicken to stand up to your own religion bretheren, then don't take it out on us.

And yes! It is not "religion bashing". When a homosexual beats you bloody, and ties you to a barbed wire fence to die in the middle of the fields, then, and ONLY then will you have ANY right to claim victimhood for yourself.

Bitch to your own damn church, and leave the victims of "conservative Christianity" alone!

I'm sick of this false victimhood from thin skinned christians always crying to their religion's victims, especially on this board, where liberal Christians are supposed to be tolerant. Your faith and it's self appoined leaders are causing the rift in this country, not us. Talk to them about it. Whatever we say, is FULLY justified.

[shrike]

98. I'm afraid the crazies won't listen to us, either

Trust me on that.

[ladjf]

99. Good post. In principle, religion is no worse than it has ever

been. However, the fact that the religious right in the U.S. has facilitated what amounts to a coup d'etat and as a result, the entire world is now subject to the whims of the Republican administration which seems intent upon world domination as all cost, it's time that the dangers of religious practice are revealed.

[BushOut06]

108. In other words, we tolerate everyone - except those fucking christians

They can all go to hell.

Is that about the jist of it? I really don't know what you expect from me - I have debated so-called christians on many occasions. It's not as if I can become Pope and wave a magic wand or anything.

[Touchdown]

156. One thing you might do for yourself is...

...learn to understand english. I said nothing of the kind.

Why can't you become Pope? If a Hitler-Youth can be, why not you? I'm not taklking about debate. You want a place to start? Get Janet Parshall off the air. Organize, speak out, don't shut up, and don't let any of them try to shut you up.

It took us gay people (with our vast agenda) to get Dr. Laura off the TV. We are a fraction of the Christian community...Oh' but you "tried debating" and got nowhere. My heart bleeds.:nopity:

Go cry to somebody who enables you.

[Leopolds Ghost]

218. Yeah... And those bloody Irish! Them too!

'aving all those bloody children that they can't bloody afford to feed.

Lucky us English don't have that problem, do we dear?

--Well... but dear... why not?

Because, well, we have birth control and all.

--We've never used it.

Well, we've only had sex once.

</Monty Python sketch>

[salvorhardin]

162. Thank you

Although I don't see it as religion per se that is causing problems, but rather the right's pandering to a particularly vile and loathsome set of religious leaders. Otherwise, my thoughts precisely.

[Toucano]

92. Boo hoo!

There's no increasing frequency. It's always been this way.

It's not possible to respect all beliefs because some beliefs are absurd. Respecting the absurd is what has gotten the world in all the trouble it has.

[ladjf]

100. Good logic.

[BushOut06]

102. You do realize there are quite a few Christian Democrats, don't you?

So are you saying that anyone who believes in God is absurd, and you would want nothing to do with them? Even those who have never done anything harmful to anyone, who have never condemned anyone to hell, and who have done all they can to help their fellow man? One of our greatest humanitarian Presidents, Jimmy Carter, is a devout Christian.

I swear, sometimes I think people like you would love nothing better than to run all Christians out of the Democratic Party.

[seabeyond]

113. so what if they do. does it make your journey any less

so what if someone says believing in god is absurd. what could that possibly matter. do you really care what another thinks of you. or what you believe. or if it is right or wrong?????

[Toucano]

115. Yes, please provide the quote where I said...

anyone who believes in God is absurd.

This is the sad influence of the media on your thought process.

You're trying to argue against a point that wasn't even made which means you can't address what was said, so you can't even have a discussion.

[BushOut06]

121. I'm sorry - please elaborate then

You were the one who said it's not possible to respect all beliefs, because some beliefs are absurd. Your post was in direct response to my OP. So what point were you trying to make? That Christians are absurd? That religion is absurd? I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but it seemed to be a direct implication.

[Toucano]

129. Lord, it's so simple.

SOME BELIEFS ARE ABSURD

I believe that all 12 year old girls should have sex. It's my belief, so you must respect it.

I believe that medicine is a sin and I will not take my baby to a doctor. It's my belief. You must respect it.

I belive that using an umbrella defies the will of God, who made it rain and wants you wet. Umbrella manufacturers and users must be stoned. It's my belief. You must respect it.


____________________________________________________

You cried out that we must respect one another's beliefs. The point is that there must be another criteria other than It's My Belief. A civilization simply cannot exist that way. It sounds sweet and comforting, and we were all taught that it's the way to be, but it's wrong. Some beliefs simply cannot be "respected".

The irrational must be eschewed on all levels. Religious fervor is a mental illness.

Religion bashing on DU has always been and will always be. You must respect it. :)

You, Jimmy Carter, Jane Fonda, and everyone else can believe what you wish. But you cannot use It's My Belief as the sole justification for any public policy.

[BushOut06]

134. What does one have to do with the other?

"I believe that all 12 year old girls should have sex. It's my belief, so you must respect it.

I believe that medicine is a sin and I will not take my baby to a doctor. It's my belief. You must respect it.

I belive that using an umbrella defies the will of God, who made it rain and wants you wet. Umbrella manufacturers and users must be stoned. It's my belief. You must respect it."

You're comparing this to a major worldwide religion with over a billion followers, many of whom support civil rights, democracy, freedom? You're the one who started the whole "absurd" thread, then spun it off into a whole litany of totally unrelated examples.

[Toucano]

141. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

________________________________________________

"Major worldwide religion"??? That doesn't matter because you said we must respect one another's beliefs. Or did you mean only "some" beliefs must be respected?

Which ones? Who decides?


You've already shown your hypocrisy because you won't respect my belief that umbrellas are sinful! Sinful, I say!!! By the way, there were people who actually preached that. And bicycles, too. Hell bound on a high-wheeler the world was told it was.

[BushOut06]

158. No, you're being deliberately ridiculous

Please quote in my OP where I said that we have to respect ALL beliefs, no matter how absurd. I never said that. You're going through all sorts of contortions in order to twist my point around.

Hell, even though I don't agree with all aspects of Christianity - for instance, I believe in evolution - I still respect their belief. I just don't think it should be taught in public school, but if they want to believe that, it's fine with me. I'm not asking that everyone agree with Christianity or other religions - just show a little respect, please?

[CornField]

122. Then you are going to hate me

American to Muslims: This is your problem -- these people are warping your religion -- You need to fix this if you want our respect.

Me to Christians: This is your problem -- these people are warping your religion -- You need to fix this if you want our respect.

That really is the bottom line. Those of us outside the bounds of your religion have no avenue to effect a clean-up of what is going on. Only you (and other believers upset about the path your religion is taking) can do that.

[insane_cratic_gal]

148. Even if 'they" fixed it .. there still wouldn't be any respect

Most atheists I know are condescending to anyone who believes contrary to their own belief or lack of, but not all.

"They" being christians or muslims or jews or polka dotted underroos could fix everything wrong with it, and still be slammed for it based solely on their belief is in something you can't prove.(minus the roos of course)

Lets stop and think on that for a minute? Respect means no attacking a person, respectfully disagreeing, kindly without condescension. Only an elitist talks down to those they feel are inferior for lack of knowledge or belief they the elitist hold.

Being a person who does not subscribe to organized religion, I see no need to defend those who do, nor any reason to attack them. I've been guilty of placing a stereo type on "christan voters as being Bush bots". But not all are Bush-bots they just get cramped up in the lumping or name calling. Just as not all Atheist are elitists, they are just often lumped. I recongized my mistake and owned it.

What if we just practice what we preach? Set aside judgments on both sides of the issue walk the higher path (of humanity) and leave the name calling to those who need to be defined and labeled?

If they are not speaking to you directly, if you are not lumping yourself with a group, then you can walk away. I'm sure most here are far more then "just a christian" or "just an atheist" even more then Just a Christian democrat" Or atheist democrat Are you not mothers? fathers? brothers sisters? working? unemployed? Americans? Europeans? what about human?

However you choose to define yourself, you at the very least human. Perhaps we should just start from there, and move forward slowly, respecting each other as such.

[podnoi]

238. I don't understand your point

If you want Bushout to be a force against fundamentalists than how is constantly critisizing him helping (or any other progressive Christian?) I see a lot of misdirected anger but little wisdom and thoughtfullness on this topic.

[YankeyMCC]

124. How long did that "offend an atheist" thread stay up?

n/t

[Inland]

230. Well, it was an atheist that put it up.

And I have to say, it was all fun and games until somebody got their feelings hurt.

[rman]

135. how about some concrete examples instead of broad sweeping accusations

[BushOut06]

165. I'm sorry I didn't bookmark every single post I've seen

You don't have to look that hard. I'm not talking about genuine criticisms either. But it seems that anytime a post pops up regarding religion, it's an open invitation for the anti-religion bigots to come out swinging, painting all Christians as nutjobs. I know some of them are targeting the extremist element among Christians, but it usually comes out as a "broad sweeping accusation".

[rman]

187. You could have referred to one or two

There are bigots everywhere, there are bound to be a few amongst the 85,000 DU members.
Their low numbers don't stop them from being very vocal - but that doesn't change anything about the numbers.
In absence of evidence in support of your claim, i conclude you make this issue much bigger then it is.

[cantstandbush]

140. Last time I looked, 80% of Christians in this country supported Bush.

So I guess it might be fair to put most of them in the same boat.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

155. 80% of evangelicals, perhaps

Not 80% of Catholics or Episcopalians or Lutherans or United Methodists...

Please do NOT follow the evangelicals in referring only to themselves as Christians. That's been their shtick for the last thirty years or so. They're a movement that's only about a hundred years old, but they're the only Christians, according to them.

[rman]

188. 90% of Americans is Christian, Bush approval rating ~40%

you do the math

[titoresque]

142. Hey I have tolerance for Christians!!!

when I see them driving down the road with there
metal fish families stuck to their car and their "pro-life" and "got jesus?" bumper stickers and their "life is sacred" license plate frames and next to all that........their "viva Bush" magnet.........

I can't bring myself to flip them off.

[foreverdem]

146. Those are not Christians

They are fundamentalist extremists, which are found in every religion. They do not represent the majority.

[jonnyblitz]

159. are you sure the fundies AREN'T the majority?

there are liberal mega-churchs filled to capacity just like the fundies have, eh? If liberal christians are the majority why are they so silent or un-influential?

I believe the fundies ARE the real christians myself. they seem to adhere to their book of teachings the closest and take it more literally. Just saying. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

167. phenomenon on that allows me to keep my perspective in all this

in 2000 only 14% believed in creationism. 2002 started climbing 28%, 34%, 45% and the last number i saw around or after election time, it was up to..... 54%.

the fundie ism is of today is short lasted. the true fundie is only 14%.... maybe a little higher. but the reason it has escalated, the minister and preachers promoting and it isn't just the fundie that has jumped on board, the moderates have too. they are preaching things they would have never preached a decade ago like creationism. ministers and perishers pretty much knew it was a story not to be taken literally. they never tried to pass it off as a literal truth,.... in church. this is what we can thank bush for. a lot of this has developed from fear,.... and group think. but these people i dont believe are hardcore and they will awaken, and the number will get way smaller,.... again

on edit: i am seeing a shift. ministers are standing up and speaking out about the abuses. people these christians, need to start hearing christs words, get out of old testament preaching and back into new. they will follow

[TallahasseeGrannie]

210. Because we are quiet

and we are busy trying to do good things and we don't care about PR?

Besides, the Old T. is just history. The New T is where the action is.

[MissB]

143. Put the broad brush down and step away

Posts like these only serve to be divisive. The majority of the people on this board respect people's religious views. Any hostility you feel is in your head.

[Yollam]

149. I for one am getting tunred off by all this religion-whining...

There's at least a thread a week whining about how the huge majority of people in this country who claim to practice Christianity and have their churches on every other street corner, are somehow being persecuted by the big bad atheists.

It's not enough that in our homes and workplaces we can't speak freely about our atheism and the insanity of religion because we will be shouted down, ridiculed or condemned by you. You want to bring that stifling environment in here, too.

You may not run around preaching fire and brimstone like the worst fundies, but you do seem to share their persecution complex. To hear the way they holler about it, you'd think the ACLU and the rest of the "secular humanists" were on the verge of outlawing Christianity altogether.

You say you respect our beliefs. How can that be if you want to never hear them? I personally do NOT respect the beliefs of religious people. How could I, when I think they are utterly irrational. What I do respect is your right to hold those beliefs and express them, so long as you're not trying to force me to abide by them (which a lot of Christians do).


Anyway, I'm not lumping you with the fundies and hypocrites. You do point out a genuine dichotomy with those who are quick to bash US fundies, but not Muslim fundies. I've complained about the same double standard.

As for me, I think that religious insanity and extremism needs to be condemned roundly, whether it's Christians here or Muslims over there.

[kid a]

153. i second that !!!

[seabeyond]

154. people, a lot of people have crosses hanging from mirror

i have a peace sign. i feel like i am shunning christ because i have a peace sign and not a cross. the funny, this morning, with all my colorful stickers, and silver peace sign, i thought, well.... christ was about peace and love. really a peace sign isnt a bad thing.

my sons 2nd grade teacher told him how cool bush was and i was mad because we lost. she told me she thought he ought to see the other side. i told her,..... my father is a repug, my hubby is a repug, his parents, my two brothers, all our friends, all the kids friends, the christian school we went to and this school who has declared themselves repug. my children get the other side. my question is, when are all these children gonna get the OTHER side, wink

it is silliness in my mind for a christian to literally feel persecuted. i feel that too with the white male, lol.

just my opinion

[BushOut06]

161. I think the problem with that is this...

I respect people who are athiests. I even respect your right to question the existence of god, to criticize and question those with religious beliefs. It's when you start talking about the "insanity" of religion that you start to insult those around you who do hold religious beliefs. You may not intend to come across as insulting or condescending, but to those around you, it can be that way.

Now if you start to question Christians about their beliefs, and they start insulting you and telling you that you are going to hell, that is another matter altogether.

[Touchdown]

184. Are you for real?

"It's when you start talking about the "insanity" of religion that you start to insult those around you who do hold religious beliefs. "

And Matthew Sheppard thought he had problems. You've been so victimized. Let's dig Matt out of the grave so he can apologize for persecuting you.:puke:

[BushOut06]

185. Yes I am for real - are you?

Even though I'm not what would consider a practicing Christian, I still believe in its primary tenets. So does this mean that I am insane for supporting the insanity of religion? I have many close friends who are religious, go to church all the time, and would never even think of uttering a bad word towards anyone. Yet I suppose you want to lump them all into the same boat of insanity.

Like I said, it's one thing to have doubts or not to even believe in God. It's quite another to come out and insult those who do!

[Touchdown]

195. You already refused to provide proof.

You've been challenged to provide just one example of this "Christian bashing" as you call it, and you told that person to pound sand by saying they should do their own search.

You refused to respond to my point as well. You haven't a leg to stand on, and do not deserve the moniker of "victim". Try again next time.

[BushOut06]

199. Fine, here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=344219&mesg_id=344430

And I have seen other direct attacks on Christianity on this board and other DU forums. Like I said, I'm sorry that I didn't write down each and every one of them in my little journal, I didn't realize there would be a pop quiz on it. That doesn't mean that there haven't been attacks, however.

[seabeyond]

201. not to be argumentitive, and i mean it, i really am not, but....

i jsut do not see that as bashing. a lot of people in christian religion right now is advocating a god of wrath, and death punishment. if we dont want people to see christianity in htat lite, then we ought not to be that christian. and yes, tons of us are not that christian. the biggest joke is that dems arent christian. 80 something percent of nation christian. i would say that leaves a fair amount of christians in dem party. we can go after that falsehood. but personally, i think this person has a good argument and dont see it as bashing

[Touchdown]

202. I didn't see any "bashing" in that example.

What I saw was someone who took an extreme of Christian history, and pointed it out to you, that if you don't work for rectifying that (and how can you, when your too busy bitching about us?), then you are complicit in it. It's a valid argument.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

212. Do you really believe

if you don't work for rectifying something then you are complicit in it?

Really? You REALLY believe that?

How are you doing with female circumcism? Organized crime in Russia?

I just don't feel that level of responsibility for the world. Maybe I'm a meaner old broad than I thought I was.

[Inland]

228. *spitake* Dude, they were called "evil"

If "evil" isn't going to qualify as bashing, I'm not even going to bother to post the one calling all religious "nutbags", clinically insane, capitulating to peer pressure like a thirteen year old girl buying a brand of jeans, afraid of death, unable to thinkf or themselves.

Because it's quite clearly bashing. It's just bashing you think is correct. Which is another whole crock of shit in itself. When someone calls for rectifying the wrong done to the Amalekites, I know it's someone looking for a reason that he can hand out a bashing and nothing is going to get in his way.

[Yollam]

196. Difference between irrational and insanity

Believing in a magical higher power when there is no empirical evidence to indicate one exists is irrational, but if it makes people more content, it's certainly not insane.

But committing acts of violence, or forcing others to follow the tenets of your religion is insane, wack, bananas.

If you find that insulting, I don't know what to tell you. It's the way I see it and it's not intended as an insult, except to the wackjobs who keep trying to institute compulsory religion in this and other countries.

[Beelzebud]

172. Well said!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

214. Ah....I see the problem

you wrote "It's not enough that in our homes and workplaces we can't speak freely about our atheism and the insanity of religion because we will be shouted down..."

Well, I'll shout you down (politely of course) if you tell me anything I am doing or believing is "insane."

Do you see my point? You didn't just say you can't speak freely about atheism but you increased the rhetoric yourself to "insanity" and that pretty much makes you a fundamentalist atheist who thinks everyone should believe (sanely) as he/she does.

Same book, different page. Intolerance 101.

[Inland]

221. Not "how the huge majority of people in this country" are persecuted

Just the liberal democrats on DU.

But it's pretty funny that you refuse to make a distinction between christians. Hey, tell a christian on DU that he's enabling conservatives, believes in the tooth fairy, is clinically insane, has a pathological fear of death, is irrational, is unethical by defintion, and when somebody takes issue, pretends it's as if they were defending Pat Robertson taking aim at Hugo Chavez.

Here's a clue. Save your hate for the people who deserve it.0

[nolabels]

163. What goes around comes around

The difference between believers and nonbelievers is not what they know or think but how much need they have for you to be in agreement with them.

An non-religious person will say the sun will come up tomorrow but doesn't know for sure how he could survive without that happening. The believer thinks that god makes the sun come up but is not sure if it good or not without contrasting the opinions of others.

What ever happened to the good old days when it was okay to disagree and still be able to be Friends

[Ron Green]

164. Maybe our job as Progressives is not to bash, but to encourage liberalism

in religion. The tolerant "factions" of all religions are a place where believers can worship, study and make sense of the mysteries of life without going tribal on others with different beliefs.

I believe that religion is absolutely necessary to keep uneducated masses of people within a reasonable social structure; only those with a highly-developed sense of moral reasoning can operate fairly without theological rules and regulations. However, to discourage the fundamentalist wings of these religions ought to be the policy and effort of all progressive people. The "middle way" is always the best, but the middle has been moved so far to the right that we've lost sight of it.

[Yollam]

198. What you say may be true to a degree...

...but it's so condescending and elitist it's nauseating.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

215. Many of the greatest progressive movements

have a religious base. I'm thinking of MLK, Ghandi, liberation theolgoies in Latin America...

Religion is capable of providing a strong motivator for social justice.

The issue isn't religion per se, but how its followers use it.

[Bill McBlueState]

173. some things need to be bashed

Most of us believe in what Christ taught, that we should not judge anyone ourselves, and that we should love our neighbor as ourself.

If that were the extent of Jesus's teachings, there would be little opposition to Christianity.

But the claims in the Bible that unbelievers will be tormented for eternity will not work if our goal is a peaceful, just society. We can have no hope for the survival of humanity if each culture in the world has a book that they say God wrote, and that book encourages the conversion (or murder) of those who don't accept their God.

I think Islam is more of a threat to the human condition, but only because Christians as a whole have gotten better at discarding the uglier parts of their sacred texts.

[tlsmith1963]

174. I Have Only Said I Hate *Fundamentalists*

Because they have a fascist streak a mile wide. If someone is religious but not completely wacko like they are, I have no problem with them. And it isn't just fundamentalist Christians that I dislike. I also cannot stand those fundamentalist Muslims who join terrorist groups like al-Qaeda.

Tammy

[Initech]

189. That's my main problem, too.

I have no problem with Christianity and could care less if you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Deist, Atheist, Agnostic, whatever. I just freaking hate when the fundamentalists try to make their agenda my agenda.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

213. Most fundamentalists, are apolitical

in my experience, and I live in the deep southern Bible Belt. But it is this new breed of politically savvy fundies that are dangerous. They are educated enough to be dangerous but not enough to be flexible.

[Bzzzz]

179. I for one am sick...

of xtians trying to control what I can and cannot watch on television. If you people don't like the episode of Will and Grace's "cruci-fixins"...don't watch it, same goes with "The Book of Daniel"...although it's too late...you got your way and they won't be shown. This is fast becoming a facist society...xtians evidently don't remember their history!!!

[seabeyond]

182. from what i saw with book of daniel, what scared fundies so

was the protrayal of christ. that he is in heart, knows sees all..... including our flaws and in our non perfect he loves us anyway. were as the fundie teaches from youngest age we are all sinners.....that we have to work for christs love. contradictive to that whole show. more we have to earn love, instead of it just being, that we are loved. christs message

[stepnw1f]

190. Flame Bait

I don't see religion bashing on DU. One here, one there, maybe... But I do see hypersensitive people who every other month or so come out accusing DUers of doing just that without providing proof. So go _ yourself.

[Wordie]

191. K&R... It's important to make these distinctions, imho. eom

[FlaGranny]

197. Spirituality, belief in God, belief in

the Great Spirit, whatever, it's all just fine with me. Where I draw the line is in organization of belief. One's own belief is always the "right" belief. When one person organizes with others of like mind, then there is reinforcement of one's own rightness and righteousness. If an organized religion actually teaches respect for others' beliefs and has a live and let live philosophy, all well and good. When organized religion teaches it is the only true religion and everyone else is evil and going to hell, as happens when the religion is run by selfish men with small minds, it is bad. When religion tries to impose its own morality on others, it is bad.

Show me a religion that preaches that it does not know if it is the one true religion (only God knows that), one that teaches that nonebelievers are just as worthy of respect, that all humanity should be treated equally, that God loves everyone, and every good person has a place by God, then I will respect that religion.

Instead every person who belongs to an organized religion, even non-fundies, believe that their's is the one true religion, and therefore everyone else is "not of them," different.

No war could ever be fought if every person believed humanity was all one family. The only time you can feel justified in killing someone (unless you're criminally insane) if if the person you are killing can somehow be dehumanized. If you are killing someone who you believe is damned anyhow, it becomes a lot easier.

[Sugarcoated]

241. FlaGrannie

Well put.

[Maat]

243. Uh, o.k., I will show you a religion (church) in which the church ..

states that it does not know if it is or is not the only true religion, one that honors all spiritual paths, one that teaches that nonbelievers are just as worthy of respect, that all humanity should be honored and treated equally, that God loves everyone, and that everyone transitions successfully. It is also a faith that does not believe in 'sin' or 'hell.'

Church of Religious Science - www.religiousscience.org and/or www.rsintl.org .

I wouldn't belong to the church if things were any other way.

[leftofthedial]

200. you say "banish us from society"

like that's a bad thing

[beam me up scottie]

220. Red herring.

Most atheists AND believers on DU do differentiate between fundamentalists and moderate christians.

Many of us would love to see the end of predatory religions, not the end of religious believers.

Criticizing religion is NOT bashing people of faith.

[podnoi]

233. Agreed!

There are a great many Christians and other people of faith on DU but they do not frequent this area, I wonder why? I know myself, as a progressive Democrat I would like to communicate and stratagize about reaching those of faith, and have an opportunity to meet other progressives of faith, but there is no way on this forum to have a reasonable discussion on these matters here.

[papau]

240. I agree :-)

:-)

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

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