Matthew 6:5-6 - What does it mean to you?

[trotsky]

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

This passage, to me, pretty much invalidates every public display of religion that the right-wing fundies are trying to do. I have looked at it every which way to find a way "out" of it, but cannot. The strongest thing about it is, it's supposedly the direct words of Jesus.

I was wondering if anyone here knows how the fundies contort their way out of the literal meaning of this passage? How can they justify seizing the PA system at a high school football game to say a prayer? Why do they feel they need to post the Ten Commandments in public buildings?

[hippiechick]

1. They're trying to convert us 'heathens' ??

:shrug: Maybe "don't do as I do, do as I say " is really their motto ?? :shrug:



:hippie:

[GetTheRightVote]

2. It is beautiful, the passage but the right wing probably have not read it

:kick:

I am glad to have seen it here, thank you.

[ktowntennesseedem]

11. The right know that passage well, but fail to connect the dots.

They talk alot about believing the whole bible, and if you ask about any passage of scripture in particular, such as this one, they be quick to say they believe it, too. But they seldom are able to see how one passage ties into another, and how one part of the bible might just necessitate a closer look at other parts (can't see the forest for the trees).

So for them, Jesus' words have to do merely with praying out loud just to show off in front of others. As long as you say you're sincere in your prayer, its okay to say it so that others might hear. And if a non-believer happens to listen in, you might just reach them and save them. But they don't begin to see Jesus' words as a condenmation of all public displays of worship.

[DulceDecorum]

15. They talk a lot ...

7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
8
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

[Dookus]

3. I always quoted that at the fundies

outside the abortion clinics where I volunteered as an escort, and none ever gave a reasonable answer. They always felt that the rightness of their cause somehow gave them leave to ignore the direct words of their savior. :shrug:

[Lefty48197]

10. Plus...

if somebody were actually KILLING BABIES, what would a rational person do? Pick up a protest sign? Write their Congressman?

[WLKjr]

4. a very religious guy I know that is way older than me

cited something similar to that to me at work a few weeks back when I voiced disgust at all these fakers and some people I work with that are always telling everyone how they go to church and they are saved etc etc etc and very vocal about it and I said something to the fact that I keep my belief private, and he told me that is the way it should be and had similar thoughts to the fact. That's when he said something along the lines of what you posted.

[oscar111]

6. Jesus:"sell all and give the money to the poor" Luke 18:22

that really refutes all greedheads, IMO.

Bush will have to become penniless to be christian. But will he? LOL

[WLKjr]

8. my mom would fit that role

she has always told me that if she ever ever ever got rich somehow she would become a philanthropist(spelling?) because it makes her feel good to know that she has helped someone in some way. She's not rich, but she still gives a lot even now. From time to time I even cough up some extra money when I can to a charitable cause. I am damn picky about who I give to for a few personal reasons.

[Rowdyboy]

5. Speaking as a Christian, I have NEVER understood why this verse

is ignored. Prayer is a private matter, not for public approval, disapproval, or analysis in general. Its an intimate function, not one to be shared with a roomful of near-strangers.

One reason I love the Episcopal Church is that members are never asked to pray aloud extemporaneously. All prayers are repeated in unison read from the prayerbook by the congregation. I'm far more comfortable with that.

[Hardrada]

25. Lutheran by background here

We also had excellent liturgical prayers which we all intoned in unison. The pastor's prayers were pretty much fixed too as is the case with the prayers in the Catholic breviary. The reason for not letting just anyone get up and ramble on extemporaneously was purely practical. It would take up a lot of the time needed for the rest of the service since there is a tendency among many to start to "chew the scenery" as it were. And if one is in for a long sermon anyway there is no need for a lot of sermonettes.

[shoopnyc123]

7. Well he was addressing the hypocrisy of of fundamentalism...

...that has NO connection to the real deal. And it is the source of the difference between Catholicism and and Protestantism, meaning, that in Protestantism, you need NO intermediary between you and God, as opposed to Catholicism, where the intermediary is an ordained part of the process of communing with God. I think this is correct.

[Dookus]

12. Huh?

Jesus was discussing the Reformation?

Catholics don't require a priest to pray.

[shoopnyc123]

13. Sorry if I was unclear...

...the priest, from what I understand, is a must have intermediary in Catholicism; right?

[Dookus]

14. Not for prayer

but for the confession and absolution, yes.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

27. No, He was talking about the Priests of Judiasm... the Pharisees

called themselves Priests long before the Catholics took the term.

They may still, I am not sure.

[Lefty48197]

9. My favorite quote from the bible.

Use it often.

[saltpoint]

16. This is easily one of the most agile posts --

-- I've ever seen on the world wide web.

I'll pay for the postage to send copies to Falwell, Phelps, Robertson, Franklin Graham, and other right-wing Christian nutcases.

Wait -- I can't afford that much postage...

[Lizzie Borden]

17. That's the beauty of the Bible...

You can pick and choose just what parts you are going to quote this week, and next you can quote something that will be diametrically opposed to it. Many Christians don't have a problem with this. Their brains must be much more flexible that mine.

[shoopnyc123]

18. I agree, mostly the old testament though...

...the New Testament is MUCH better, and in some eyes, makes the old testament obsolete.

[Dr.Phool]

19. My favorite verse out of the Old Testament

And I shall take dung and smear it in your faces.

[riverwalker]

20. the direct words of Jesus.

which is why it is so beautiful. Fundies have little regard for direct words of Jesus. They like Paul, and the OT, but when it comes to Jesus, they just barely tolerate him, like an embarassing cousin.
All of his parables and quotes just befuddle them. They don't get it.
No matter what the subject is, they will avoid Jesus and support a belief with Paul or the OT.

[saltpoint]

21. Very true.

They love their Paul because he's such a judgmental prick, and they positively swoon over their Old Testament Jahweh.

'Cause Jahweh smitith the sinner!

They need a dose of their own Jesus.

[beanball]

23. Knowledge of the Bible

in my opinion most of the so called rightwing Christians have knowlege of the Bible,but they don't understand the Bible.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. I've used it in arguments about school prayer, which is one of my pet

peeves, because I know two things:

1) No one can prevent anyone from praying silently

2) The fundies relish the idea of their children showing off their piety in front of their classmates

[Behind the Aegis]

28. well stated!

I pray often, but I make no grand gestures. Of course, I am pagan, so it is not required to be grand. Whenever I see a dead animal in the road, I say a prayer to Artemis. No one in my car knows that I have done that! I also never pray for anyone that has not asked for it or has said it was OK for me to do it. It comes down to one word...RESPECT! I respect those who respect me. Do not require me to live by your beliefs, as I do not require it of you. You speak of "showing piety" and that is of no consequence to me. It is sad that others feel that is what makes them "good" whatevers!

You have made two really good points! It is sad more do not take it to heart!

BTW....I love your posts. I have seen so many and you are sage in your own right!

[yellowdogintexas]

24. must show piety...must convert...must be holier than thou

It has always seemed to me that the act of prosletizing and conversion are far more important to the more fundamentalist Christians than the commandment to keep your thoughts and prayers between God and yourself.

I'm a Methodist. As descendants of Episcopalian/Anglicans, we are not called on at the drop of a hat to pray extemporaneously. There is even a little joke that we don't know how. Prayer is such a personal and private thing.

Back in the day when we had "morning devotions" in school, the Methodist kids, if called on to lead closing prayer would either have us all repeat the Lord's Prayer or bow our heads in silent prayer. The Baptists and Church of Christers would go on about saving, so those unsaved would see the light, etc. I hated it. Even in a very homogenized community like ours (hey, we were all some sort of Protestant or another), there was resentment of the implied messages in these devotional services. My Methodist friends and I used to discuss it at length.

I think the Ten Commandments thing somehow is related to the belief that we are founded on the Bible (not) and that much of the basis of our law (which is derived from English Common Law) stems from the Ten Comm. It is a strong moral code, grant you that.

In fact, phrased slightly differently, and couched as say, "The Ten Universal Laws" (or perhaps nine, leaving out the worship parts).

These things shall be illegal across this nation, regardless of state:

killing
adultery
robbery
coveting that which is not yours
falsehood or untruth
etc.

it would be received differently.

<My feeling is if it has been there for a century, leave it alone. Don't add it if it isn't there already.

[vixengrl]

26. It's a verse I keep in mind, especially because of the dig--

"I tell you the truth they have received their reward". Because praying in public is like going to a trendy restaurant--it's about being seen.

[catbert836]

29. I wonder if any Christian musicians have ever read that passage?

Hmmm... it would destroy their whole industry if applied.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. Don't make the mistake

of assuming that most fundamentalist christians are hypocrits. It's far scarier than that - they really believe that god wants everyone else to live and think the way they do, and that they have a duty to make other people do so.

In fairness, I want everyone to live and think the way I do, to, but the difference is that I believe that the end doesn't usually justify any means stronger than trying to persuade people. Many fundamentalists believe that they have a duty to compel people to become conservative christians for their own good, though.

I can see lots of ways around the above passage, of varying degrees of speciousness. For one thing, I'm pretty sure there are lots of things that say exactly the opposite in the bible - I'm not a theologian, but aren't thwere commandments about being a light to the world and not hiding one's lamp under a bushel?

[trotsky]

31. The "beauty" of the bible

Yes, it's true, if you find one verse that means one thing, it is generally pretty easy to find another verse meaning the complete opposite. That's one of the many problems with basing a religion on an ancient text written by superstitious nomads and priests looking to control them.

Returning to the issue at hand - one could claim that the "being a light" part means living your life as a good Christian, and letting THAT be how you promote your religion - not having to cram it in people's faces or use the power of government to display it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. But from a Fundamentalist point of view,

Converting people to christianity is guaranteeing them eternal life, and is thus doing them far more of a favour than any material help you can provide. If I believed that, I think I'd do everything in my power to cram it down people's throats.

I think the flaw is in the belief, not the execution.

[trotsky]

33. The bible to the rescue!

Luke 9:5 - "If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them."

Doesn't sound like Jesus wanted any cramming done.

[Ando]

36. A slight modification

1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3He told them: “Take nothing for the journey–no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them.” 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.

There is a difference between preaching the kingdom of God and cramming it down someone's throat. I agree with the spirit of your post, but Jesus clearly told his disciples to go and preach to unbelievers.

[trotsky]

37. Doesn't change it one bit.

Clearly disciples are to preach, and if they are not received, QUIT. LEAVE. That isn't enough for the powerful Christians today, though. If we won't voluntarily accept their version of morality, they'll use the power of government to enforce it.

It sure would be extremely helpful, though, if Jesus bestowed upon modern evangelicals some of that healing power. Bet it would help convert people by the thousands, maybe millions! What a great way to bring people to the lord! Aren't we aren't worthy of magical healing today? Does god not care about souls like he used to?

Some more context to this verse - a variant appears in 3 of the gospels:

Matthew 10:5-6 - "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.'"

Only Jews should be preached to? Interesting!

You're only helping prove the point - virtually anything can be read into the bible, and sadly, history shows us that nearly everything has.

[Ando]

39. I think you are proving the point

I think that your point is almost correct. Yes, using verses out of context can produce "virtually anything". Yet you commit that fallacy to bolster your own arguments? As for your "QUIT. LEAVE." assertion, you are reading more into the verse than is there. It doesn't say don't preach, it doesn't even say quit. It only says to shake the dust off your feet when you leave. Where is the time constraint in the verse. Here are some verses from later in the same chapter:

26“So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Clearly the call is to evangelism. I've already granted your point that certain methods of evangelism are rude and ineffective. As to only preaching to the Jews, that is an easy one. Have you ever seen a burnt-out preacher, the one who takes on the World and breaks his back? I've seen tons of them. This is an example of Jesus being practical, you don't send someone who has never played football before to the NFL. He sent them to preach to those they could relate to first. Later in the NT the Macedonian Call sends Christianity to the Gentiles.

Now to miracles. That is an interesting question that almost deserves its own thread. The presence (or lack thereof) of miracles is more dependent on the climate of the culture than the willingness of God. There are incredible stories of miracles coming out of the underground Chinese Church. The miraculous always seems to be on the frontlines of Christianity, where the push is happening. In the USA, we're not facing the test of accepting Christianity and its messengers. We don't face persecution and death for our beliefs. We are facing the test of complacency and comfort. The lack of miracles is due only to our doubt and unbelief. As for proof of miracles, I have already tried and I'm sure you could explain away any more I might offer.

[trotsky]

40. Yep, you can read virtually anything into the bible.

Glad you agree with me. Of course, there are millions of Christians who will say that YOU are reading it "out of context", so there we are. No one can conclusively demonstrate that "This is exactly what is meant by this verse" - because if that were possible, there would be no sects or denominations of Xianity, you'd all still be in one unified church instead of fighting and killing each other for heresy through the ages.

The history of your faith proves my point.

Regarding miracles, that's a total cop-out explanation. Miracles of healing would fly just as well here - but because we are a more educated and informed populace with easy access to medical technology, we are better able to know that if someone was "healed" that they either weren't really sick in the first place, or they were healed via a non-miraculous process. Like one's white blood cells.

Umpteenth-hand stories of miracles in China just don't cut it. Sorry.

[Ando]

42. no, it is possible

Of course, there are millions of Christians who will say that YOU are reading it "out of context", so there we are.

There are? Can you tell me which sect of Christianity thinks that only the Jews should be preached to? Which sects of Christianity prohibit evangelism? Where are these millions that disagree with my rendering of the text?

Yes, there are things that Christians debate, but there is much that we don't debate as well. Understanding the Bible in its context, both within itself and within its culture, is critical. Most disagreements can be solved by a further reading of the text and by understanding the images and types as related to Hebrew culture. It's called Biblical Hermeneutics, the two major laws are frequency and first use. You want to know what's important to God? Then find out what he talks about the most. You want to know what a word or concept or symbol means? Look up where it's used first and you'll get the foundation for the typology.

As an aside, mircles are experiential, they almost always only affect those who witness them. Yet another annoying thing about that damned blind faith.

[trotsky]

43. Responses

Can you tell me which sect of Christianity thinks that only the Jews should be preached to?

Jews for Jesus

Which sects of Christianity prohibit evangelism?

I'm not sure where this came from - I never claimed it. I did claim that Christians should "shake the dust off" and leave people alone if they don't want to listen to the same old story again, based on verses in the bible. Still, if I were to wager on it, I would be quite confident in betting that there's SOME Christian sect out there that does not believe in evangelizing.

Where are these millions that disagree with my rendering of the text?

All around you. Every Christian sect disagrees with every other, on at least one bible verse. That's why there are sects! And for much of your history (and even up until the present day) you've spent a lot of time killing each other.

Most disagreements can be solved by a further reading of the text and by understanding the images and types as related to Hebrew culture.

Nope. Biblical literalists take the text as written, and believe that you are going to hell for trying to "interpret" verses beyond what the words say.

As an aside, mircles are experiential, they almost always only affect those who witness them.

Naturally. It's very important, if you don't want anyone to be able to question your faith, that you make sure all your beliefs are non-falsifiable. A solid (if intellectually bankrupt) way of maintaining a belief system.

[Ando]

45. granted

I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure what we're arguing anymore. Biblical literalists are just plain wrong, at least that's my belief. I was just trying to throw out some arguments against "one-lining" the Bible. A lot of people throw out one verse arguments against Christian doctrine without reading the context or understanding the cultural symbology behind an image or type. This forum in general dislikes those fundamentalists who take a literal view of the Bible, yet we tend to criticize them using the same tactic. It would be better to understand the Bible than trade one-verse barbs. I'm not really arguing with you (yet), I just thought that your interpretation of the Luke passage was slightly off.

[Pikku]

34. Matthew 23:15 on proselytizing

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[GOPBasher]

35. The fundies these days are just like the pharasies and the

Jewish high priests back in Jesus' time. If Jesus came back, they would not believe it's Him, because he'd be saying something like, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." They wouldn't believe it's Him. They'd be waiting for something like, "Homosexuals are the worst people on earth. God hates fags." He wouldn't say anything like that, so they wouldn't believe it's Jesus.

[kwassa]

38. my interpretation

the quote:
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

your interpretation:
"This passage, to me, pretty much invalidates every public display of religion that the right-wing fundies are trying to do. I have looked at it every which way to find a way "out" of it, but cannot. The strongest thing about it is, it's supposedly the direct words of Jesus."

I think you missed the point of this passage completely. The point that Jesus makes is to not be a hypocrite in your faith, as God will see whether you are sincere or not, whether you pray in public or private. Jesus criticizes those who make a great public show of prayer, but DOES NOT say that all who pray in public are hypocrites. He basically says to be sincere in one's prayer.

[Dob Bole]

41. It's a comforting verse...

The fact is, many fundamentalists would be afraid NOT to follow this verse. But you are referring to an element of the religious right, the televangelists, advocates of forced school prayer, etc.

You must understand that the religious right is mostly hypercalvinist, like the Puritans. And like the Puritans, they are seeking to build a "city on a hill," or earthly demonstration of God's kingdom. They see what they are doing as evangelism, or a part of their larger plan.

[MemphisTiger]

44. I think what this passage means is don't do it for the sole

purpose or any secondary purpose to be seen. If the spirit moves you, pray anywhere you want. I see it like the politicians that sit in the front pew and don't sing the hymns with the rest of the congregation. I personally don't have a problem with anyone praying in public as long as you don't expect me to pray with you.

[patricia92243]

46. "We still Pray" bumber stickers are bragging about their praying. Too bad

thse same people don't read the Bible as well as pray.