DNA tests contradict Mormon scripture.

[Quixote1818]

Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted
DNA tests contradict Mormon scripture. The church says the studies are being twisted to attack its beliefs.

By William Lobdell, Times Staff Writer


From the time he was a child in Peru, the Mormon Church instilled in Jose A. Loayza the conviction that he and millions of other Native Americans were descended from a lost tribe of Israel that reached the New World more than 2,000 years ago.

"We were taught all the blessings of that Hebrew lineage belonged to us and that we were special people," said Loayza, now a Salt Lake City attorney. "It not only made me feel special, but it gave me a sense of transcendental identity, an identity with God."

A few years ago, Loayza said, his faith was shaken and his identity stripped away by DNA evidence showing that the ancestors of American natives came from Asia, not the Middle East.

"I've gone through stages," he said. "Absolutely denial. Utter amazement and surprise. Anger and bitterness."

Continued at:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mormon16feb16,0,5561316.story?page=1

[Charlie Brown]

1. Common sense contradicts Mormon scripture

The Indians were not descended from some of the lost tribes of Israel.

[Quixote1818]

8. That explains why Bush's aproval in Utah is still in the 60's.

Lack of common sense.:eyes:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

13. common sense says you don't form a new religion after licking a lizard

The guy went on a trip after LICKING A LIZARD!! and people believed him! I find it fascinating is a twisted sort of socio-psychotic kind of way.

[MichaelHarris]

35. where

can I find that lizard? Mmmmmmm party lizards.

[Hardrada]

60. The lizard is now in the Lounge.

[FatDave]

15. Common sense contradicts all scripture.

The only thing other religions have over the LDS is the passage of time.

[Charlie Brown]

20. All Scripture?

Common sense proves that Jesus never existed and that the Buddha never attained enlightenment?

Common sense contradicts a significant amount of scripture, but could never possibly compromise all.

[Katherine Brengle]

26. True, parts of all religious traditions are based in history, which makes

all of them at least partially believable.

However, I've ruled organized religion out as a whole--dogma is bad for the soul.

[FatDave]

42. OK, OK, common sense contradicts most scripture

I was using the term "scripture" fairly loosely. My bad.

[NVMojo]

54. Right FECKING ON!!!

[Zhade]

78. This ex-Mormon says - no kidding!

Smith was a known fraud in his own day. How his nonsensical fairy tale continues as a growing belief system astounds me.

[ret5hd]

2. deal with it, jose...

you're just another schmoe that got lied to by religion. join the rest of us, it's good over here: no threats of eternal punishment, guilt free masturbation, and no god that really really loves you but is real real bad with money.

[Quixote1818]

3. Guilt free masturbation LOL!

I think they like the guilty masturbation because it makes them feel bad!

[ComerPerro]

6. Oh, no! I was masturbating, and then I walked in a caught me!

[Goblinmonger]

87. I think that way they can dirty talk to themselves

"you are a naughty, naughty sinner."

[CrazyOrangeCat]

4. !!!

:spray:

[cynatnite]

5. For some reason this reminds me of 'Angels in America'

:shrug:

[Erika]

7. The Mormon Church believes all men can become Gods

of their own planets equal to our God. Women are subject to being called up to heaven or left in the ground by their husband. It is up to the prerogative of the man.

Yes, they believe that the American continents were inhabited by the lost tribes of Israel.

There are many good Mormon folk. But they maintain a mixture of naivety and ultimate power that is pathetic.

That is one reason they vote GOP.

Regardless, they must wake up.

[cynatnite]

10. So true...

There are many good Mormon folk. But they maintain a mixture of naivety and ultimate power that is pathetic.

What you said resonated with me.

We used to live in Rexburg, ID. It's a predominantly Mormon town. Many we knew were the nicest people you could ever meet. They were caring and treated us well for the most part.

[Erika]

18. Rexburg and Ricks College?

Predominantly Mormon? I'd say Rexburg was 99.9% Mormon.

They tend to act so humble all the time waiting to become rulers of their own world. They hush the fact that women are totally subject to the calling of the man.

They will also pay 20% more for a product of one of their members than purchase the same product at 20% less from a non member.

They are the true definition of sheep with the world's greatest death plan in mind. Ruler of their own world.

[medeak]

38. ditto! n/t

[cynatnite]

39. Yep!

I met a woman there who was divorced from her husband. He could remarry if he wanted, but if she wanted to, she had to get his permission. It was weird.

The friends we had who were Mormon were more like normal couples anywhere else. Even they acknowledged how bad Rexburg was when it came to the church. The influence in every single part of that town from the schools, the police force, local government and more is just sickening. They didn't like it one bit.

We lived there for five years and when of our friends married a Mormon guy they moved to Pocatello. They couldn't stand living in Rexburg anymore. We still keep in touch from time to time and they tell me that almost everyone we were friends with all moved away. I was told Provo was the only Mormon town that was worse than Rexburg.

[Erika]

48. Yeah, Provo and Rexburg are twins. n/t

[Craig3410]

53. This Rexburg?

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/politicalInfo.php?locIndex=7053

Presidential politics: Rexburg is in Madison County, which supported George W. Bush in the last two presidential elections. According to unofficial vote totals for 2004, Bush received 10,693 votes and John Kerry received 826 votes.

In the November 2000 election, Madison County overwhelmingly supported Bush. Countywide, 7,941 people voted for Bush and 816 voted for Gore. Nader received 37 votes.

10,693 to 826 in '04 and 7,941 to 816 in '00.

:wow:

Real bastion of liberalism there.

[Erika]

59. Yep that Rexburg

But their young men don't go to Iraq, they go on missions.

[NVMojo]

55. I was in Rexburg last summer ...that place felt so STEPFORD!

My son just graduated from high school in Rigby. I thank the heavens all the time that he survived it there and never bought the Joseph Smith crap! I raised a skeptical kid, hallelujah!

[Erika]

61. He escaped the tentacles

Good for him.

[Strelnikov_]

62. Four Years In Rexburg In The Mid-Nineties

Beautiful town, sportsman's paradise.

Pretty much kept to myself, but no complaints. Mormons make good neighbors, as you don't have to worry about the teenage kid next door throwing a party when the parents are away.

Overall, a pleasant experience.

[Erika]

64. Yeah, as long as you wish no independent thought

No problem at all.

[Strelnikov_]

66. Sorry I Enjoyed My Time There, Didn't Know I Had To Wear

my liberal hairshirt.

In that era, my main interest was going fishing/hiking/camping most weekends. As I said, sportsman's paradise.

And, quite frankly, I met a number of other fairly liberal/progressive/ live and let live types.

I have lived enough places that I have learned to adapt somewhat.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strelnikov_]

70. So, Living In A Town That Is Predominately Reich-Wing

And noting that I thought the town was attractive (in a physical sense) and was overall a pleasant experience (due to access to world-class trout fishing and backpacking) is grounds for implying that I somehow have much in common with the Reich-Wing.

I will say this. I preferred living among the Mormons versus the Baptists and Evangelicals in SW Missouri. At least with the Mormons, you knew the limits and hang-ups.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strelnikov_]

74. So, You Are Calling Me Out As A Freeper, Simply Because I

stated that I enjoyed my time in a predominately Reich-Wing area?

[Strelnikov_]

75. And To Think Your Attack Is A Result Of My Simply Acknowledging

to another member that I, too, had lived in a town they had lived in and also found it to be a reasonable place to live.

[Erika]

65. Mid 90's

That's when that Mormon Ob-gyn doctor got convicted of lewd and lascivious conduct and lost his license.

Don't try to pretend all is well in that area. Do a google.

[Strelnikov_]

67. What Is Your Problem?

I simply stated that I enjoyed my stay, and thought it was a beatiful town.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THAT?

[Erika]

69. Huh?

Enjoy what you may. Just don't call it other than what it is.

[Strelnikov_]

71. And What Would That Be?

Other than any other heavily Reich-Wing enclave?

[MichaelHarris]

33. In a book I have about

America's atomic bomb testing the author suggests that the reason the sites were chosen is because the fallout would end up over Mormon communities and since they were so patriotic few would complain. She even produced documents to that effect.

[cynatnite]

40. Name and author?

I'd really love to check it out. The INEEL is a big deal where we used to live.

[MichaelHarris]

46. I knew someone would ask so

I dug it out. "American Ground Zero: The Secret Nuclear War" by Carole Gallagher

Be forewarned, it's a sad story. So many sick from the tests. If I remember correctly the Mormon part is when she talks about St George Utah.

[cynatnite]

47. Thanks! n/t

[Erika]

73. Yeah St.George Utah n/t

[WinkyDink]

9. It's not nice to mock, but every time I think of Mormons,

I sing, "I know an angel named Bony Moroni!"

Yeah, I'll burn for it.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

11. Ba da bing!

:popcorn:

[CrazyOrangeCat]

14. Ha !!!

(We really need a musical smiley for these instances . . .)

;)

[Dem2theMax]

76. As the saying goes, ask and ye shall receive.

(Even if I am hours late in doing so. LOL.) Take your pick. :)

[Dogmudgeon]

12. It's a Mystery o' the Faith, me boy!

Anyway, if the bedrock of one's faith is a superstition, that faith is of very little value. I would think that faith is expressed in action and conduct, not in adherence to a set of beliefs.

Of course, I might be wrong about that.

--p!

[Charlie Brown]

16. Before this thread gets out of hand

Let me just say that all of the Mormons I've met are some of the most compassionate, respectable people I've ever known, and I'd never imply that their beliefs are not subject to the same protections as all others.

I hope this thread does not become an excuse to diss Mormons, who, I'll remind everyone here, are also US citizens.

[Erika]

19. Charlie, I was baptized Mormon and my brother is a bishop

My folks did temple work.

[medeak]

27. old high school bud is a bishop

and you can't believe the porn he wrote in my yearbook.

I went to Mutual..the best parties in town. Thank gawd they got it all out before they married in the temple

[medeak]

43. please send them this

http://www.exmormon.org/

very good site.

[Erika]

49. They would dismiss it. They like the Mormon death plan

where the men become rulers of their own planets. Such a power trip.

[tenshi816]

92. I'm assuming you're no longer part of the Mormon Church.

How did you make the break? I'm sorry for being nosy and feel free to tell me to mind my own business, but it's a subject that greatly interests me. I lived in Salt Lake City for a couple of years before moving to the UK and I had a Mormon boyfriend. Well, he always said he was an "ex"-Mormon, but I wasn't sure that he had entirely declared his independence and it kept the relationship from becoming as serious as it probably would have otherwise. BF's family lived in Provo and his mother in particular put a lot of pressure on him to give up the drinking and the illicit sex and the pot smoking and come back to the Church. I still think about him from time to time to this day and hope life turned out well for him. He was a really nice guy, but he was certainly troubled because of his Mormon upbringing and his desire not to live that way.

Edited 'cause I left out a word.

[medeak]

24. learned a lot from opening a branch of company in SLC

and I beg to differ with you. We were forced to merge with Utah company...they happily took all our vehicles, computers, tools ect...and even tho instructed to share contracts with us (as we did with them...lucrative hospital contract) they chose to give all their work to another company (although sitting along side in same office) as we weren't in "the good book"...tithing thing.

Pretended to be best friends until they realized we weren't converting.

edited to say...out of 40 people we met only one person was a genuine guy.. we lost all our vehicles and computers when we bought our company back although it was in contract. Most larcenous pieces of crap I've ever encountered..and in our mechanical contracting field you meet a lot of them.

[Sydnie]

50. I agree with you - batshit crazy!

My Aunt is a mormon. She wasn't born a mormon, she married a mormon. She raised her daughter (from a previous marriage) as a mormon. My cousin used to live with us for a bit when I was young. She partied harder than anyone I ever knew. she got married to a mormon, had a baby, divorced him, married again, had an affair with the first husband, got pregnant, divorced hubby number 2, remarried hubby number one, had the baby, divorced him and married someone else. I think she is probably on her 6th or 7th marriage by now.

But, back to my aunt. She was always the strong sister in my mother's family. You know the type that bullied the weaker ones into doing what she wanted them to do even if it didn't fit with who they were as people. My mother wasn't a very religious person in her later years but when she died my aunt took over all the arrangements no matter how much my siblings and I objected. She had a mormon preacher give the service for my mother. My siblings and I were livid!

The greed part come in here. She had bullied my mother into naming her as executrix of her will so my aunt made us take her to court to get the things from her estate that she told us the weeks before her death that she wanted us to have. We had witnesses to my mother's wishes but my aunt wanted it all herself. We actually had to sue her to force her to follow my mother's wishes. Even at that, we knew the things that had been "disappeared" from the house and knew that she had taken them. This woman was almost 80 years old when she did this. She didn't want the things really, she just didn't want US to have anything and wanted her daughter to inherit not only her things, but my mother's as well. Greediest sucker I ever met in my life!

She used to crack me up as a child when I would hear her giving witness to the evils of caffeine one minute and then see her go home and down cokes (pre caffeine free days) by the case. She lived in denial of her daughter's behavior even while paying for each divorce for her.

The daughter at one point stopped going to church but her son continued. He finally went on a mission to Japan, but was sent home for some misdeed or other.

I am tempted to print out this article and mail it to her with just a big "HA HA HA" written across it.

She is the type to wear the magic underwear and think that how ever she acts is ok because she has been through the temple, is listed in the catacomb's of names, always keeps a well stocked store room. She makes me want to :puke: just thinking about her. She gives the truly religious a bad name.

[NVMojo]

56. Mormons are allowed to lie if it furthers their kingdoms

[Greyhound]

83. Like all of the dominator religions, it's admirable and a good way

to score points with your "god" if you lie, cheat, steal, even kill others as long as they have a different belief. Killing in the name of god is essential to intimidate and subjugate the new "converts".

[Quixote1818]

77. Half my family is Mormon

I have no problem with the Mormons other than I disagree with them on their scripture. I actually find myself sticking up for the Mormons when other Christians start ripping on them as though their religion is better than the Mormons.

I agree that this should not become a diss Mormons thread. People should stick with the facts.

[Ikonoklast]

17. Guess there is an upside though

He doesn't have to wear the magic underpants anymore. No more wedgies for Yahweh.

[Erika]

21. Yahweh is Sevent Day Adventist n/t

[Ikonoklast]

30. Uhhh, well, in the entire Book of Mormon

Yahweh is the Creator and the Messiah.

[Erika]

34. No one in the Church refers to God as Yahweh n/t

[MichaelHarris]

22. Rile those Mormon's up and they'll blow you up.

Didn't they blow up a radio guy once?

[Erika]

23. not to my knowledge n/t

[MichaelHarris]

31. A Denver radio talk guy

was blown up in the 80's I think for talking about Mormon history and how it was based in lies.

[Erika]

36. Was he Mormon?

Mormons don't do violence. They have the least number of troops in Iraq per state population.

[MichaelHarris]

41. Dunno

don't remember much about the story except some documents had been uncovered telling a different history of the whole Young/Smith story. He was going to read them on his radio show but someone blew up his car.

[tenshi816]

79. I remember that!

Wasn't he ambushed and shot when he left the radio station where he worked?

[charlie]

80. Alan Berg

He wasn't murdered for yammering about Mormons, though. It was a bunch of white supremacists who killed him (one of them had been a Mormon in his youth, maybe that's the connection MH is thinking of).

[tenshi816]

81. Yeah, that's the one -

I finally remembered the name. Here's the Wikipedia reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg

[charlie]

82. I've often wondered

how things would've turned out had Berg lived. He was an combative suffer-no-fools liberal riding a rising tide of popularity who looked to be destined for a national audience. And he preceded Limbaugh by years in the market. If he hadn't been killed, the Oxycontin fucktard's ascendency might've been scotched and the wrecking of the liberal brand may have been stymied.

[tenshi816]

86. I never actually heard Berg's show,

and I left to live in England in the spring of 1986 so the entire talk radio phenomenon sort of passed me by. I had never heard of Rush/Sean/O'Reilly and the other RW talk dickheads until a couple of years ago. I was flabbergasted to find out how popular they were, and until Air America came along there didn't seem to be any liberal counterparts. Even now that there are progressive alternatives, the personalities on the left don't garner the same audience levels because (my opinion here) the progressive personalities tend to tell uncomfortable truths instead of just pulling stuff out of their asses. What Fox and Rush, et al, do is simply confirm the worldview of their audience without challenging them to do any thinking for themselves, whereas people on the left want all those pesky facts.

We have talk radio stations in the UK, but there's nothing that compares to the RW idiocy in the States. I just find it so depressing that so many people believe in what someone like Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly says. As far as I'm concerned, they, like Ann Coulter, are guilty of hate crimes.

But yeah, interesting point you had about Berg and what might have happened had he lived. I do wish we had people on the left who could pull in the audiences Limbaugh does.

[charlie]

88. Berg was every bit

the mean ranting polemicist Limbaugh is. Only much smarter. And without the unctuous smugness.

I was around during Limbaugh's rise and was flabbergasted myself how quickly he became the Svengali for Dumbfuck Nation. Before he became a phenom, he was a regular on Morton Downey's TV show (another haranguing winger you might have been lucky enough to miss) -- and the howling fratboys in Morton's audience COULD NOT stand him. He routinely elicited jeers and guffaws with his imperious claims of Bringing The Truth to America and the camera would often pan to the side of the stage, catching Mort making jerkoff motions. Within a year or two, he was a Republican kingmaker and the same conservo-idiots loved him. Go fucking figure.

[tenshi816]

89. But how did Limbaugh do it?

What propelled him into the limelight? Was it before or after FOX News started up? I've only ever heard snippets of him online and find him repugnant, and it really does make me uneasy that so many people believe every word that spews from his massive piehole. Rush and the others like him probably sweat hate; it's what they live for and it disturbs me greatly to see it happening in my country. The USA has taken a very sinister wrong turn when a person as vile as Rush Limbaugh (or Bill or Sean or Michael or Ann) is taken seriously.

What happened to Morton Downey? You're right, I don't know anything about him.

[charlie]

93. Long before FOX News

Limbaugh, loathesome as he is, is a self-generated phenomenon. Of course, he had plenty of help from the rightwing network of thinktanks, congressmen, pundits, and publications that coalesced during Reagan, but he alone saw the opportunity and ran with it.

As to how, I dunno. I was taken aback by the depth of devotion he inspired early on. The right has always been in thrall of big-stick authoritarians, give 'em a tough-talking Daddy and they'll follow him anywhere, but I didn't think that fatuous gasbag had what it took to become THE ONE. Shows what I know.

Downey came to an ignominious end. His TV ratings slipping, he concocted a ridiculous scenario about being attacked in an airport bathroom by skinheads, showing up on news reports battered, with swastikas magic markered all over his head. It didn't take long for his ploy to be exposed and he lost his show shortly afterward. He was also a chainsmoker, spent most of his time on air enveloped in a blue cloud, and would snarl at anyone who gave him guff about his habit -- yer a sheep, there's NO evidence cigarettes are as harmful as they're held to be, only "pablum-puking liberals" (his most famous catchphrase) believe that guff. So, it was no surprise when he was diagnosed with a nasty case of lung cancer years later. Nor was it much of a surprise, after surgery to remove a lung and half of another, when he was reborn as a wet-eyed earnest liberal ("The tobacco companies LIED to us, kids. You've gotta believe me, they're scum!"). His sub-basement credibility tanked further and he died within months.

[Greyhound]

84. Yep, shot him to death in his driveway. On the bright side, they didn't

kill his Old English Sheepdog, that was with him in the car. BTW he (Berg) was the prototype for Limbaugh and the other slugs that followed.

[charlie]

85. He was also the inspiration

for an intense Oliver Stone movie called Talk Radio.

[El Supremo]

90. I thought it was an Airedale. A fuzzy Airedale.

I lived here in Denver then. Sorry, but I could not stand Berg's rants. However, I was sorry that he got killed in a hate crime.

[Greyhound]

94. May have been, I just remember a picture in the R M News.

He's called a liberal Jewish talk radio host in Wiki. I never thought of him as liberal, just a fascist dick before it was cool.

[SoCalDem]

25. One look at their facial structure, body style TELLS you

they are asian in lineage.. as are Polynesians, Aleuts, native americans,... The Chinese were a very advanced society, there is no doubt that they took to the sea..and the landbridge to the Americas was once passable..there was a great "mixing" of what peoples there were a long time ago..

[liberalhistorian]

28. Although very unfortunate for

Mormons, it's very lucky for Joseph Smith that DNA testing didn't exist during his time, and when he founded the church and wrote its "doctrine."

[FreedomAngel82]

29. How sad

:( I do feel bad for the guy.

[Erika]

32. You feel sorry for Joseph Smith?

OK. And Brigham Young. And all their wives.

[txindy]

44. I think she's sorry for Jose A. Loayza, the guy who felt betrayed by lies.

I seriously doubt it was Smith, Young, or anyone stupid enough to marry them.

[Erika]

37. One other reason why Mormons vote GOP

is because democratic governors made them sign a pledge that they weren't polygamous before they were allowed to vote. The Mormons have never forgiven the democrats.

[NVMojo]

57. ...and I will never forgive Mormons for all their deceit ...

[Erika]

63. Don't try to start a business in that area if you're not Mormom

They'll destroy you and they've been known to burn bars. It will be their way.

[Ediacara]

45. DNA is only one piece of thousands of pieces of data

showing that Native Americans came to the Americas in three or more waves, all of them from Asia... The retention of this plank of faith by the LDS Church, imho, is bizarre.

[daleo]

51. Hundreds of millions of people still believe in Noah's Ark

And a literal Garden of Eden, etc., regardless of the internal inconsistencies and scientific impossibilities.

People can ignore science when they want to. This fellow just needs to understand that Satan planted that DNA, to test his faith.

[Erika]

52. But Satan did so while in the Garden of Eden IN Iraq

They were all Iraqis.

[EFerrari]

58. Oh, for pete's sake. How THICK is that bubble? n/t

[El Supremo]

91. Since we're picking on Mormons...

does anybody know the words to a little ditty my dad told me but I have since forgotten?

Something about Brigham Young's statue in Temple Square. About his face facing one direction and his rear another?

BTW, I have never met a LDSer I didn't like. I general they are very nice, honest and tolerant people.