The president of my brother's HS (Catholic priest) was just accused

[deadparrot]

of sexual abuse.

:puke:

It's not the first time either. The priest at my Catholic grade school molested the older brother of a friend of mine when I was in second grade.

I've been a lapsed Catholic for a long time, but every time I hear about something like this, it makes me want to :nuke: :grr: :cry: At the moment, I want nothing more than to scream and beat the living shit out of something.

Sorry. Had to vent.

[Critters2]

1. I keep hearing that most priests are good, hardworking

morally upright guys. If so, why aren't they outraged by all of this?

The Catholic Church is corrupt to its very core.

[benburch]

2. I know two women whose virginity went to RC priests.

So it cannot be all that uncommon.

[Erika]

3. Take Comfort in knowing your chosen church

approves the death penalty, while hating gays and the pro-choice women. They also are far less than honest in their pedophile suits. They are getting so exclusionary, their donations will again fall.

[deadparrot]

4. Not chosen.

Haven't been to Mass since high school. Didn't consider myself a Catholic long before that.

[cmkramer]

35. Deleted

[tocqueville]

7. While you are at it why don't you include muslims in that bunch...

the positions of the Catholic Church are not very different from the majority of the OTHER Xian denominations in the US... At least they don't push for the creationism crap....

see my other post

it's incredible how biased people can be... even on the left

[Cronus Protagonist]

8. Bias is warranted when the subject is pedophilia, bigotry, etc.

You wouldn't be suggesting we should support the bigots and child molesters, are you? And if not, how can one not be biased one way or the other on these topics? Surely bias on the side of the victims is called for, and is perfectly appropriate.

Some Muslim clerics and the Pope have my equal contempt. Not for their religion, but for their bigotry. Having said that, the Pope could kiss my ass, but I wouldn't let his nasty foul mouth anywhere near me.

[beam me up scottie]

12. No, I think the poster's

asking for some tolerance for the OP, since he WAS criticizing the pedophiles, not defending the church.

[tocqueville]

13. Bigots are bigots, molesters are molesters whatever faith

and should be condemned as such

the problem is that it's a recurrent theme that the Catholics in the USA are a bit more bigot and a bit more molesters than the other denominations, when facts show that it is not the case.

I am not defending any molesters or bigots, very far from me. But singling out a single group is only making the agenda of the groups whose denomination is in power today (Bush isn't a catholic isn't he ?) and making them appear as "saints" when in fact they are as bad if not even worse in some cases than the ones pointed out...

Bias is always wrong, because bias is a lie. And you perfectly know that with bias I disn't mean bias towards the victims, but bias against certain groups whitin a group of responsibles.

So blame MOSTLY the catholics for the evils of religion, and I know who the winners are. And it's certainly not the secular honest people...

[Critters2]

34. So you're blaming the Catholic sex abuse scandal

on the United Methodist Church? That is rich!!

Why can't Catholics just admit that abusing children is always and everywhere a bad thing, and stop looking for someone else to blame?

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. Facts show that the Catholic church is bigoted

Example: Along with the Mormons, both of them have been successfully working in concert nationwide to ban acceptance of same-sex marriage. Both of them view homosexuals as pariahs. But the Catholic church also has a history of protecting an even more generally vilified group, pedophiles, while the Mormon church has a history of allowing marriages to minor children.

I could think of more, but your argument semes to be that we should bash equally, not one in particular, as if it's somehow wrong to point to injustice caused by one group unless one points to all instances thereof. That's a fallacy. We can point to the Catholic church's systematic protection and promotion of pedophiles and pedophilia as a particularly egregious and ongoing situation, and hold their patent hypocrisy up for contempt without needing to mention any others at all.

I wish I could report the masses of Catholic parishoners rising up against their corrupt and criminal leadership, but I would be lying. I wish I could report all the Christing brethren rising up against their own leadership to make it known that they're not like George W. Bush and his ilk, but again, I would be lying.

If that's bias for you, I'm sorry you think that, but it's really a call for justice to be delivered, and one that I wish were coming from the rank and file, yet it is not.

[beam me up scottie]

10. That's a little harsh,

in this case, don't you think?

Catholics on DU have been extremely vocal about their anger against the church.

Many of them refuse to attend because of it and are the first ones to criticize the Vatican's policies.

[tocqueville]

16. 70 Child Abuse Accusations Against Churches Each Week, Most Are Protestant

Christianity Today, Week of April 1

Weblog: 70 Child Abuse Accusations Against Churches Each Week—and Most Are Protestants
Plus: The latest on the Burnhams, who killed MLK, and many other stories from online sources around the world.
Compiled by Ted Olsen | posted 04/05/2002

Protestants have their own clergy scandals

Weblog is getting deluged with letters about a recent article on what the clergy abuse scandal means for evangelicals. Many readers didn't like part of the article's report, which suggested that clergy abuse of minors is less common in Protestant churches than it is in Roman Catholic parishes. Don't blame the messenger: That's what the interviewees and other reports said.

An Associated Press report, however, has an opposing view. "While data are sketchy, at least one expert believes the incidence of clergy molesting young children may be about as frequent—or infrequent—in Protestantism as it is in Catholicism," reports AP religion writer Richard N. Ostling. The expert is Penn State historian Philip Jenkins, who says Catholic cases get exaggerated and Protestant cases get ignored. Jenkins admits he has no hard numbers to back up his case, but says neither do those who say it's more common in Catholicism.

Actually, some hard numbers have surfaced from Christian Ministry Resources, the publisher of Church Law & Tax Report (the editor, Richard Hammar, was quoted in the earlier CT online article). "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers," summarizes The Christian Science Monitor. "Over the past decade, the pace of child-abuse allegations against American churches has averaged 70 a week."

Weblog has had a lot on the clergy abuse scandals, but for regular updates, be sure to check out Ponyter.org's Clergy Abuse Tracker and Yahoo's full coverage area

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/112/51.0.html

something I had to vent...

[Hardrada]

18. No, Protestant pastors

run off with somebody's wife or have a tumble with the church organist in the choir loft!! Such has been what my relatives have told me in hushed tones.

[tocqueville]

22. that's not what the statistics says...

see my other posts

that they fool also around with adults is another story. It's more difficult for Catholic priests, but it probably happens too.

[Critters2]

29. Your other post

said there are no hard numbers available. So much for statistics.

And a huge part of the difference is the way the hierarchy deals with the problem. In my denomination, I'd be placed on IMMEDIATE leave with the first hint of an accusation. If the accusation were of illegal behavior, the police would be called and I'd be responsible for my own defense. If the accusations of improper behavior proved true, I would lose my standing, my home, my job, all benefits including pension with no right of appeal. If I were disciplined in some less strong way, that information would be sent to every judicatory in the denomination, would be placed in my file in denominational HQ, and I'd be required to inform all churches and judicatories of it the next time I'm in search. Even if accusations prove false, we must inform all potential calling churches and judicatories of the accusations for the rest of our careers.

We don't get moved quietly to another church. We don't have bishops defending us nor claiming they didn't know child abuse harms children.

Please don't compare Protestant churches to the creeps that run the Catholic Church. Your time would be better spent asking the Vaticn to send Bernie Law home to take responsibility.

[tocqueville]

37. MyCritters your bias is unbelievable...

Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches

By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.

These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide.

CMR's annual surveys of about 1,000 churches nationwide have asked about sexual abuse since 1993. They're a remarkable window on a problem that lurked largely in the shadows of public awareness until the Catholic scandals arose.

The surveys suggest that over the past decade, the pace of child-abuse allegations against American churches has averaged 70 a week. The surveys registered a slight downward trend in reported abuse starting in 1997, possibly a result of the introduction of preventive measures by churches.

"I think the CMR numbers are striking, yet quite reasonable," says Anson Shupe, anIndiana University professor who's written books about church abuse. "To me it says Protestants are less reluctant to come forward because they don't put their clergy on as high a pedestal as Catholics do with their priests."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

you quote only one quoted site and your "hierarchy claim" is preposterous regarding the examples quoted above and below...

more statistics :

http://www.reformation.com /

Welcome to a collection of news reports of ministers sexually abusing children:

ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers

147 Baptist Ministers

251 "Bible" Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers
_____________________________________________

The few serious sites I've seen dealing with the problem say all the same : sexual abuse of children happens in all denominations at about the same rate. The percentage is about 1,5% - 2% (which regarding the number of catholic priests in the World compared to the other denominations, should even give lower numbers for the catholics). Most cases are not pedophilia, if you go by its definition (prepubescent), but still presented such as...

It's well known that there is an anti-catholic bias in the USA for historical reasons (despite it is the major religion). So every opportunity to bash them is good. It's to say the less dishonest. And every time a catholic priest is caught, all the other denominations are forgotten, kind of a "miracle".

I am not a a catholic, more that I happened to grow up in such an environment. I don't defend the Vatican. But I hate bigotry, wherever it comes from. I don't know if you are a fervent Xian or active churchgoer. But calling the Vatican for "creeps" is not very Xian, I wonder why you didn't added the word "heretic"...

Besides : the protestantic denominations don't have a hierarchy - Vatican type. Big deal, maybe interesting from a theological point of view. But on the other hand, a lot of of them are gigantic money-laundering machines for private purposes and personal winning, using a permissive taxation legislation what I know of is quite unique in Western democracies (and a making the formal US separation of Church and State the bad joke it is).

and at last some examples of the "other clean world" :

Child Abuse Exorcism Unveiled among Evangelical African Churches in UK
Posted: Monday, June 6 , 2005, 8:28 (UK)

The Metropolitan Police and child protection experts are stepping up the investigation on the extent of alleged child abuses linked to the practice of exorcism among evangelical African churches across the UK. The move comes in the wake of a cruel offence unveiled last week in the Old Bailey.

According to the Telepraph, three adults were found guilty by the Court on Friday over the torture of a girl in Hackney, east London, two years ago, after she was forced to admit she had been involved in witchcraft.

The girl, now 10 years old, was cut with a knife, beaten with a belt and had chilli peppers rubbed in her eyes to "beat the devil out of her". One of the girl’s relatives, Sita Kisanga, was a regular at an African protestant church with roots in the Congo called Combat Spirituel, based in Dalston, east London. Police found a note on Kisanga’s diary which suggested that she found out the little girl's "possession" through a prayer meeting.

So far, the African and Caribbean Evangelical Alliance (ACEA) has not yet responded to the case. But in a statement dated 1st March, Rev Katei Kirby, General Manager of the ACEA said, "A lot of good work has been done in the area of child protection but we still need to ensure that churches and local agencies have a better understanding of each other's role in the community."
http://www.christiantoday.com/news/church/child.abuse.exorcism.unveiled.among.evangelical.african.churches.in.uk/595.htm

Evangelical Churches Resist Ohio Abuse-Reporting Bill

First Amendment Center
February 20, 2004

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Several fundamentalist churches oppose a bill that would require the clergy to report child abuse, saying the legislation is an unnecessary intrusion into the separation of church and state.

The bill, supported by mainstream churches including Roman Catholics and Methodists, easily passed the Senate last year but is stalled in a House committee because of the ministers' concerns.

Pastors of independent Baptist churches and evangelical congregations around Ohio say the requirement raises privacy concerns about pastors' approach to counseling and even church teachings on corporal punishment.

"If corporal discipline is considered abuse and the pastor preaches that the Bible teaches corporal discipline, what should the pastor do if the parishioners follow his preaching?" said Daniel Whisner, pastor of the Church at Chapel Hill in Mount Vernon. "Should he then turn them into the state for abuse?"


..............

[Critters2]

39. All clergy live with the daily risk of accusation now,

thanks to your priests. EVerytime another one attacks a child, the public looks askance at all clergy. We all now have to be careful that we are never alone with a child, even for a moment. All because the newpapers are full of Catholic priests fondling children, and bishops giving tacit approval.

And I keep waiting for all the "good priests", the ones everyone insists are in the majority, to sepak up. They never do. Which causes me to assume they aren't the majority.

And Bernie Law is still in Rome.

[tocqueville]

42. so the Catholics are RESPONSIBLE too if the majority...

of the religious related child abuse is in reality happening in Protestantic churches ?

Or is there a conspiration between the Vatican and the CS Monitor ? You asked for statistics, you got them

amazing...

[Critters2]

49. If I molested a child

or abetted the molestation of children, you can bet my church wouldn't move me to some foreign country to protect me from prosecution. Like, oh, I dunno, Bernie Law.

[Critters2]

40. I have a bias against child molesters

So shoot me. Or, for real punishment, get me a job at the Vatican.

[tocqueville]

43. who hasn't ?

but denying that the problem is at least as big in other denominations than the Catholics, will surely not help the abused children...

[Critters2]

47. The Catholic Church hasn't

That's who.

[shrike]

27. Er, they oppose the death penalty

Don't know where you got your facts, but please get 'em straight before you post.

[Critters2]

30. The Vatican does

American bishops are silent on the issue.

[shrike]

44. Not in my state they're not

Or Michigan, or in a few other states I can think of . . .

[beam me up scottie]

5. You're not alone,

many catholics feel that way.

Just ask the Bostonians on DU how they feel about Cardinal Law's "punishment".

It doesn't seem to get in the way of their faith, they have every right to feel enraged.

[tocqueville]

6. of course Protestant ministers are always completely innocent

http://www.reformation.com/


Welcome to a collection of news reports of ministers sexually abusing children:


ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers

147 Baptist Ministers

251 "Bible" Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers

Moral panics :

Abuse rate: Few people seem to be asking whether sexual abuse of children is more common in the Roman Catholic church than in Protestant churches or other faith groups. Philip Jenkins, author of "Pedophiles and Priests" found no evidence that the incidence of child molestation among Roman Catholic priests was any greater than within other Christian denominations.

Magnitude: Using terms like "The Sins of the Fathers," some in the media are implying that child sexual abuse by priests is extremely common throughout the U.S. church. The best estimates that we have seen indicate that only a few percent of priests abuse children. As Pope John Paul II stated, the panic casts a "dark shadow of suspicion over all the other fine priests who perform their ministry with honesty.'' 2

Meaning of terms: The original meaning of the term "pedophile" was an adult who has a sexual interest in a pre-pubertal child -- whether that desire was acted upon or not. In recent decades, the term has developed a second, more sinister meaning: an adult who actively molests a young child. This moral panic seems to be emphasizing the latter meaning. This will leave no word in the English language for a non-abusive adult who has a sexual attraction to children but who does not act upon the temptation. This may lead to the assumption by the public that all pedophiles are abusers.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex1.htm


The Catholic priesthood is not the only institution that has been hit with scandal. In 2001, I heard the Evangelical radio show "Focus on the Family", hosted by psychologist and author Dr. James Dobson, discuss a crisis among Pastors of non-Catholic churches. They reported that 21% of Evangelical/Protestant pastors had had inappropriate sexual contact with members of their congregations. Sixty percent (60%) of Evangelical pastors, most of whom are married, have a problem with pornography. In a 1984 study, 76% of pastors knew of another Evangelical pastor who had sexual intercourse with a parishioner. A list of non-Catholic ministers charged in court with abuse is here. In this post Freudian world, sex scandal has hit many major institutions including, presidencies, public schools, and minor league sports. God save us.

The incidence of abuse by teachers is even more staggering, as a 1988 study reported in The Handbook on Sexual Abuse of Children reveals. It reported that "One in four girls, and one in six boys, is sexually abused by age 18." A 1991 study revealed that "17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school, and 82.2 percent of females, reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff during their years in school. Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher,"

A survey by the Washington Post found that "Over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse." ...Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that '80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children,'" the report continues, underscoring the fact that the ordination of priests with homosexual tendencies may be the real problem. ... In 2002, Christian Ministry Resources reported on national surveys they conducted which concluded that "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant." Lifesite News, Feb 6 2004

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/priest_sexual_abuse_cases.htm

_________________________________________________________________________________________
what I get out of it is :

secular teachers are the biggest predators (13%)

The incidence of sexual abuse by clergymen is at least as big within other denominations than within
the Catholics. I most cases it's not pedophilia. And it's still a minor phenomenon, let say 2%.


Catholics have always been considered as the religion to bash by the white protestant Anglo-Saxons and they have mostly detained power....


And is the President guilty ? being accused is not the same thing....

[deadparrot]

9. Wasn't targeting the Catholic Church specifically.

However, it has been a major problem in my community, which is heavily Catholic. I find it reprehensible that anyone would prey on a child (and yes, I count "adolescent" boys as children), especially someone in a position of trust and authority.

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Thank you so much for posting facts to counter the

constant stream of "every priest is a pedophile" posts and threads at DU.

I'd like to add that it is not only Catholic bishops who have covered up clergy sexual abuse cases. It happens in every Christian denomination and among rabbis as well, Orthodox rabbis included. Somehow those cases are always ignored at DU but any opportunity to bash Catholics is taken. It's the same at every other "liberal" or "progressive" site. Anti-Catholicism is one of the few prejudices acceptable and common among those who call themselves liberals and progressive.

[tocqueville]

14. At least DU is free from the "Zionist conspiracy"

which can be popular in other liberal/progressive groups. I have read many posts here since I became a member and it's interesting to notice that some prejudice is rampant even among progressive people.

It's human nature, it's not limited to American progressives, you can find it in every country. But you cannot really fight those that you - with all right - accuse of being bigots, racists and liers if you don't sweep a little in front of your own porch...

[beam me up scottie]

15. Unfortunately, there's a LOT of "Zionist conspiracy" kooks around here.

Most of their stuff either gets deleted or dumped into one of two forums.

The familiar shriek of "But I'm not an anti-semite! I just hate the zionists and elite bankers!" is never far away on DU.

[tocqueville]

17. well at least it's deleted... nt

[arwalden]

26. Oh Brother!

:eyes:

[Critters2]

32. It does not happen in every denomination

We had a Conference Minister (read bishop) who was caught downloading pornography to his office computer and well, using it to enjoy himself, even with female staff around. Though considerably less egregious than child molestation, this was a clear violation of our professional standards. He was removed from his position immediately, and after an investigation, lost his job and his standing (which always scares people, because you can only draw on your pension if you have standing). I don't know what he's doing today, but he's not in ministry in THIS denomination.

Do you SERIOUSLY believe that a CAtholic bishop would be defrocked for beating off in his office? If so, you've been reading different news stories than I have.

[Critters2]

33. So all the victims are lying?

You should get a job as an attorney for the Archdioceses of Boston or Chicago.

[Critters2]

31. See my other post

the major difference is with how the church hierarchies react. The Catholic hierarchy has made it clear that it approves of sexual abuse of children.

THAT is a major difference.

[JVS]

62. Protestants aren't one single denomination

Frankly I'm surprised at the Episcopalian's numbers there for a church of 2.5 million people that's a lot when one considers that Methodist and Lutherans each have 8 million members and total way less cases.

[EST]

19. Those who feel called to be spiritual and moral leaders should

not only expect to be held to a higher standard, they, themselves, have asked to be, nay, demanded to be held to that higher standard.

Of course we all, as adults, should be expected to perform at an advanced moral and ethical level, but those who wish to be in positions of moral authority must be beyond reproach. It is not enough to excuse them with some mumble jumble about being only human, prone to error. The promises one makes, to himself, society, and whatever supernatural being one follows, invite the comparison. A priest has to be a shining example. Anything less is moral turpitude and, at the secular level, should be dealt with severely.
The same with law enforcement--the penalties for indiscretion or violation must be much more severe than with the general population, commensurate with the amount of trust that does with the job.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. You're absolutely right in what you say, but I believe that most men

become priests or ministers or rabbis intending to be true to their vows. Those who know they are pedophiles or ephebophiles often believe that serving God as a clergyman will deliver them from temptation. Obviously, anyone old enough to be a cleric should know what his/her sexual appetites are, but denial can be powerful, especially in someone who believes they have a vocation, a call, to serve God.

No matter what he or she does for a living, anyone who is proven to have abused a child should go to prison and be kept away from children forever. The latter is easier said than done, though, as we've seen in various cases reported in the news of pedophiles freed from prison only to not only rape but kill their new victims.

[EST]

23. Makes me shudder.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Do you always jump to the conclusion that an allegation is true?

You say a priest has been accused and you seem to have found him guilty without trial..

I know of a number of cases in which the "victim" eventually confessed that the accused priest or teacher or neighbor or family member had NOT done anything improper. Kids make false accusations to "get back at" an adult who they feel was unfair to them and even if the accuser later tells the truth, the reputation of the accused is forever damaged. I've seen public school teachers fired because a couple of kids cooked up a story and the school board bought it. Have you ever imagined what it would be like to have that happen to you; to be falsely accused and have your career and life ruined?

I was raised Protestant and I have personal knowledge of sexual abuses by more than one Protestant clergyman but I don't blame the Protestant church every time I hear of a Protestant clergyman being accused of a sex offense. Pedophiles and ephebophiles are notorious for choosing careers that put them in contact with children. It always makes me angry to hear of children being abused but I don't much care what the abuser's profession is. I didn't like the church I was raised in and I left it when I was 17 but I don't carry around any anger at that denomination. It just wasn't meaningful to me so I got out. Interestingly enough, I've now been Catholic longer than you were and have yet to know anyone who even claimed to have been abused by a priest, not even a story of a friend of a friend of a friend being abused.

Sexual abuse of children IS a very troubling issue and the most troubling aspect of it is that the perpetrator is usually the child's father, stepfather, uncle, older brother, etc. (There are women who abuse but most offenders are male; studies say between 1-2% of all males are pedophiles.) How we deal with that, I don't know. I know we can educate children in school about "good touch" and "bad touch" but that doesn't help the preschoolers and even infants who are being abused in their own homes.

[arwalden]

24. Isn't It Sad That The (In)Actions Of The Church Make It So Easy...

... for people to jump-to-conclusions? Just imagine how much better things might be if they had spent as much time confronting the REAL evil of THIS particular problem as they did/do with their peculiar fascination when it comes to "evil" gays and lesbians.

I, for one, have absolutely NO sympathy for any organization that has, through its own negligence and arrogance, put ITSELF in the position that people can easily assume that the worst is TRUE without it being first proved in court.

[trotsky]

25. That is the absolute core of the matter.

The fact that there is a documented pattern of abuse, coverup, and reassignment in so very many cases makes us automatically distrust the Catholic Church.

They have no one but themselves to blame for the knee-jerk reactions.

Good to see you again in here, arwalden!

[arwalden]

36. Interesting (Although Predictable) That The Usual Suspects Dive In With...

... their assorted diversionary counter-charge whenever someone does nothing more than pointing out the truth. Inevitably, they try to frame it as being an example of "anti-Catholic bigotry at DU"... or as one more in the imagined "constant stream of every-priest-is-a-pedophile posts".

Wouldn't it be much easier for folks like that to just own up to the facts instead of constantly denying them (or minimizing them) or trying to justify them with absurd comparisons, or with the insinuations that the victims are liars?? Someone needs to break it to them that the Catholic church is NOT the victim here, and that any suspicions and mistrust of the church and its leaders is deserved and something that's of their OWN making.

What incredible insensitivity... yet they try to pull it off as though THEY are the ones being victimized. Disgusting!

Those folks need to wake up, deal with reality, and STOP blaming their own problems on others. I find it to be astounding, but not surprising. (If that makes sense.) Isn't that sad?

All's well here Trotsky... good to see you too! Next time you're in DC we'll have to get together for a steak and a beer. Really!

~Allen

[Critters2]

38. Interesting coincidence in the Chicago Tribune today

On the front page there's an article saying that DCFS did not follow its own procedures in dealing with Father McCormack at St. Agatha's (the latest local atrocity). The abuse was reported to the police who reported it to DCFS. DCFS was supposed to report it to the abuser's employer, in this case the Archdiocese of Chicago. For some strange reason, the Archdiocese was not kept informed. This policy of informing eemployers is used in all cases where the accused has contact with children while on the job.

On the very same day, Bill Donohue of the Catholic League, has a LTTE insisting that public school teachers and coaches are regularly accused but allowed to continue in their jobs while awaiting "due process". He goes on to decry the "climate" in which priests have to live. Poor priests.

What good ol delusional Bill missed is that the priest was the one given a pass this time. If he'd been anayone else, he'd have been reported to his employer and kept away from kids. This creep was allowed around kids, where he did abuse more of them, because DCFS did NOT follow its own policy.

A Catholic priest getting away with a crime in Chicago. I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! They'll probably do something really awful as punishment. Like moving him to Boston.

[arwalden]

41. Brace Yourself...

... for howler-monkeys screeching accusations that you're YETTA-NOTHER anti-Catholic bigot. How DARE you talk about the HEADLINES?? The nerve!!

I just google'd that, and this story seems to be covered pretty thoroughly in many many different sources. But still... it's YOUR FAULT for pointing out what went wrong. How dare you!

:hi:

Perhaps they were too busy with their anti-gay political activism to be concerned about this stuff and following the rules. It's pretty sad.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Natural result of the celibacy policy

Now that Catholic families no longer routinely push one of their sons into the priesthood, the celibacy policy makes it awfully hard to attract recruits. The rules forbid all sexual activity, but most specifically marriage.

So who is ging to be attracted to a profession that is forbidden to marry? Men who aren't interested in marrying women anyway. Now in the case of gay men, there's no harm done if they're sneaking around with another adult man. In fact, I bet that joining the priesthood was a handy way for gay men to stay closeted in the old days.

The Catholic priesthood would probably look very attractive to a pedophile in any case. Not only is one "freed" from the expectations of having an adult sex life but one also has lots of access to children.

I think that the poster above is correct in saying that Protestants don't have much of this kind of problem among the clergy. Most Protestant clergy are married and have children of their own, so the problem is weeding out volunteers who are sexually attracted to children. In the Episcopal church, no one is allowed to work with children or youth without undergoing a background check and taking a course in sexual boundaries.

When Protestant clergy go off the straight and narrow, it's almost always with another adult.

[JVS]

64. To further your point about the celibacy program

The RCC has a difficult time getting enough new priests, while many other denominations have to be careful not to allow too many people into seminaries, lest they be unemployable when they finish. A result of it could well be that Priests' importance to the organization ia hightened and gets in the way of seeking justice for their victims. A priest who engages in misconduct is moved or tolerated because he's not easily replacable, wheras his counterpart in another denomination might be turned in or never hired in any capacity by another church.

[Lucy - Claire]

46. It is not a Catholic issue, it is an issue for all schools.

It is an issue where anyone works with children,it can be a magnet for Pedophiles. In the UK there has been huge scandals lately about people of the sex offenders register that have been working in schools.(The infamous Ian Huntley was the evil bastard that brought it to the attention of the British public. He was a school caretaker with a previous record as a sex offender. He abused and murdered two little girls. When the knowledge of his past record came out,it started a change in the law. Anyone in the UK that applies for any job including church sunday school is subject to police checks.The latest problem is that it was realised that teachers that had been teaching already for years, had a record and were never checked.)We also had a DJ named Jonathan King who was jailed for sexually abusing some of his male fans. It is now known that many DJ's at certain discos were child molesters.

When I was in high school we had a supply teacher that got caught molesting boys. It wasn't even surprising because he was a bizarre man, that scared most of us and everybody loathed his lessons. But he was not a religious man and he worked in local state schools. He was around for years until he was caught, I read about it the national press.
In middle school we had a male art teacher that throw a plate at a pupil, he was just suspended. He continued to teach, even though we all knew he was a walking time bomb with a very nasty temper. Schools were less careful in the 80's then now. In high school we also had a lesbian PE teacher who used stare at us while we changed (it was an all girls school), every girl complained about it. It is bad enough going though puberty and the ordeal of changing rooms, without being stared out. She ended being caught having affair with one of the Sixth Formers (16 years old),she got fired for it. She and the pupil were caught kissing in school. I had a gay headmaster and other lesbian teachers, none of with broke the law, made their pupils feel uncomfortable in their presence unless they misbehaved. They were all exellent teachers.
My point is, that on these boards there are endless accusations and threads about Catholic priests and sexual abuse,but it is a much bigger problem than that. I was personally sexually assaulted when I was six, by two other girls. I was pinned to the floor and I bit one of them to get away. Unfortunately she was a gypsy with a lot of cousins in the playground so I got beaten up as well and it was terrifying. I was totally unable to tell anyone what had happened, so I then got into trouble for bitting someone for no apparent reason. After wards I had problems with that girl and her family. She got a gang of girls on me when I was eight and once when I was taken swimming, she and her male cousins were there and badly bullied me again. I was 16 before I told anyone about the assault, I wasn't clear that it was assault when I was six either. But the experience has not made me prejudiced against Gypsy's, because I know one group of kids do not represent all gypsies. And I do not blame state schools either for the actions of a handful of bad teachers.
I understand that Catholic Priests are acting against the religious beliefs that they teach, which makes them big news when they are caught for child abuse but they don't represent the millions of good Catholics that are repelled by those actions. And yes many priests,vicars and pastors do speak out about such abuses,they do renounce them. It just doesn't make the headlines.

[Critters2]

48. Where are these millions of Catholics?

I keep hearing that there are "millions of Catholics" who are appalled by the pedophile priests. You'd think "millions of Catholics" could make a lot of noise about this issue. But, apart from the victims themselves, there is nothing but deafening silence. As a Protestant pastor, I'm still expected to be polite with my CAtholic colleagues, and assume that they are among the "appalled millions". Yet, not a one of them has ever voiced any disgust about their pedophile brothers.

I'll believe there are "millions of Catholics" who are disgusted only when they start saying so. Until then, I have to assume that they, like their bishops and the Vatican, approve of child abuse.

[Lucy - Claire]

50. They are attending mass every week, they teaching from the

pulpit, they are writing letters, they are working from within to safe guard against future problems involving Priests abusing children.They are working for change through action,not words. They act by training people to deal with the victims,to look for signs,by making sure they know who to report it too. I live across the road from a boy's Catholic school, which has a very good reputation,parents fight to get their son's in to it and it is next to a church that is always full for it's Sunday services,they are part of the millions of people that attend mass, that in your view "approve of child abuse." Or maybe they trust the system that is put in place to protect children.Maybe they know the Priests and know that they are not all perverts, just some are just like some male teachers will try and sleep with their prettiest teenager girl! (Which is also a fairly common occurrence that does not get the headlines.)
I said in my previous post that sexual assault on minors also happens in secular schools, people have only just woken up to it and addressing it. People are coming down hard on sex offenders working in institutions. Do the Pastors you meet all personally, publicly condemn every act of sexual abuse?As you seem to expect from Catholics that do that Are they loudly protesting about issues of sexual abuse? Are they working to sure children are protected from abuse within their churches?
Do you expect every priest that you meet to personally declare that they are sickened by Pedophilia and personally condemn every priest that has abused a child?
What about the fact that most children are abused at home, not in churches? How about addressing child sexual abuse as an issue for every institution,instead of just pointing at one group who happen to be headline news?
In my country the laws have tightened against Pedophiles no matter what their profession. Whether it is teaching, running youth clubs, junior sports coaches etc. Does your church to police checks on everyone that volunteers to do children's work?






http://www.rcdow.org.uk/fileupload/upload/Responding_to_Allegations1242005171456.pdf

[Critters2]

51. "Trust the system that is put in place to protect children"?!

Are you serious?! There is NO SYSTEM in place in the Catholic Church to protect children as recent events in Chicago clearly demonstrate!

And yes, pastors in my tradition do work to ensure that children are protected. We have STRICT standards which include NEVER being alone with a child. I teach a confirmation class that this year has one student. One of his parents MUST be with him when he arrives at the church, or I don't teach the class. I've never been accused of anything nor disciplined of anything. In my church, protection of children is a matter of course. In the Catholic Church there is no such protection, even AFTER a priest has been accused, as the Chicago case demonstrates.

But what strikes me as most interesting about your post is that you never, not once, lay responsibility at the feet of the child molesters. They aren't even on your radar screen, and neither are their victims. You're all about defending the church, with no thought of the fact that these abuses have happened, have been covered up, and have been excused by the hierarchy.

Your silence in the face of this abuse is waht perpetuates it. Why shouldn't Bishop Imesch invite child molesters into his diocese? Why shouldn't the Vatican protect Bernie Law? Why should Cardinal George allow an accused child molester to keep working with kids? People like you will never hold them accountable.

Do you really care about the safety of children so little? The Catholic Church is desperately ill.

[Critters2]

52. Oh, and yes

my church DOES do background checks on everyone who volunteers (or is paid) to work with children. And my church isn't listed in the post insisting that Protestants do it as often as Catholics.

Imagine how different things would be if your church did.

[Lucy - Claire]

53. In the UK background checks on anyone working with children is the law.

The Catholic Churches and Schools also applies the child protection procedures.Given the history of England and its suspicion of The Catholic Church, it works hard to preserve the peace and respect that it now has within this country.
The biggest problem with religious child abuse in this country is with African churches and there extremist practices and obsession with demon possession. There have have been scandals about sexual abuse by priests in this country, like many other countries which tells me that pedophilia is a universal problem and those countries with like respect for child protection are likely to attract perverts;look up Gary Glitter a convicted child sex offender,managed to work in Cambodia with children until his history was discovered. He is now in a Vietnamese jail for child sex offense's.

The latest scandal has been the discovery that whilst it is now the law that everyone that applies for a job working with children, including volunteers has to have background checks but it overlooked the established teachers that have worked for decades and where never check. It was found that some where on the sexual offense register. The tightening of the laws in the first place were triggered by the Soham murders, committed by a school caretaker who it was found did have previous records of sex offenses. The legislation has now been changed and some teachers will lose their jobs.

When I was at school one of my supply teachers got convicted for molesting boys, this happened after I left school, so who knows how long he had been doing this. When I was six I was sexually assaulted by two other girls, though it did give me problems in my teens with nightmares about being held down and the realisation of what happened. I do not blame those two girls as they were also six. My point is that when you take your child to school, you put their welfare in the hands of teachers, people you do not know, the teachers that sexually abuse children are not only school teachers.But people still take their children to school and trust
the institution to protect their child, even though it has failed to protect as many children in the past. Just as people still go to mass on Sunday or sent their kids too cubs and brownies,to swimming or soccer training all of which has in the past attracted perverts and pedophiles.
I work in school admissions and in the past year I have had place two teenage girls into new schools, in both cases that have been sexually assaulted by boys with in the school. The boys were never prosecuted just suspended from school. Child Protection Laws do not protect from other children in some cases.

http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/nav/childprotection.htm

I am a Catholic, who has explored other denominations and I have never attended any church where every creche worker, every youth worker, every sunday school teacher was not vetted. I am friends with several women that have been sexually abused as children and in all of those cases it was in there own home, by their father, step-father or foster father. They were often beaten too. One friend was forced into child prostitution by her father until she could escape.
I am not unaware of sexual abuse and I do care deeply for my friends that have been abused it that way. I do not think that anyone that is convicted of any sexual crime should get less than a long prison sentence, I don't care who they are or who they work for. I just do not point the finger at The Catholic Church as the one most guilty of child abuse because it isn't unique and it is madness to say that everyone that attends mass condones child abuse, it also ignores that fact that most child abuse happens in their home. And most child abuse goes on unreported and unpunished, so maybe the embarrassment and revulsion over the Cardinals that commit sexual acts on children will force change within the whole wide church and result in the church cleaning house.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-5589534,00.html

[Critters2]

54. It's not the law in this country, Yet.

Which is how the Catholic Church gets away with behaving like procurers for pedophiles. You may not want to believe this, but the Archbishop most personally responsible for making children available to pedophiles--Bernard CArdinal Law of Boston--was "called" to the Vatican just days before he was likely to be indicted for conspiracy. Your Church prevented him from being dealt with according to the law of the land. He'll have to stay in Rome the rest of his life, so it's sort of a prison, but it's not the prison he should be in--and the Catholic Church protected him from justice.

Or take Bishop Imesch of Joliet, our local child molester du jour. He actually INVITED a known pedophile to serve in his diocese after the creep was found skinny dipping with adolescent boys in Michigan.

So, not only do Catholic priests get "less than a long prison sentence" to use your term, but they are protected by bishops, Archbishops, and the Vatican.

And you refuse to speak out against. Incroyable!

[Lucy - Claire]

55. What do you mean that I refuse to speak against it?

It isn't "My Church",I am one person that goes to Mass on a sunday, I could leave the church out of righteous indignation as a protest against the leniency of the justice to the American clergy but whether I attend or not is not going to change anything. I have actually just returned to The Catholic Church.I do believe that having stronger child protection laws is key, in the US not just for the Catholic Church but for schools, youth groups etc.But I don't have a vote and Bush isn't likely to care.
Maybe it is better to change things from within and support the churches that work to protect children.The church I attend has five schools in it's authority, they are the most oversubscribed schools in my town, parents will convert to get their children in to these schools.The church I attend has many young people that have grown up in the church and as adults are happy to stay,that is why I say that people do trust our priests because they have always had a strong reputation as being a good family church.It is a liberal Catholic Church, if there were problems with child abuse,then it would not be the busy, lively church that it is today. Maybe there has been, maybe they allowed teachers in that abused the children. Maybe the boys school had to supply teacher that was convicted after I left school. But the reason for the headlines is that some pedophiles do become teachers or scout leaders or football coaches.

http://century.guardian.co.uk/1990-1999/Story/0,6051,112749,00.html

The event in that cutting, lead to Scotland tighten it's laws and The Snowdrop Campaign that lead to making guns illegal in the UK.

I am clearly stating right here stating that I believe that men such as Bernard of Boston belongs in jail and so does Bishop Imesch of Joliet and any other known Pedophiles he brings into contact with his church. I agree he should face some sort of justice.He does belong in jail and the victims need to see justice. But I do not blame that entire Catholic Church or think that the whole church is supporting child abuse, as alot of it also relates to the laws within each country. I also think that in a matter that grave have to face The Pope and account for the grave sins towards children, the shamed brought on to the entire Catholic Church and the betrayal of trust, should be a punishment as well as a long prison sentence. If The Vatican wishes to punish these Priests, the need to incarcerate those convicted of such crimes.

[Critters2]

56. The Vatican doesn't wish to punish them

Law wasn't called to Rome to be punished, but to avoid punishment. And your claims that you want laws enforced ring hollow, given that Law went to Rome precisely to AVOID the punishment of a conspiracy conviction. He was also called to Rome by the Pope to avoid being the defendant in several civil cases.
By avoiding the civil suits, Ol' Bernie won't be liable for the damage he inflicted, and saved himself and the ARchdiocese a lot of money.

Bishop Imesch has announced that he is retiring, which will almost certainly help him avoid an church sanctions, and because he only enabled pedophiles, he probably won't be criminally prosecuted.

What is most disturbing, though, is this nonsense about the church being the victim. Your church still does not care about the children (many now adults) who have been damaged for life because some priest is a pedophile and some bishop approves of that.

If you're going to talk about law enforcement where this scandal is concerned, start by writing the Pope and insisting he send Bernie Law home--and encourage other Catholics to do the same. Or stop making the false claim that you think laws should be strict, should be adhered to, or should be enforced. The official policy of the Catholic Church is that child molesters should be shielded from the law.

[Lucy - Claire]

57. You are have gone a step to far........

I do agree that the Bishop Imesch and Bernie Law should be properly punished and that as an American's they should be extradited back to the US to face Justice.You seem to be saying that because a man called Law avoided punishment under US law, that my views on enforcing universal Child Protection Laws is a lie.
I also believe you have called me a lier because you perceive that I have not harassed The Pope about a law enforcement matter between The Vatican and The USA, which is not my country. How about you writing to your Senator and demanding that strong Child Protection Laws are put in place that ensures vetting for all school teachers, nursery workers and that churches have to comply with too.
I do not see the church as a victim of anything other then finger pointing and prejudice over an issue that also affects children that have never set foot in a church, it is written as though it is the only culprit of institutional abuse in
The Catholic Church. How about addressing the issues of teachers, politicians,wealthy fathers, school caretakers, sports coaches etc, that that also are shielded from the law and laws that make it very hard to prosecute sex offenses, either for adults or children.

This is my last response to you as I will not be called a lier for the views that I have. You are coming across as rude and aggressive in your tone. I am putting you on ignore.

[Critters2]

58. NO ONE has been shielded from laws against child molestation

but Catholic priests. No one gets away with this but Catholic priests. EVERY other institution that deals with children--schools, sports teams, etc--works to protect children. One reason laws don't need to be any stronger than they are is that institutions police themselves well. I've pointed out the swift, harsh, and certain punishment I'll feel if I'm accused, and the background checks my church uses. Not so the Catholic Church. A child made an accusation against Father McCormack in August. In December another child accuses him. If the Church had removed him from his ministry in August, that second child would not have been molested.

"How about addressing the issues of teachers, politicians,wealthy fathers, school caretakers, sports coaches etc, that that also are shielded from the law and laws that make it very hard to prosecute sex offenses, either for adults or children."

Maybe your laws make it hard to prosecute these crimes. In this country, they're no harder to prosecute than other crimes--if families aren't talked out of going to the authorities, as has been the practice of the Catholic Church. All of those other people you name are regularly prosecuted, often on weak evidence. The only people who function within a system intended to put children at risk is the Catholic Church.

Allow me to introduce you to one of the leaders of your church. You'll be proud...
www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0602090028feb09,0,1058679.story?coll=chi-newsopinion-hed


Why are you so angry with me? Why are you not angry with the child molesting priests. That's what I don't get. I want children to be protected. You want me to shut up.

The Catholic Church is a sick insitution, from the Pope who shields molesters and their enablers from justice, to the bishops who make children available to molesters, to the priests who rape children, to the laity who remain silent about crimes against children and want others to do the same.

Sick.

[arwalden]

59. Too Bad This Person Put You On "Ignore"

<< Why are you so angry with me? Why are you not angry with the child molesting priests. >>

Because their answer to your question (above) would be very interesting or most revealing.

I, myself, often wonder why it is that some nitwits around here prefer to spend all their energy and effort being angry at the person who questions the actions (or inactions) of the church... INSTEAD of being angry at the church itself for the things its does (or doesn't do).

The ostrich-like behavior of many folks around here continues to baffle me.

[Critters2]

60. I used to buy the "most priests are good" stuff,

but that doesn't cut it with me anymore. I want SOMEONE in the Catholic Church to be publicly, loudly, vehemently ANGRY!!! Children are being molested! This latest stuff in Chicago is the last straw for me. I've been background-checked to death (just this week again, when I volunteered to be an advisor at the Conference Confirmation retreat), with not so much as a blip. My record is spotless. Yet, I can't be alone with children at my church.

But these Catholic pervs not only molest children, but their bishops help 'em do it. And when it hits the fan, they can just move to Rome and avoid prosecution.

Why aren't these people just fire-breathing pissed?!! I wish my church let me get away with shit--not this shit, but even just forgetting about the occasional meeting, taking an extra vacation day. Nope. I gotta play by the rules. But Catholic priests can molest kids with impunity.

What is WRONG with these people????!!!!

[PassingFair]

61. Some of them ARE, critters... but they're probably considered...

...BAD catholics!

[Lucy - Claire]

65. How am I an Ostrich.....

Is it because I attend church, believe in something that you don't?
I have again and again agreed that Pedophilia is a huge problem, only I see it as bigger than an issue for the Catholic Church. Which is why I get annoyed at the focus on The Catholic Church. The Church in my country has addressed the issues, I am sure perverted Priests will slip in to parishes, just as all child molesters find a way to feed their serious sickness.It would be naive to think anything else. But whether I attend my local Church is not relevant to the argument, I could protest and not go but that is not going to have an affect either. That problem that I see is not just that Bernie Law is at the Vatican but with the US not using this as a chance too improve Child Protection Laws, that makes me more angry because with the child abuse that takes place in fundie churches, foster homes etc. I think just concentrating of child abuse in Catholic Churches, allows way to many other institutions to systematically abuse children, sexually, physically and emotionally without being noticed. I also think that Bernie Law should be extradited and face charges, I have no argument that it isn't good enough that he is not facing the civil lawsuits. My only hope is that he is in the care of a strict Opus DI Arch-Bishop and has to flog himself on a daily basis, that he suffers physical pain for his actions.

I am angry when someone calls my opinions false because I do not act in the way, he thinks I should. That is judgmental and rude. That was why I decided to put him on ignore. He asks my why I am not angry with child molesting priests,I am but I am not blaming the entire Catholic Church and I do not see every Priest as a child molester anymore than I think all men are rapists or child molesters. Alot of them are but not all of them. But Critters keeps throwing accusations at me that are both insulting and untrue.
I loathe anyone that molests a child whether it is a teacher, a youth worker or a priest, I see them all as the lowest of the low. And though I am against the death penalty, I would shed no tears if scum like Ian Huntley, Rosemary West or Ian Brady, came to a very bad end. (Maybe the fact that Ian Brady is not being allowed to die by hunger strike, he is being drip feed is a kind of justice.) I have an issue with that fact that Pedophiles have been allowed to be prevalent in society and that it takes the brutal murder of a child to wake people up into legislating better Child Protection Laws in the UK. I am angry that I have friends that were raped and abused in their own homes, in their own beds. It wasn't until Thomas Hamilton massacred 16 small children and it was revealed that he had a history of abusing children that those laws were looked at in Scotland. That people even looked at vetting people who work with children. It took the murder of two girls, who were sexually assaulted and tortured by their school caretaker, for people to wake up to the fact that perverts worked in schools. I have already said many times in this thread I was sexually assaulted, beaten up and in serious trouble at school, for bitting the culprit. I could not talk about what happened until I was in therapy aged 16. However I am not angry with the culprit she was six but the still vivid memory still haunts me and I still have nightmares about being held down. I was also taught in high school by a man that was later a convicted child molester. However I will still send my children to state schools and I do not hate gypsies either. It was a gypsy girl that attacked me and it was here cousins that beat me up.

I am not offended by people calling The Catholic Church on things that they have done wrong, I grew up in London in the 1980's when Catholics were consider terrorists because of the IRA. I am offended by the notion of guilt by association, that because I attend mass on Sunday that I condone Child Abuse, that sickens me. It is just as narrow minded and prejudiced as my thinking the News Agent up the road is a terrorist because he has a beard and goes to Mosque.

[Critters2]

66. You're an Ostrich

because you're more offended by critics of your church than by child molesters within your church.

Again, why are you not angry with the priests. You're pissed at ME?!!! I haven't molested the children being raised in your faith community. I've only decried that molestation. But it's the decrying that pisses you off, not the molestation.

Just sick.

[Critters2]

68. An article about Bernie Law's "punishment"

Someone make me suffer like this...

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0416-25.htm

[JVS]

63. That there are websites dedicated to pointing fingers at "protestants"

in general as defence shows me that there are some who would rather deny the seriousness of the problem and a prefer to dismiss it as persecution from the outside.

[Critters2]

67. It only demostrates how many Catholics

approve of the abuse.

Unbelievable.