An atheist's approach to mystery

[Silent3]

There's a great deal of mystery to be found in this world of ours. No matter how much we learn, no matter how much we begin to understand, our ignorance is, and likely always will be, as an ocean compared to a tiny portion of knowledge we hold cupped in our hands.

Yet an atheist can, as many atheists do, look upon what is known of our universe, can ponder what lies beyond the limits of the limited knowledge that we possess, and feel awe and grandeur and splendor. Despite the cramped and sterile view of the universe many theists seem to think an atheist must possess (and which perhaps a few dull and unimaginative atheists do possess), an atheist can experience the emotion of wonder just as fully as anyone else. I might even venture to say an atheist with a disciplined skeptical mind can experience a sense of wonder more fully than others might.

Why might I say this? Because such an atheist knows how to let wonder simply be wonder. Such an atheist can embrace mystery without turning to mysticism, finding in mysticism not an appreciation of mystery but an attempt to deny mystery and replace it with imagined privileged channels of knowledge. An atheist can face the unknown and consider a broad range of possibilities while resisting the urge to quickly filter that broad spectrum into narrow bands derived solely from the fears, desires and needs of the human psyche.

I have no problem imagining anyone's God. My problem is that I can imagine far too many gods, and have yet to encounter any one god which is so special that It demands a special place amid a sea of unresolved mysteries. The gods I have encountered are either far too vague to be interesting, or their specifics seem arbitrary choices rooted in human frailty, vanity, and limited imagination. None of these gods help explain what little I do know of the world around me any better than a lack of gods explains things, and some of these gods carry baggage which outright contradicts what I know through evidential means.

If you want to appreciate mystery, think big. Don't ask where the Universe came from or how it was created, but rather wonder why there is rather than there is not. To imagine a God creating a universe is to fail to see that the empty stage upon which this God would act would already be a universe itself, a universe equally in need of explanation. Ask yourself how the word "create" -- a word which implies a passage from a point in time when a thing does not exist to a point in time when it does -- can even properly apply to the origin of the Universe, because absent the Universe time itself is absent, and the concept of "creation" has no meaning.

I try -- and fail miserably -- to imagine a Nothingness so profound that I know my own idea of nothing, the starkest, emptiest most profound Nothing I can imagine, is still too much of a thing to be where I want my mind to go. As best I can, I try to ask myself why there is Something, Anything, rather than a Nothing more thoroughly void than the best Nothing I can fail to imagine? In doing so, I realize that I simply do not possess -- nor can I see that any other human being possesses -- the ability to even ask a properly Ultimate Question of origin, freed as that question would have to be from the most basic concepts of time and place and existence which intrinsically underpin any thought I can hope to form.

Were I partial to mysticism, as opposed to appreciation of mystery, I might stop here and point to this Question which I don't know how to ask, or to an imagined Answer to the Question, and say "That is God". But where would applying the label "God" take me? Having found an idea to call my God do a slew of other Divine Attributes automatically get to come along for the ride? Does this God love me, does it desire worship, does it provide me with an immortal soul and a plan for that soul's salvation, does it have a strange fixation on what I do or don't do with my genitalia?

Of course not. My newly minted God would be no more than a convenient label for an idea from which all of these other attributes can flow only by virtue of wishful (or fearful) thinking, not by logical extension of anything intrinsic to the idea itself.

Can I imagine having a soul? Yes, I can, but I can also imagine the lack of a soul, and still value myself and other living beings, still feel awe and wonder that ordinary matter can achieve such marvelous complexity through self-organization that it ends up one day asking questions about itself and its own nature.

Can I imagine there being some Divine Purpose for my life? I can imagine that too, but I can also imagine purpose as being nothing more than what we make of the idea of purpose. I can see that my desire for a purpose in no way makes the Universe obligated to provide me with one. I can ask those who believe in a Divine Purpose the question, "What greater purpose is fulfilled by the fulfillment of Divine Purpose? I've saved my soul -- now what? I've help God build His Kingdom -- now what? Eternal Paradise sounds awfully nice, but what does having one accomplish?" After much predictable evasive dancing about, I should be able to lead an intellectually honest believer to see that whatever emotional satisfaction might come from imagining that one is working toward fulfillment of a Divine Purpose, there is no ultimately satisfactory answer to the reason we exist to be found within the concept of purpose.

Further, I can imagine many possible Divine Purposes attributed to a plethora of possible gods, but then I will decry the compelling lack of evidence for choosing any one purpose among them all, seeing among all of the Divine Purposes ever proffered by existing human faiths the same problems I have with all of the gods offered by those faiths.

Where does imagining so many possibilities while committing to none of them leave me? Not totally adrift if that's what one might wonder. Limited though my own knowledge and our collective knowledge is, there's still a great deal to "believe" in, if by "believe" one means "accept as the best possible depiction or explanation of things in the world I live now available, to the best of my ability to understand". These "beliefs" can be very strong where evidence is strong, and while I remain capable of contemplating many possible ideas, that doesn't mean I can't be a fierce advocate for what I currently believe is the best among those ideas.

Where questions of ethics and morality arise, I say that a desire for an ultimate moral foundation does not at all imply the existence of that foundation, yet I can still move forward by taking responsibility myself for the values I choose to live by. The best that I can hope for is to find common ground with others in defining a fair and just world. Unlike speculating about gods and souls and the like, when it comes to how I act in the world -- as even inaction becomes a form of action -- I am compelled to chose how to act. I cannot simultaneously act in many different ways the same way I can simultaneously entertain multiple metaphysical ideas, so here I allow my own human emotions and desires, tempered by an intellectual process which seeks self-honesty and self-consistency, to drive my choices, simply because I have little else to go on. If there's any ultimate "right" way of doing things, no one, myself included, has shown clear evidence for such a way. In the meantime, I am not dissatisfied by the possibilities of what a rational human search for morality based on finding common ground might be able to produce for moral guidelines, and I can live without believing that an imaginary Big Daddy has to be there to make everything ultimately come out right in the end.

Even without believing in "spirits" per se, I think that the feeling I have when I regard mystery is the same feeling that many people might call "spiritual". It's not always a comforting feeling. I look upon mystery and restrain myself from imposing my needs and desires upon it. That which is unknown is unknown. The unknown has no obligation to provide comfort or purpose. The unknown might yield to some of my attempts to probe its secrets, but it need not do so. I can hope that a mere human mind such as my own might understand some day some of the answers which lie beyond my reach, but I can also accept the possibility that my mind might be too limited, and that I won't be able to transcend my personal limitations simply by imagining gods or gurus or psychic powers which will be transcendent for me.

In the end, I'd much rather have good questions than simple but unvalidated answers designed to make me feel good.

No, this approach to mystery will not do for those whose are actually seeking a father figure or a security blanket more than they seek truly good answers and good questions. I'd say, however, that my approach to mystery is as honest as I can make it, and there is no shortage of beauty and wonder.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. Lovely post

all you have to think of is infinity and there is enough mystery right there for a lifetime.

[believerinchrist]

2. I'm seeking good answers and good questions...

The most important question I ask is "Why?" and the answer I want must be logical and sensible. While having a father figure is comforting and having a security blanket at times seems necessary in this messed up world we live in, I want God to be much more. I want to understand some mysteries--for instance, I want to see the Bible and science concur. The earth is dated billions of years old--could it be possible that God did not put the universe in motion until He was done creating(as a potter creates a collection)? One doesn't put a car in motion until it comes of the assembly line--time is strictly a function of motion. Therefore, one could conclude time did not begin until the collection was finished. Also, could there have been one land mass in the beginning--in the narrative of Noah, not only did it rain, but also there were continuous earthquakes and volcanoes for forty days and nights (and the fountains of the great deep were broken up).

Yes, there is beauty and wonder, but there is also overwhelming evil in our world. Where did it come from? Could God have removed Himself from a place to give the human race a choice? Does the human race have the power to overcome evil--is that why Christ came? Is the love of God (if there is such a thing) something that us free or does God truly send people to hell? Is God schizophrenic--one moment making promises of love, the next tortuing people in hell? Aw, there are so many questions!

I've been a believer in Christ since 1964 and have been through some really rough times. Through the years, I have grown to realize the absolute love God has for every single human being (He is in the business of setting people free from evil, not sending them to hell!). His love knows no bounds and He has given you the freedom to love mysteries and not necessarily seek answers. Enjoy your freedom!

[beam me up scottie]

3. Lemme get this straight, your god gave us freedom?

Was that before or after he gave his followers the freedom to oppress, persecute and kill us for not believing in him?

The Constitution gives me freedom- including freedom from religion, my protection- including, and especially, protection from religious zealots who constantly threaten my freedom, and my inspiration, when I can't stand another minute of watching said zealots trying to take away my freedom.


If you take comfort in your faith, that's wonderful, but don't expect others to acknowledge or feel grateful to your god, especially those that have suffered at the hands of so many of his followers.

[believerinchrist]

5. That is a huge problem!

I know many atrocities have been committed in the name of God. What I am saying is do not judge God by the actions of human beings. I have always said that if I looked at people, there's no way I'd follow God. I also shudder at what some "Christians" are doing to our country, and believe me, I'm praying that eyes will be opened to the love of God and not to the pursuit of a false morality. And, the Constitution in itself can't guarantee freedom because it can be manipulated. Just as some religious folk can pervert God and His love, so also politicians can pervert the Constitution. Will you throw the Constitution out, too?

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you--I'm just treating this as forum for sharing ideas.

[beam me up scottie]

7. No, you didn't offend me at all and no apology is needed.

You are not responsible for what other believers do, but it does help to understand why we are so threatened by their actions.

You do realize that atheists don't judge god, don't you?

In answer to your questions about the Constitution, I believe religious zealots and the people they helped put in power are attempting to corrupt the Constitution, that's another reason to fight them.

If they succeed and it becomes no more significant than a bible is to me, I'll happily throw it on the trash heap.

I'll still have this as my inspiration: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[Tigress DEM]

9. Wonderful way to welcome someone to DU Scottie.

The OP IS a nice post and a good attempt to help people understand the OP's ideas. If people who believe in God want to have an honest dialogue with the OP why do you have to step on it?

I totally understand your points on what has been done by people who think of themselves as Christians, but as someone who has read a lot of the Bible and who sometimes wonders if God really is out there some days because of what is going on, I still stand in my faith that THOSE people will come face to face with Christ and have a lot of explaining to do for their actions. Doing horrible things in God's name is defined in the Bible as blasphemey and it is an unforgiveable sin.

AND I prefer to believe that we each create our Heaven and Hell for ourselves somehow and I no longer put my God in a box because whenever I do, I find Him elsewhere.

I don't mind if people have beliefs different than mine or believe that "the mystery of nothing" is the answer to their search for serenity. Cool by me.

AS A STAUNCH DEMOCRAT, THOUGH, I'LL BE DAMMED IF I STAND BY WHILE SOMEONE STOMPS ALL OVER ANYONE ELSE'S BELIEFS.

Freedom of speech and oppression of it have been around long before the Constitution, and if real freedom comes from understanding ourselves or the divine in the world or each other or up above --- it doesn't matter --- it exists if we claim it and we can claim it without pushing our beliefs in someone else's face.

Instead of a snipe rant, why don't you help newbies understand like the OP did what kind of beauty lies within the freedom to believe as one sees fit without government or church interference?

[beam me up scottie]

11. Show me where I "stomped" on anyone's belief, please.

Put away your little soapbox and save the diatribe for someone who has done such an egregious thing.

[Tigress DEM]

16. It's the tone, Scottie.

"Let me get this straight YOUR God gave us freedom?" Is an "inflamatory statement and because you directed it at the poster and didn't simply bring up the valid issues, I see it as a stomp.

You probably didn't mean it that way and if it wasn't such a new person I would have ignored it or said something light, but DU is such a strong support for so many of us during this crazy time I'd hate to see someone feel unwelcome because of their religious beliefs, just as I'd hate anyone to feel unwelcome for not suscribing to the mainstream beliefs.

I own my soapbox and I wish I were better at making my case without sounding preachy, but it's been a long day.

Peace.


P.S.

Say did you hear that Rhode Island is going to try to start IMPEACHMENT from their legislature? Wouldn't it be great if this is the loophole that we can drag these bozos through so we can keep having all these wild and wonderful conversations?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=468166&mesg_id=468166


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/19/1730/42036

Carl Sheeler is running for US Senate and trying to push it through. www.carlsheeler.com

I wonder how many other blue state candidates might try to get their state legislatures to start the process if we told them that is the sign of a true blue candidate?

[beam me up scottie]

17. Funny you posted right underneath my explanation.

I guess you missed it.

You also ignored my comment regarding his faith.

I resent any suggestion that we should be grateful to believers or their gods, it's nothing personal.

[Tigress DEM]

21. I think we posted at the same time.

I was responding to you and you were responding to the other post.

I didn't ignore your comment regarding that person's faith, but it felt a little like an add on to me after the fact.

My objection was the use of "Your God" in relation to all the awful things people do that don't have anything really to do with being Christian as much as it is an excuse to get away with crap.

I re-read the post that you replied to in order to see where the "suggestion" that you should be grateful to someone else's God was... I can see now where you would resent the way it was phrased. Still, it's like you are using the same approach that you objected to and it may have been just an instant reaction/response that you didn't intend to be a personal slam, but it did look like one from here.

[beam me up scottie]

24. You don't post much in here,

so I'm sorry if I seem a little harsh.

It's a hazardous occupation.

Defending myself against the bigots I live and work with and having to see much of it repeated on DU has left me a little short on patience lately.


We're in agreement about everything it seems.

Atheists aren't a threat to the faith of liberal believers but we know all too well how organized religion and the fundies it produces are a threat to us.

[Tigress DEM]

28. Sure, now I'll come back often.

Seriously, we do agree about a lot and I do really, really feel for anyone who gets the shaft of religion banged over their head, for any reason.

What I hope you can understand is that those people who come to DU and are supportive of Democratic freedom and happen to be people of faith are NOT a threat to you. In fact, I haven't been to church in a long time myself because I need to reconcile my politics and my faith within me some more so I don't jump up on a pew and start ranting myself.

Just because someone is a believer does not mean that religion doesn't shaft us too. Those people in North Carolina who left their church because the preacher said vote for *ush or get out deserve respect as well for instance.

Still, I hear you how "faith talk" can be as annoying and irritating as second hand smoke to a non-smoker or asthmatic. I support your right to point out how belittling it is and I know there are some days you just don't feel like being someone's teacher in this area and that's ok too. We are all punchy and short of patience these days, but we still have to find ways to work together and rebuild the solidarity it will take to live together once we have our country back - what's left of it.

[beam me up scottie]

29. I really hope you do.

Some of us actually stick up for believers when stray trolls faux-atheists join DU in order to bash you guys.

We had a rash of them a few months ago.

I don't ever bash faith or question it, if it comforts you and it's used to promote tolerance, I'm all for it.

I just see red when it comes to dogma and the intolerance that's promoted by the fundies.

It's hard to adjust my antennae sometimes, I've mistakenly snapped at atheists and skeptics before, too.

I always try to apologize.

[Tigress DEM]

31. Yeah, think I will.

Lot's of times if I get on a thread like this it's already flaming anyway because I usually pick it up on the greatest page.

Sometimes I don't know if I'm helping or hurting by stepping in, but honestly, it's such a good thing to have these kind of discussions that I wouldn't give 'em up.

[beam me up scottie]

22. In response to the rest of your post,

it would indeed be wonderful if we could kick the Amerikkkan Taliban out of power.

But I've spent way too much time on DU lately trying to defeat the ignorance and intolerance that comes from the people in our own tent to get my hopes up.


Liberal believers are our allies, but they need to remember criticism of religion is not criticism of faith.

We're angry and we're going to be vocal about it.

I have no problem with someone like yourself who asks for clarification of my opinions, as a matter of fact, I appreciate the opportunity.

But many moderate christians have no idea what it's like to be the target of all the hatred coming from the Fred Phelps' in this country.

Many more don't even know any atheists, or any that are out of the closet.

They need to understand where we're coming from so that they realize we're not a threat to their faith.

[Tigress DEM]

30. Go GO! Rhode Island Go GO!

I just think with the whole IMPEACH thing we have to use our advantage of being the true majority in this country and just keep swarming onto any real chance to get these people out legally ASAP. Movements like this build momentum and if we put our weight behind this it could be the place where the damm bursts.

Even if it fails it shows the DEMS, not just the elected DEMS but the populace have teeth, pitchforks, tar, feathers.... you know? POWER. Even if it fails, we will be able to smell their fear and it will empower more to be brave and maybe MN will be the blue state to do it, or California. Who knows? But who knew that Rhode Island could even legally attempt this? I didn't. I thought we had to get DEM balance in the House of Reps to bring on IMPEACHMENT. We don't. We can do it NOW. I like NOW. I'm out of patience with the corrupt administration and all their nasty games that pitt us against each other.


AND if there were a way to IMPEACH Phelps, I'd be on board with that too. Man is a waste of breathable air. Just wish he'd shut up. I don't dare be near him or I'd be smearing dog crap all over him or something.

I do believe everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I think some stuff should come under hate crimes and that people should have ways to not have to endure his awful spew. He goes out to places and incites hatred. It's not just immoral, it's uncivil and should be regulated. Like boom box music after 10 pm - or restraining orders to keep him 100 yards away from any "object" of his venom.

[beam me up scottie]

32. My home state,

oh how I miss it, is actually talking about seceding.

Dr. Dean, Bernie Sanders, Jim Jeffords and Pat Leahy are my homeys!

[Tigress DEM]

34. WoW. RI could be *ushliath's little David with a slingshot.

You'd have to come up with a new motto and a new quarter.

[Mythsaje]

8. Welcome to DU!

I think there's a broad line drawn between true believers in Christ and those who simply call themselves "Christian." Christ was supposed to be an example for his fellows to emulate.

The history of Christianity has been a long and bloody one, full of corruption and intrigue. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

And what's made worse is that all too many Christians don't know how to critically examine their beliefs, relying on others to do it for them.

It's always good to see and recognize one of the good ones.

[Tigress DEM]

10. Welcome to DU.

Don't apologize for having an opinion.

We have such diversity that someone is always going to disagree with something you say at sometime.

I find it easiest to let people know that my faith is my reference point and so a lot of things I say have those words, but I also try to find other ways to express the same thing if possible because some people have real deep gut reactions to this evil administration and their right wing fanatics who seem to have ripped all the good pages out of the Bible and are using it as fire under the feet of anyone who disagrees with them.

Don't take personally someone else's reaction to your faith. It can get really, really ugly in here sometimes because of how the faith has been weilded as a weapon and used as a means to control the masses in the past. So many people can see how certain elements want to push us back into the dark ages. All the attacks these days on science, scientists, whistle blowers, reasonable discussion and the punishment of people who aren't "sheeple-bots" doing whatever they are told has most DEMS edgy without meaning to be.

Scotty is a great guy. Have had seen a lot of good posts by him, probably had good discussions with him too. It's just one of those topics. I'm sorry you had to get it on your 7th post, though.

Keep coming back, DU is a great place.

[beam me up scottie]

12. Yes, of course! I should have thanked his god for giving me my freedom.

How rude of me to point out where my freedom comes from.

[Tigress DEM]

23. < >

I'm not really going to respond to this in detail, because you posted them while early on and hopefully there's a better understanding on both sides.

[beam me up scottie]

26. That's a pet peeve of atheists.

So is calling atheism a "belief system".

When I read that and realized you weren't being condescending, I let it go as well.

Lots to learn about the complex lives of wild and savage atheists, eh? (I'm kidding there )

[beam me up scottie]

13. Snort!

"Scotty is a great guy. Have had seen a lot of good posts by him, probably had good discussions with him too."

Sure you have! :rofl:

[Tigress DEM]

25. But this one....

I'm glad you are so amused at any rate... but do you see how needlessly mean and arrogant this post is? I said something nice about you and you ridiculed me.

I wouldn't exactly call myself a trekkie, but I am a sci-fi fan and I recognized your login and have seen it around.

I guess this is the first time I remember locking heads and most times my discussions with people here are good even if the start out bad. I assumed you're basically a good person with a real problem with the way religion is used as a weapon and with the unintended way someone can make a disparaging remark by including you in their belief when you'd just rather be given the freedom not to be roped into the herd.

[beam me up scottie]

27. Actually, it's funny because I'm not a guy.

If you did know me, you'd know that I'm an uppity feminist as well as an uppity atheist.

If you've seen my work in Omega Minimo's threads, you'd never forget it.:evilgrin:

And my post was made before you replied to any of the others.

[Tigress DEM]

33. I've learned not to assume Male or Female...

I do get sarcastic and such at times too. It's almost an addiction at times to do the one ups. Most posters can roll with it, but when I see a newbie I want to make sure they know this is all in good fun most times even though we get some serious work done reaching accross divides we couldn't conquer if we were face to face.

The safety of being able to keep explaining until someone has a better understanding without being fully interrupted before you can get your piece out is really healing and I think it makes it easier when we do get the same situation elsewhere.

[beam me up scottie]

36. That's why I really do appreciate it

when posters call me out politely. -Note the qualifier, people!

I know how I come off sometimes, I'm not the Uppity Atheist for nothing, but I also don't want to alienate friends and allies.

I try to remember it's always better to ask for clarification before leveling my phaser at them.

I don't always succeed, unfortunately.


I have, however, made many friends on DU because we managed to get past inaccurate initial impressions and snarking contests.

[Tigress DEM]

37. No one can really know how they appear to others unless...

they are willing to ask.

I hope I was polite in all my posts. I do apologize for all caps, as that can get on folks nerves at times.

Friends?


:bounce: :bounce:



I gotta go to bed by the way. Work day starts too early for me to be doing this, but... I feel it was a worthwhile conversation. Thanks for sticking it out!

[beam me up scottie]

38. Caps don't bother me, I'm guilty too!

Definitely friends!



And boy do I ever need some sleep too.

[Silent3]

19. A little too much "wanting" going on there for my tastes.

The most important question I ask is "Why?" and the answer I want must be logical and sensible. While having a father figure is comforting and having a security blanket at times seems necessary in this messed up world we live in, I want God to be much more. I want to understand some mysteries--for instance, I want to see the Bible and science concur.

Wanting answers to be sensible and logical... with that I can concur. It follows almost tautologically that if what someone is trying to do is to make sense of the world, then the answers they find should make sense.

But beyond that, you're saying that you want the answers to come out in certain ways to work within a pre-defined scheme into which you expect the answers to fit. You might want the Bible and science to concur, but the universe is not obliged to fulfill that desire. If you're truly open to all possible answers, and ready to choose whatever best fits the evidence, something has to got give. I'm afraid that only the most desperately loose and very liberally poetic interpretation of the Bible could even come close to reconciliation with science.

Yes, there is beauty and wonder, but there is also overwhelming evil in our world. Where did it come from?

Why would evil have to "come from" anywhere? Your questions arise from what seems to me a totally unnecessary presupposition that "evil" is some sort of primordial force or some sort of entity unto itself. As far as I'm concerned, evil is nothing more than a descriptive term, not always defined very consistently from person to person, used to describe human conduct which does not conform to an expected moral code.

Defined this way, and given the biological heritage leading up to human nature, I'd find a lack of "evil" far more mysterious than the presence of evil. It's one thing to embrace all of the mystery which is already out there -- it's another thing to manufacture mystery. Wondering where evil comes from, and further worrying how God could permit that evil -- to me, those mysteries are artificial mysteries, arising only from unnecessary presuppositions.

Stop trying to impose the existence of a God as a necessary element in your solution, stop trying to turn evil into more than a descriptive term for patterns of behavior, and these mysteries evaporate.

I've been a believer in Christ since 1964 and have been through some really rough times.

I have to say that I consider that one has gotten "through some really rough times" a terrible metric of the truth of some idea which you imagine has gotten you through. Many different and contradictory faiths "get people through", with the only truth thus demonstrated is that religion can act like a drug.

Through the years, I have grown to realize the absolute love God has for every single human being (He is in the business of setting people free from evil, not sending them to hell!). His love knows no bounds and He has given you the freedom to love mysteries and not necessarily seek answers. Enjoy your freedom!

I'm not sure of which version of such beliefs you follow, but "freedom to love mysteries and not necessarily seek answers" doesn't mean much from a God who would torture you for eternity as the price for exercising that freedom. If you are self-consistent within this sort of Fundamentalist Christian doctrine, you can't free God from participating fully in ALL of this "business", and the horror of His punishments is all part of the same very bizarre plan.

[flying_wahini]

49. thanks, couldn't have said it better myself,

n/t

[beam me up scottie]

4. Outstanding post.

Recommended.

[arwalden]

6. Bra-VO!

[Tigress DEM]

14. Thanks for your personal insights & willingness to be so open.

WoW! I truly hope we can IMPEACH the bananas crew and keep our country a place of open dialogue. I can learn new things in this type of place every day and my appreciation of human kind and the passion of our beliefs* - whatever they may be - increases especially when I hear a viewpoint that is quite different from my own.

I admitt I'm an oddball "Christian." I don't do the "paint by numbers God". I'm a thinker and a sci-fi fan and still believe in the core of the spiritual experience and value the example of Christ.

I can look at God as Mother/Father/Christ/Spirit/Buddah/Forest/Mystery or as simply something that IS and needn't be fully explained, only opened up to and emmulated for the good of the community of humankind. I still get pshyced when someone has the passion to believe* and search for truth and get their own definitions enhanced by being open to others.

This kind of dialogue can be so uplifting. Hope it stays that way.

I don't disparage people who don't define god as GOD and I really think that all the elements in various religions that bring to us a God of Love or support or kindness simply give us the permission to be strong to go out and do the correct thing, whatever it is.

It's like a kid in a healthy family - rare, but they do exist and many families are healthy is some spots if not all areas - but this kid who grows up believing, "I'm loved. I'm safe. I have values that are important to live by even when it sucks to do it." is like the person of faith who embraces the real message of Christ and loves people just as they are without having to change others or their minds.

Humanism speaks to people simply being strong in and of themselves to do the correct thing, but I think even if one is of that ilk there is a lot to be said for not reinventing the wheel. I look to the example of Christ, the messages of my chosen God and other's and the example of not only Saints, but simply good people for inspiration. Then I have to decide which of these things fits for me.

The one thing that makes me believe in God more than I wonder where the Hell He's hiding while *ush and the henchmonkeys tear up our country is Serendipity. There are times I just "know" I am in the right place at the right time doing the right thing --- even if I'm on the left side doing it.

There is a connection I feel to the oneness of us all beneath the external. Personally, I haven't been able to do the nothing thing. Once I tried that "visualize yourself in a white room, empty and devoid of anything" meditation. I cheated. Because there was light in the room with me or I wouldn't have know what color the room was, I made it a bright white light which contains all the colors of the rainbow in tiny prism effects. My God was with me still in there and I was not alone that way. Not because I was scared or bored, well maybe a little bored, but because I felt a JOY that wouldn't allow those bare walls to box me in.

I think your process sounds more personally challenging, enriching. A good attempt to expand yourself to a place you've never been before and that has to have potential for personal growth.

You are correct, no one knows what the answers are AND the questions are more fun anyway.

Peace.






*(To me even your atheism is a belief system.)

[Goblinmonger]

15. I'll try this differently than my first thought

I am hoping that your * was actually an attempt to say that atheists can be moral and just people, too, and not a statement that we have a belief system in god. I am going to resist what may be a kneejerk reaction and give you a chance to explain. Don't know what came over me, probably that your avatar is the mascot of the school I teach at.

[Tigress DEM]

18. Thanks. Yeah, all types of beliefs are belief systems.....

It does not matter to me what someone believes in or not in. I value people for who they are and appreciate finding out what they believe in simply because that is a part of who they are and it makes them more interesting.

Ironically some of my best spiritual conversations have been with self proclaimed pagans. I value honesty and a person's search for truth and don't think it's up to me to decide what their truth is or "should be."

I have ideas of my own and I express them, but I only claim to know what works for me, not for others. I figure if I live my life as a good example of being Christlike then people might be more impressed than if I just mouth the "right" words.

[Goblinmonger]

20. Still a little fuzzy for me

So atheism isn't a belief system since there is no belief involved?

[Tigress DEM]

35. One of the smallest belief systems, "You flip the light switch on and.."

You believe the light will turn on barring circumstances like a burnt out bulb, power failure or a forgotten check to the electric company.

I don't think that the "religious right" owns Christ or moral values or even the word belief. It has it's own meaning separate from religion.

To me when a person contemplates what works for them they are creating their own belief structure and it may include a higher power or God or not. It is still made up of the things that ring true to that person's inner core and has value to that person and adds meaning to their life, so it's what I interrpret to be an individual belief system.

[Goblinmonger]

40. That is not a belief, that is an understanding of electrical wiring

I don't believe the light will turn on barring those things, I know it will.

One the same vein, there is no god absent any proof to the contrary. That is not a belief system in god. As BMUS said elsewhere on this thread, you will get a negative reaction from a lot of atheists for the "belief system" train of thought. I don't think you are intending to use it like a lot of the asses on here are, so I thought I would just let you know.

We can discuss why I don't have a belief system more if you want. I'm cool with that.

[NMMNG]

39. Excellent post!

[believerinchrist]

41. Hey, you guys are good for me!

I believe in my heart that God is real, and what I read in the Bible makes sense to me. I don't have the same "interpretation" as the Catholic or mainstream or fundamental or evangelical or charismatic branches of Christianity do; to me, the main concept of the Bible is love and love makes people free and does not demand punishment.

I really do look at DU as a forum to discuss ideas, especially in this topic. I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts with you (I certainly can't do it in a church). I may sometimes sound preachy (I'm a teacher), but please don't take offense.

Everyone of us is valuable and I'm glad for all of you.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

43. No problem, and welcome to DU!

I might sound like I'm recruiting or something, but when R/T gets a little, well, too interesting for you--my head explodes at least once a week just READING some of this stuff :D :D :blush:--The Lounge is always open for silliness and general hanging-out.

:hi:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

42. This pantheist says:

Fucking AWESOME post.

(Pardon my tongue.... ;)

:applause::applause:

[Goblinmonger]

44. This High School English teacher says:

Don't worry about swearing here, you're not in fucking high school right now (or maybe you are if you get this site past the filter).

[WritingIsMyReligion]

45. Oh, I know---

The Lounge (my usual "hang") knows me as quite the dirty-mouth. :D :D I just felt like throwing in a gratuitous WHOOPS!

:hi:

[Goblinmonger]

46. I, too, go to the lounge

to blow off some steam. Will look for you, and your potty mouth, there.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

47. You won't have to look too hard.

I'm fairly ubiquitous...

:D

;)

[varkam]

48. Great post.

I would've recommended it, but apparently I'm too late. I think your comments regarding nothingness are especially apt, since that is a concept that is often overlooked by a lot of people - such as death is often a concept overlooked by people. What does it actually mean to die? Surely a person's death is different from the death of a tomato plant, so what are the qualities that the irrevocable loss of terms our death?

Questions like these apply to the notion of nothingness as well, I think. A materialist myself, I think that once we die, we basically cease to exist. Nothingness. I can't possibly comprehend what that is. The greek philosopher Parmenides (sp?) postulated that there is no nothing. His argument was fairly poetic, but extremely cryptic - essentially, he said that the world in which we live, one of perceived multiplicity, things are distinguished from one another by what they are not (nothingness). Since there is no nothingness, however, reality is simply being. Consequently, perhaps nothingness is a bit of a misunderstood concept. Maybe nothingness is a way we have to describe the state of 'non-being'.

Once again, great post. I agree with much of what you said, and applaud your eloquence.