If A Person Claims To Be A Christian, Yet He Does "Un-Christian" Things...

[arwalden]

... does that mean he's not *really* a Christian? Whose standards do we use to determine if someone is behaving in an "un-Christian" manner? How many "un-Christian" things can they do before they aren't allow to be a Christian?

Fred Phelps would claim that someone isn't a Christian because that person DOES NOT smite homosexuals.

Yet another person would claim that Mr. Phelps isn't a "true" Christian because he DOES smite homosexuals.

Who's right?

If someone believes that they are a Christian, and they self-identify as being a Christian, and they want others to consider them as being a Christian... then is there anything that would "disqualify" that person from being a Christian?

Who has the authority to assess whether someone is a "True Christian" or not? Does it really matter what they say or what they do in life? As long as someone has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as the personal Lord and Savior... they'll end up in Heaven anyway, right? Isn't it enough to simply accept and believe?

Is a person ONLY a Christian because others around him agree and judge him to be worth of the label "Christian"? Or... does it not really matter what OTHER people think? Could it be that despite whatever flaws or shortcomings someone may have... whatever intolerances they posses... whatever crimes they have committed... however selfish they may be... is it simply enough for that person to be true to themselves and believe in their own heart that they are a Christian?

[Mythsaje]

1. History, apparently...

I've gotten into some debates with Christians re: slavery, the inquisition, the 'witch' burnings, the attempted genocide and theft of Native lands...

Their response? "Oh, they weren't REAL Christians."

So, apparently, the status of alleged Christians is identified years and centuries later by the very people who have motivation to disown them.

[uberblonde]

2. As J.C. himself once said...

"By their works ye shall know them." Don't pay any attention to what they say.

[trotsky]

9. Yes, but everyone sins, do they not?

What sins are "bad" enough that they mean the person is not a Christian?

[slide to the left]

3. the bible says

not to judge, that only god knows the heart of man, and that we don't have all the answers (paraphrase obviously)so trying to say that you/they are/arent a christian is kinda funny bc no one really knows

[greyl]

26. But Jesus says

"By their works ye shall know them."

Well, it's such a long collection of books there's bound to be some contradictions in it.

[Dhalgren]

4. It's just my opinion, but "Christianity" no longer has any meaning

at all. Anyone from Sigman Ri to Amy carter can claim to be a "Christian" and does. If "Christian" means "Christ-like" then there are very few Christians, indeed. But if every and any person with a greasy "Bible" and a disembodied voice in their ear can claim to be "Christian", then it has no real meaning...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. It has always been that

way. Christianity is between the Christian and Christ and nobody else's opinion matters.

[papau]

12. Very true - for many "everyman is his own priest" is at least a 700 yr old

way of looking at the relationship between the Christian and Christ

[Dhalgren]

19. This is exactly why it doesn't mean anything to say,

"I am a Christian". "Christianity is between the Christian and Christ and nobody else's opinion matters" If literally anyone with any behavior can be a self-proclaimed "Christian", then it has no real meaning for anyone outside the skull of the professed "Christian"...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. They can proclaim

all they want, but the essence of Christianity is internal dialogue between the Christian and Christ.

[Gildor Inglorion]

5. I think this passage explains it....

And it doesn't say ONE WORD about smiting homosexuals. Guess what the Rev. Phelps and his ilk will hear?

31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-46 AV)

[IsItJustMe]

7. I have the awswer: A true christian is one who can follow this example

Kristofferson Kris Lyrics - Jesus Was a Capricorn

Jesus was a Capricorn
He ate organic food
He believed in love and peace
And never wore no shoes
Long hair, beard and sandles
And a funky bunch of friends
Reckon we'd just nail him up
If he came down again
Chorus:
'Cause everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on
Who they can feel better than at any time they please
Someone doin' somethin' dirty decent folks can frown on
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me
Eggheads cussing rednecks cussing
Hippies for their hair
Others laugh at straights who laugh at
Freaks who laugh at squares
Some folks hate the Whites
Who hate the Blacks who hate the Klan
Most of us hate anything that
We don't understand

[trotsky]

8. Unless one takes the position that Christians do not sin,

there is no way to identify who is or who is not a Christian based on their behavior.

(Though many certainly try.)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Well, I have a hard time calling someone a Christian

who doesn't follow the teachings of Christ. By my definition, that is what makes someone a Christian. Christ gave two commandments to his followers: 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.


Christ's teachings also include judge not that ye be judged, take care of your shortcomings before worrying about the shortcomings of others, and to not do as hypocrites do.

From my observation, Phelps and his crew do not follow these teachings, so therefore cannot be considered Christian, despite their claims. I feel the same way about people who claim to be Muslim but don't follow the teachings of the Qur'an.

[LaurenG]

11. Talk is cheap

Some people who claim to be Christian are the meanest, most unethical people on the planet. IMHO they are not Christian in their actions therefore; "by their fruits ye shall know them". I'd say nope.

[Redbear]

13. A christian is anyone who believes in and wants to follow Christ. Period

Anyone who claims Christians are automatically more moral than other humans does not understand Christianity.

Is Fred Phelps a christian? Yes. A fact that I and many of his fellow christians deeply regret.

Christianity can be used for tremendous good or it can be used for morally repugnant ends.

[trotsky]

16. Well said, Redbear. n/t

[woodsprite]

14. Our minister said that if you can practice what was preached in

the Sermon on the Mount instead of just paying lip service, then you can say that you are truly attempting to follow in Christ's footsteps. She said that the problem with alot of evangelicals (fundamentalists are even stronger in this belief) is that they totally gloss over the whole Sermon on the Mount and they edit their own version of the 10 Commandments.

Yup, I dooooo like our minister :)

[Pharaoh]

15. Jesus said

"many will come in my name, and decieve many"

he was directly pointing at people like falwell, robertson and bush..........

[Igel]

17. I have a few competing definitions.

On the one hand, if a person says, "I'm a Xian," fine. So be it. No skin off my nose, and I treat them like I would a Muslim or Taoist. I don't own the name, and I'm not God's enforcer.

If a person has essentially the same beliefs and values and behavioral goals that I think Jesus taught, then they're Xians as far as my behavior goes. They get treated differently. I could be wrong, and it's a judgment that extends only to how I interact with them. I'm responsible for my behavior, and for whom I associate with.

A person I consider to be Xian may do moderately bad things. Or, by mistake or in a lapse of will or faith even a truly horrible thing; at some point, a deed can be vile enough to merit a public acknowledgement and public repentance, and I'll treat the person as outside the community of faith until that happens. Apostasy, for me, can be repented of. To the extent the person consistently does bad things, I avoid the person. I may try to help the person. But as long as there's sufficient effort towards actualizing the behavioral goals and belief system, I treat the person as Xian. I see no justification for withholding forgiveness if somebody asks, apart from my own personal stubbornness.

If they do something illegal and wrong wrt another person or their property, I have no problem turning them in, and I make few attempts to justify their behavior.

[TechBear_Seattle]

18. You will know them by their fruits

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'"

-- Matthew 7:15-23, Revised Standard Version

And, just because I like this bit:

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

-- Matthew 25:31-46, RSV

I think that should answer your question :hi:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

20. I dunno....

Christianity is so mind-boggling sometimes...

:crazy::crazy:




:hide:

[zeemike]

21. From my point of view

The only test I know of that is valid is the one given by Jesus himself;


21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:…
26. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:…

So the test is whether you are following and believe n the teachings of Jesus., not the teachings of any man that claims to be of God or to have spoken to him.
Nowhere did Jesus ask that we “accept him as a personal lord and savior. Those are just words made up long ago by some man and have not the spirit of Jesus in them. He only asked us to follow the teachings that he taught, which are for the most part simple and obviously righteous and are summed up by the Sermon ON The Mount. And to obey the Ten Commandments as much as it is possible. And that we believe in him.
All of the other stuff that we have heard from the false prophets and false teachers are just empty words.

[InaneAnanity]

23. Everyone who says they are a christian...

...is a christian.

Rationalizations are just another instance of people deluding themselves to make themselves feel better.

[kwassa]

27. .

[JerseygirlCT]

24. The judgement is God's alone, really

and while I'm also quick to discard those hateful people like Phelps as no Christian, honestly, that's just not my determination to make.

Since arriving at a hard and fast definition of "Christian" is near impossible, I don't know that using the term as a descriptor really says a great deal. I know what I see as the ideal toward which Christians ought to strive. But I daresay Falwell has a different ideal.

When I was a child, there was a song we sang in church: "they'll know we are Christians by our love". That's pretty much the closest I could come to a definition. And really the one that matters most.

[NMMNG]

25. If they say they are a Christian they are a Christian

But being a Christian doesn't preclude being a cruel, hateful, hypocritical ball of slime.

[ThJ]

28. There are no "true" Christians

There was only one true Christian, and that was Christ, because he was the only person perfec enough to be a true Christian, as he was God.

The rest of us are striving to be Christians, and we make mistakes along the way, because we have not been perfected yet.

However, there are those who obviously do not live according to Scripture and thus their fruits are not proof of their Christianity. You should judge a person by their fruits, not on whether or not they call themselves a Christian, and the standard by which to judge them is set forth in the Bible.

But, ultimately this judgement is God's, not ours. As individuals, we should primarily be concerned with whether or not we are behaving and acting in a Christian manner, rather than judging what our brother is doing, and as a church, we should be concerned that we represent Christ in the proper manner, which involved disciplining members who stray.

[MemphisTiger]

29. We are all sinners Christians and non-Christians alike

we all have things we struggle with. Nobody is perfect, only Jesus was. However, if we are truely sorry for the sins we have commited and have faith in the Lord they can be forgiven. If a self-proclaimed Christian routinly screws people over in business or has affairs, he never was a Christian. It isn't enough to believe in God, you must follow his laws as best you can and pray for strength and forgiveness about the ones that are a struggle for you. It's not up to us to judge another person and his walk with Jesus, IMHO.