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How many Christians here believe in hell?

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:07 AM
Original message
How many Christians here believe in hell?
Jesus was quite clear about the "gnashing of teeth" and stuff, I'm just wondering if modern liberal Christians still believe there is a hell and why.

Because the thing that struck me about the existence of hell was that given our finite lives as humans, we could only ever commit a finite amount of sin, so how is an infinite punishment of hell *ever* fair or just?

I've heard the other common stance, that by "choosing" to turn away from god, we are "rewarded" with eternal life away from him, which is hell. Still, given the limited nature of human senses as well as the flawed human messengers who are the only deliverers of god's message, how is it fair for someone to maybe make the decision to reject god in error and yet still endure hell and/or separation from god in the afterlife?
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. We make our own hell right here.
I come from a Christian tradition, but am currently a practicing Buddhist. However, this opinion formed before I became Buddhist.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yeah, that I could see.
Earth is hell. Good perspective. But that certainly doesn't fit with Christian theology.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I've never been much of a student of the Bible
but does Jesus really say anything about an afterlife Hell? I know what you mean about the gnashing of teeth, but couldn't that be right here in our own lives?
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't know about "finite amount of sin"
I think there are people (*) who by their actions become a part of the universal force of evil thereby deserving eternal damnation.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. See that's one thing that pushed me to atheism.
I just didn't see how any human - no matter how bad they were - deserves eternal damnation. Not even the Chimp. And not Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, any of them. We are finite beings, how is it possible to "deserve" eternal punishment?
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SunDrop23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. That is an interesting take on it.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. I don't really believe in heaven or hell in the christian sense
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 11:26 AM by tk2kewl
it is as hard form me to understand evil as it is to understand the concept of eternity. but what punishment would be appropriate for these most evil people that bring pain, suffering and death to millinions?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I don't know what punishment would be "appropriate".
Sorry for the cop-out. But I just know that no matter what the infraction, *eventually* you will reach a point where the punishment ceases to be fair and instead becomes cruel.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Now remember I am just spouting off and not advocating anything
i don't have a clue as to what i "believe"

...but why would punishment on some kind of cosmic/karmic/spiritual/whatever level need to be fair? and why would cruel punishment not be appropriate justice for cruel behavior? we are not talking about the state punishing an individual.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Its not a question of cruelty for cruelty
Its a matter of balance. Infinite cruelty for finite cruelty unbalances things. At some point it would seem that the cruel individual has been dealt their share of cruelty. But in this eternal mix there is no balance. It moves beyond justice and becomes evil itself.

Imagine a child breaks a vase. It's mother beats it to death. This is an imbalance of justice. The punishment in no way fits the depth of the crime. To suggest this is a fit punishment is evil in itself.

Yet this is similar to the Heaven/Hell paradigm. According to some believers, I an atheist who honestly does not see any evidence compelling enough to believe in god am going to spend eternity being tortured. And not just for my own ignorance. I also carry the burden of another (Adam and Eve). How can this in any way be considered good and just?
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Deserving doesn't enter into it
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 03:39 PM by Stunster
Choosing to alienate oneself from goodness, truth, beauty, and love, and doing so unrepentantly enters into it, or can do.

Whether anyone does this to the point where that is what they eternally will for themselves is something that the Catholic Church, to which I belong, says is beyond our knowing in this life.

Let's say, though, that a person hates Jews to such an extent that he'd rather go on hating Jews than live harmoniously in the presence of the Eternal Spirit of Love. The person unrepentantly prefers hating Jews. What happens is that when the person dies, s/he is enveloped by the Spirit of divine love. But his/her hatred of Jews is something the person wants to cling to more than to divine love---the person's soul is in a state that is knowingly incompatible with living harmoniously with divine love, and so the person experiences divine love as torment--s/he wants Jew-hatred, and hence wants to rid itself of divine love. His/her soul tells God, "Go away--I don't want you here. I want to just be here hating Jews forever."

S/he wills everlasting hatred for Jews, and thus has to everlastingly reject the divine love that is surrounding him/her. This effort to throw off divine love so that one can rest content with one's hatred of Jews is inevitably frustrated. Divine love is not something that can be thrown off. Divine love surrounds the Jew-hater. Divine love envelops every fiber of his/her being, except for one thing--the orientation of that person's will. This enrages the Jew-hater. The Jew-hater's soul wants rid of God, but it can't get rid of God. Rage and torment continue for as long as the Jew-hater refuses to repent of hating Jews. In theory, non-repentant hating can last forever.

You will object that this is irrational. The Jew-hater should give up his hatred of Jews, repent, and embrace divine love. Yes, that would be the rational thing to do. But the Jew-hater hates Jews so much that s/he would rather be irrational, than repent of Jew-hatred.

Unrepentant evil is the gravest form of insanity.

Why doesn't God just annihilate the eternal Jew-hater? Well, first, we don't know that there are any eternal Jew-haters. Maybe all Jew-haters will eventually repent in this life, or in some purgatorial experience of divine love. But suppose there is an unrepentant eternal Jew-hater. God does not annihilate, because that would be to negate God's love for the unrepentant eternal Jew-hater. God is doing what God wants--eternally loving the Jew-hater. And the Jew-hater is doing what the Jew-hater wants to do---eternally rejecting God's love, so that it can go on hating Jews.

The same reasoning applies to the option of giving the Jew-hater the possibility of self-annihilation. God insists on loving his creatures and showing that love eternally. The Jew-hater cannot will self-annihilation, not merely because he's too intent on hating Jews, but because he wills the rejection of divine love. But divine love is eternal. So willing the rejection of it also has to be eternal. And so the will with which one wills the rejection of it has to be eternal too, otherwise the rejection is not made effective.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. And all Liberals are domed to live out eternity in Hell
Yes they believe in Hell, it is all part of the Fear Factor that is sold to the whole Christian follow me tale.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Excuse me, you don't speak for me.
The question was how many Christians here believe in hell. Not how many anti-christians here think all Christians believe in hell. You don't speak for me. Your sweeping generalizations about Christians are narrow-minded and embarassingly simplistic for someone named "liberal N proud."

Not particularly "liberal" thinking when you make such unreasoned sweeping statements.

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I did not mean to offend anyone
I too believe myself to be Christian, It was more of a sarcastic piece and I should have stated that.
I do know Christians that believe what I wrote and they have told my kids that Democrats will all go to hell.
I couldn't believe that one and I should have stood up to them when they said it, but it was each to his own opinion and I was not worried about what my kids thought. It actually had the desired effect of getting them politically motivated to prove these people wrong.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Jesus wasn't quite clear on it at all...
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 11:26 AM by Selwynn
I do believe in hell ... the hell-on-earth that I believe a life without God can become. Note I said "can" become - not "is" or "will become." By best friend is an atheist and he's doing very well - I don't want to change him. But that is not true of everyone. But the potential of a "living hell" of a life that is out of control, in the gutter where depression and despair reign - that is the only kind of hell I believe in. Not some literal fire and brimestone enternity.

A far more scary future would be the promise of life everylasting with God and the simple blink into non-existence without him. Non-being is more disturbing than eternal torture in my opinion. Though I don't reject the possibilty that there is nothing more when we die for anyone - believer or non-believer. That's why I organize my values around doing the most good I can right here and now on this earth in the time I have.

The Gospel writers who attributed words to the person Jesus certainly used metaphors like "outer darkness" and a place of "weaping and gnashing of teeth" to were usually doing so in the middle of a parable - a non-literal and metaphorical story design to express certain truths. So when Jesus says things like, the kingdom of heaven is like a shepherd and his flock, I don't think that heaven is literally a bunch of smelly pastures with a man trying to avoid sheep crap while taking care of sheep. Obviously I understand that to be metaphorical.

It is less consistent for a biblical literalist to pick and choose which parts of the bible he or she wants to take literally that it is for a context-driven biblical interpretation to acknowledge that the context of most comments about "outer darkness" are parables. What's important to understand is not whether or not there is a place of eternal damnation and fire and flesh burning off and all this stuff that seems so clearly to arise from the imagination of medievalism more than the intentions of biblical authors. What's important is to understand the themes of scripture, and especially the words attributed to Jesus, which is that life without understanding the love of God and discovering and accepting loving, convential relationship with her really blows :) Life lived alienated and estranged from God - the source and ground of all being, in whome - the aposostle Paul writes - we live, and move and have our being, is the truest living hell.

Sel
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. There's actually quite a few verses that don't appear to be parables.
Matthew 5:21-22, 29-30; 10:28; 23:33
Luke 12:4-5

There was a fascinating program on cable a few weeks ago, wish I could remember the channel, which basically showed that the modern notion of hell didn't really come about until after Dante wrote Inferno. And some other author's work, too.

Apart from that - those of us who don't believe in any gods and yet seem to be pretty happy, are we living in hell and just denying it?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. You're making my case more than hindering it.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 11:55 AM by Selwynn
My point is not that all references to some kind of outter darkness were in the middle of specific parables. My point rather is that all references to certain kinds of things we talk about as a very specific concept of hell are more than open to interpretation by any reasonable Christian.

For example, Matthew 5:21 refers to "judgement" - certainly open to interpretation. Matthew 5:22 - are you familar with the greek word translated into the King James Version as "hell fire?" The list goes on and on. But let me be clear - I have no interest in getting into a semantical debate with you over the literal meaning of any scriptural text. Why? Because I am not a biblical literalist. Just because the authors who wrote the gosples attributed the the word "hell fire" - reguardless of how it was orginally intended to be understood - means little or nothing to me. I know for a host of other reasons that non only is some kind literalized "place" of enteral fire and brimstone a myth, but it is also a concept that runs contrary to some of the greatest themes of christian faith. Your comment that the modern notion of hell really didn't come about until after Dante wrote inferno fits very nicely with all the points I was making.

As to your last statement, it is not up to me to judge your life. Re-read my first paragraph again. (Edit - I forgot I added more on edit, perhaps you missed it the first time.) It is not my place to somehow give my opinion over the quality of your existence. I'm not qualified to do so. Instead I can tell you this - my life was a living hell. The lives of many wonderful men and women who speak so highly of their spiriutal faith were hell. My spiritual faith is a joy and a blessing in my life, it makes my life better, and I am a better person for it. That is the experience of many people who embrace a spiritual faith. If that is not your experience, I'm not asking you to change.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. A point worth emphasizing
a bottom line kind of statement from Selwynn:

"My spiritual faith is a joy and a blessing in my life, it makes my life better, and I am a better person for it. That is the experience of many people who embrace a spiritual faith. If that is not your experience, I'm not asking you to change."

It is my experience, too, however.

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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Happy atheists
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 04:05 PM by Stunster
Apart from that - those of us who don't believe in any gods and yet seem to be pretty happy, are we living in hell and just denying it?

I don't believe in gods either. But I believe that Reason and Value are fundamental, ontologically basic, and subsist in an eternal, unlimited act of consciousness---and I use the concept 'God' to refer to this reality. I think of God as pure, unlimited self-communicating information---which necessarily understands all possible information, and is thus 'Reason understanding Itself' (and hence is Unlimited Consciousness)---and which necessarily unites itself with and loves all it understands, and thus constitutes Value.

Let's say that you alienate yourself from (objective) reason and (objective) value in some sort of fundamental way. Would you be happy in that case? I don't think you would. For example, if you rejected all loving relationships, all beautiful things, and acted in thoroughly irrational ways, then I'd predict great unhappiness for you.

But if you embrace reason and value (and their associated phenomena), then I think implicit in that embrace is an acceptance that reality is such that it makes the embrace sensible, meaningful, and fulfilling. You think, as an atheist, that this embrace of reason and value as being something sensible, meaningful, and fulfilling, is just an oddity produced for no reason by chance, and that reason and value themselves are by-products of material evolution. I think that's really incoherent. But I don't think God is too worried by the fact that you have mistaken metaphysical views. He's more concerned that you embrace reason and value. If you remain an atheist till the day you die, and then meet God, you'll understand that your metaphysics is mistaken, and you'll see how that was implicit already in your meaningful, sensible, fulfilling embrace of reason and value (and their associated phenomena).

Gehenna was a fiery rubbish-dump into which the corpses of executed criminals were thrown, along with all refuse, garbage, animal carcasses, etc. Metaphorically, it was used by Jews of Jesus' time as a symbol of awful judgement. Now, if a sinner grasps the nature of sin (Jesus is saying), then that understanding will be an awful experience for the sinner, so awful, that he will feel that he "deserves Gehenna". And that's what it will be like in the day of judgement. The repentant will be spared hell---they will embrace God's mercy. The unrepentant will stick with their sinful will, and so accept the judgement.

And what is that judgement? That the sinner's will rejects God's mercy for ever. Which is hell.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. there isn`t any hell in my mind
i don`t know where we go but i think we do see the "light". my mom said she saw the light but something called here back.....
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. I believe in hell
but believe it takes quite a bit to get there. and that it's not the fire and brimestone place but distance from God
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. Even though I was brought up Protestant, purgatory makes more sense
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 01:15 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
than hell.

And I definitely don't believe in automatic hell or any other kind of after-death punishment for non-believers--not unless they consciously and deliberately choose evil on a scale far beyond the petty little sins that most of us commit on a daily basis.
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Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. Disclaimer: I am not a Christian.
I emphatically disagree with the notion that somehow Earth is a hell. Whatever hellish attributes human "civilization" contains, it is of our own creation. The Earth is a sacred place, and we belong in it.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Nope, I don't believe in a Hellish afterlife
It never made sense to me. For that matter, I don't believe in an overarching game of Heaven and Hell toying with us humans, the eternal good v evil struggle.

But back to Hell. I believe that's what you have here in this Life when we struggle with war, famine, abuse, substance abuse... well you get the idea.

Re: the modern interpretation of Hell. I believe it does come from two places:

Dante's Divine Comedy, the Inferno section is where he talks about all the different levels of hell and who is going the be in what level. Nevermind that this is actually abit of 14th Century satire about politicians (the Pope) of the time.

Milton's Paradise Lost is where we get the notion of the Devil as the purveyor of all things obscene and profane.

None of this stuff is in the Bible.

I personally, eventhough I'm christian, take more from the Jewish understanding of hell, which simply means separation from God, nothingness, the grave.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. Don't believe in Hell. Do believe in Purgatory and Reincarnation
Why? Because I believe that God is a loving parent. No truly loving parent sets fire to their kids. Also believe he wants us to _learn_. Hell will never teach us anything, but purgatory (maybe reliving our sins through the eyes of our victims) and reincarnation can teach us and help to refine who we are.

--------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
23. Don't conflate believing in hell, and believing anyone's in hell
I believe that hell is a logically possible state, but that we don’t know that it is realized for any human being in eternity. Despite your quotation of Scriptures and the sayings of Jesus, the Catholic Church, of which I’m a member, holds that it is not possible to say during this life with any certainty that any human being is in hell or will be in hell. So it is eminently possible for a Catholic Christian to read the same Scriptures and interpret them not as predictions, but as parables.

The theist says that the notion of a ‘rational being’, all of whose states and actions are controlled by a cause external to itself, is a contradiction in terms. So if it's a good thing at all to create rational beings, then it's logically required that at least some of their actions and states not be controlled by a cause external to themselves. Rational beings have to have some moral autonomy. This logically implies the possibility of moral evil being done by rational agents.

A morally autonomous being might want to engage in torture, genocide, and so forth. Now, what is that desire, in its moral essence? It is the basic rejection of moral goodness, and especially the rejection of love. If realized, it produces 'hell on earth'. It is the satanic impulse to hate what is good, to destroy life and beauty and replace it with death and horrific ugliness. It is sin in all its hideous malice.

Now this is the crux of the debate, I think. The ethical monotheist says that it's logically impossible for God to prevent rational creatures from fundamentally rejecting God if the point of creating rational creatures is to give them the opportunity to love God. That's the key to this whole thing, imo. Why? (NB: Like most theists, I define omnipotence as the power to do what is logically possible to do.)

Because if a rational creature is systematically prevented from rejecting God, then the relationship of that rational creature to God could not be one of love. Consider the concepts of God, heaven, goodness, love, truth, beauty, etc---the intrinsic nature of these things is such that, if rational beings are to attain or enjoy them authentically, and not some ersatz or virtual reality versions of them, then they have to be freely pursued and freely chosen by rational creatures . A being with an autonomous spiritual nature (a free will and intellect) by definition can only love God (and thus choose things like goodness, love, truth, beauty, heaven, etc) if it is free to fundamentally reject God (and hence, goodness, love, truth, beauty, heaven, etc). Hell, therefore, must be a spiritual possibility, because if it's not, then no creature is truly an autonomous rational moral and spiritual being. So 'hell on earth' must be a possibility too. And if we are truly free to reject God, then this must always be the case. If we are not capable of autonomously rejecting God forever, then we are not capable of autonomously accepting God forever.

What is God? I've suggested that we should think of God as unlimited, transcendent, self-subsistent Reason and Goodness—hence, Reason and Goodness are ontologically and explanatorily ultimate realities, whose presence is detectable by creatures like ourselves who are designed to be able to detect reason and goodness. The mystery of being is ‘solved’ by the fact that transcendent Reason and Goodness understands and wills itself, both in Itself, and in creation.

We often detect this by contemplating situations where reason and goodness have been grossly violated---Auschwitz, Fallujah, Rwanda, etc. We see what unreason and ungoodness looks like, and we instinctively know that this is not the way things were meant to be. God shows us how horrible rejecting reason and goodness is---that is, he shows how horrible rejecting God is---that is, he shows us how horrible sin is. He has given us a knowledge of good and evil, because the capacity to have knowledge of good and evil is what defines us as rational beings, capable of love. This knowledge is something that non-rational beings cannot have.

But having that knowledge, and being autonomous, means that we can create hell for ourselves and others. To be genuinely autonomous and genuinely rational agents, we must be able not only to have hellish desires, but to act on them and bring them about to some significant degree.

Hell has to be possible in order for knowledge and love of God to be possible. For knowledge and love of God are only possible for beings who can choose to alienate themselves from that knowledge and decide not to love God. In earthly terms, that expresses itself as the moral horrors we're sadly all too familiar with. But hell's possibility, in one form or another, is implied in the creation of autonomous rational beings--a rational being can lie and hate and attempt to destroy everything good. But God puts a limit on how much of that can go on. This limit is called death, and it's often seen as the divine 'punishment'. But it is actually just a loving response to sin. God says, "Ok, you want to sin? You want to inflict pain and misery? I want you to be capable of love, so I have to make you autonomous. But not infinitely so. You've got about 70-80 years or so to do your worst, if that's what you choose to do. But that's it. No more evil-doing to others for you after you die, though you'll still be free to reject Me."

Christianity goes a bit further than Judaism and Islam, imo. As I read those religions, God presents humanity with the fundamental moral choice, and it's pretty much then left up to us to choose. We can follow the right path, obey the commandments, or we can sin till we're blue in the face. But Christianity says that God loves us so much, and
is so freaked out by sin that he takes the initiative in trying to save us from our sinfulness. God himself, in the Christian account, atones for our sins by making an infinite sacrifice, involving the 'kenosis' or self-emptying of his divinity, and taking on a human nature, living a human life, and undergoing violence and hate and abuse and death---and responding not with retaliatory violence, or hate for humanity, or the annihilation of humanity ---but rather, with mercy, and grace, and forgiving love and Resurrection and Eternal Life for repentant wrongdoers.

God in his wisdom shows us that evil is not conquered by destroying the evildoer, or even by preventing the evildoer from doing the evil---because that would not get at the essence of evil. That essence is the radically disordered will, desire, intellect, etc of the evildoer. That's what needs to be healed and converted and saved---even if the person is sitting in a jail and not harming a fly.

Evil is conquered by God's everlasting insistence on unconditional, saving love. The torment of hell is knowing that this love is there, that one is surrounded by it, that it can't be destroyed, that it is eternal, and then refusing to embrace it. But your rejection of God’s love cannot conquer it---except for yourself. But even in your own case, you cannot stop God loving you. If you embrace it fully, it's heaven. But rejecting God’s love and then finding that you’re still surrounded by it, that it’s indestructible, inescapable, and eternally so---is hell.

Hopefully, we'll all embrace it, one way or another. The Eastern Christian Fathers held that the ‘fire’ of hell is God’s love. The soul who embraces and accepts is filled with blissful joy. The soul who rejects it is tormented by willing the negation of that which cannot be negated. This is the meaning of the Cross, I think. You want to crucify God, torture God, kill God? Go ahead, says God---but you cannot destroy my love for you. A soul in hell is a soul willing the negation of God’s love for itself---and so it experiences God’s love for it as love’s negation.

There is a very deep mystery in all of this. We humans think that God should destroy the sinner, so that the sin won't happen. God thinks that he should love the sinner, and should show that love by himself atoning for the sinner's sin! The satanic impulse is to accuse and condemn and destroy humanity ("why doesn't God stop these bastards--they're scum"). The divine impulse is to forgive and embrace and save the sinner.

The figure of Satan is an interesting one. Some of the Eastern Fathers speculated that Satan's sin was to be sooooo contemptuous of humanity that he refused to accept the incarnation of the Son of God---that is, he refused to accept that humans should be loved by God that much. Satan wanted to punish and destroy humanity—“they're a bunch of bastards, they deserve to be annihilated.” God, instead, wanted to become human and reveal his merciful love for us. God doesn't love us because we're good and holy. God loves us because God is good and holy. The devil couldn't get his head around that. ('Satanas' means 'accuser'. For present purposes, I'm intending this as a parabolic insight into the mystery of sin, not as a necessarily literal description of historic supernatural goings-on).

Since the atheist doesn't believe in Christianity, then of course I wouldn't expect him to accept this understanding of evil, etc. One of the reasons I am a Christian is because I believe Christianity has better insights into this particular existential problem than any other religion or philosophy. By that I mean that I don't think the problem of evil can be adequately accounted for just using the resources of science or rational philosophy. I think there is a mystery to evil, whose full dimensions only become clear in the light of Christian revelation and theological reflection upon that revelation. In particular the question of why God would allow sin rather than prevent it has some important light shed on it by the Christian doctrines of Incarnation, Cross & Resurrection, and eternal Redemption. I've also found some of the writings of Christian mystics, such as Julian of Norwich's "Revelations of Divine Love" quite
helpful.

Maybe none of this helps you to gain any deeper insight. I feel that it has helped me to gain some, not just as a matter of theological speculation, but in terms of my encounters with people struggling with the whole shebang of sin and redemption from sin---myself included, of course.




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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. I do, but...
I don't think Hell is a "punishment", exactly. I think it's just the place you go if you were that kind of person - like the natural ending to a particular road, if you will. Like if you were an evil, hateful person (think Republican here), then you will just go to the place where all the other evil, hateful people stay. That place might not be so fun, because it's filled with evil hateful people who might want to do things to you that aren't very nice, and it might have an overriding aura of evil and hate and unpleasantness. Not a punishment, a choice.

But I also think that Hell may not be eternal, in the sense that if you change your mind about being an evil, hateful person and repent and change your ways while you are there, maybe Hell would cease to be the correct place for you and you could go somewhere else.

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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Hey I LOVE your screenname! I love Rush. nt
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. Maybe a little.
But it isn't the "Inferno" that Dante described, and you certainly don't stay there forever.
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hell is real.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
30. Not for eternity.
I don't believe that God lets anyone suffer without Him forever. Maybe it's temporary; maybe reincarnation is true. I'm not sure, but I just don't think that God lets anyone away from Him for all of eternity. Can I still be a Christian and believe that? Most of the Christians I know would puke if I told them what I believe.
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Hey Nineteen Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. Existence of hell not important to me
As some posters have already pointed out, the Bible is pretty vague about hell. Most of what is believed today by many Christians is the product of 2000 years of Church tradition.

I for one cannot believe that the God I know and love would ever condemn anyone to eternal damnation. But even if hell exists in the traditional sense, it's better not to think about it too much. That's the problem with a lot of fundies - they're far more concerned with fear of damnation than they are with responding to the love of God. Somebody I know once called fundamentalist Christianity "basically a get-out-of-hell-free card." That pretty much sums it up.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Just a question
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 09:42 PM by Az
I understand you base your understanding of God on your relationship with him. But what I am curious about is how do you reconcile the theories about the nature of Hell as presented by historical perspectives on the matter. Meaning to say, are you presuming that the authors of these notions did not have a relationship with God as well? Or is this notion of having a relationship with God a more recent aspect?
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Just an answer
It's important to understand the meaning of the New Testament Greek. What is normally translated as 'eternal' is actually just 'for ages'.

I would go along with a painful spiritual purification process that lasted for ages.

At any rate, I think that is what I myself deserve.

And in case I haven't said it already, fuck Protestant (or Catholic, or atheist) Biblical fundamentalism.
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boomboom Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Those who choose in this life
to reject God, are granted their wish in the afterlife. Eternal separation from God. Amongst all their peers who also rejected God. Without his protection and mercy. That is Hell.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
35. I do, but not how you probably think.
I don't believe we have immortal souls. Therefore the idea of eternal punishment makes no sense (and just seems to me to be unbelievably, unnecessarily cruel).

I believe when you die, you're dead. Not in heaven, not in hell, not in purgatory. God may choose to resurrect you and grant you immortality. I'm decidedly pre-Millennialist, and distinguish between the Kingdom of God that Christ preached and heaven.

Those that reject God and fight him he may choose to pitch into gehenna. But it's not like I think the survival time is all that long. It's a decidedly un-Dantean vision of hell.
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