A question about certainty

[TallahasseeGrannie]

I've been thinking about what motivates people to kill.

Folks that know me here know I am a believer and while I'm serious about it, I'm the first to admit it is faith and not logic. Now, that said, I have to therefore acknowledge that I have no proof and I could be wrong. Very wrong. But I have strong intution and other sorts of experiences/feelings that bolster my faith, so I'm not quite shooting in the dark.

However, I could never take up arms and kill somebody based on that faith. And I don't quite get the motivation of people that can. Or who can blow themselves up in the marketplace because they are so CERTAIN they will go to paradise. This certainty apparently exists everywhere, Christian and Muslim and Jew and "other." And it has obviously existed over the ages.

What is the difference between them and between me? Sure, I'm a pragmatic type of person. But I COULD kill to save my family, my students, even for an ideal. And maybe if Jesus showed up every day like to "Joan of Arc" I could kill for the faith. But He hasn't.

Any thoughts?

[laruemtt]

1. personally speaking, i am totally violence averse.

in my distant adult past, two different people on different occasions physically attacked me and my first instinct was not to hit back but to run. i ran and got away and that was it. to this day, if i sense anything anywhere going towards violence, i'm gone. i don't understand the need or desire for violence at all. ever.

[Iblis]

6. That's a nice sentiment.

Hmm...Anytime anyone says "I don't understand the need for violence...ever." I'm reminded of these quotes...

"My mother said violence never solves anything."

"So?" Mr. Dubois looked at her bleakly. "I'm sure the city fathers of Carthage would be glad to know that."
---------------

"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that "violence never solves anything" I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."

--"Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlein

************

Would you have had the same response to those attacks if you were with your mate? Or your children?

Just Curious. The idea of someone who does not defend themself fascinates me.

L

[laruemtt]

8. i've always been able to get away.

once when my sister was in a dangerous situation, i and some friends got her out. my dad who was the most spiritually evolved person i've ever known and i had a "lively discussion" once when i found a gun under his pillow that he kept for self defense in case anyone broke into the house. i think i've always believed it is better to lose your life than to kill. but i believe we do not end at death. i like gandhi, jesus, and martin luther king. of course, they all got killed! physically in the here and now, that is.

[Iblis]

10. Okay, just so I understand...

You would choose slavery and/or death over fighting for your life?

Fortunately for most of us, not everyone feels the same way; allowing you the luxury of your belief.

L
"And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated. And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the moneychangers, and overturned their tables." (John 2:14-15)

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take , and likewise scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. " Luke 22:36

[laruemtt]

14. certainly there is just anger.

i am just not willing to kill. call it a luxury if you want. is that what you would have said to gandhi or MLK? no i'm not comparing myself to them, believe me. maybe it's because i've come close to death once and i am not afraid of it.

[Iblis]

17. Certainly.

I share your feelings about death, but I will also call it a luxury to say that violence is never justified.
----------------------
Let's say you are walking on the beach with your 4 year-old daughter. You are approached by a large man. He demands your wallet. You, being the non-violent person who doesn't believe in clinging to possessions, hand it over.

Then he demands the little girl.

I suppose you could run. Or die. Or give up the girl.
---------------------------

Ghandi. Ghandi said that the Jews should willingly go into the ovens and that England should have given up in World War II. Sorry, I got to part ways with Ghandi there.

I'm not saying violence in the ONLY or FIRST answer, but that some things are worth fighting for.
Your first post stated NOTHING is worth violence.
"i don't understand the need or desire for violence at all. ever."


Just checking. Not attacking. Just wondering.

L

[laruemtt]

19. in all fairness

i don't have any children, so i cannot honestly say how i would react under the circumstances you gave. i haven't yet lived all circumstances that are ahead yet either. i know up until today how i have responded and what my instincts have been. then, of course, if someone tried to hurt my husband and i weren't able to get him away, my response to that is yet to be known. someone did grab my 90-year-old mother's purse last year - i was living 700 miles away at the time. if i had been there then, that would have been another major test. but here we are april 10, 2006, and no doubt there is more to learn.

[Iblis]

20. As I said...

all I'm doing is asking.

I commend you for your commitment to your belief.

thank you for your answers,

L

[laruemtt]

22. sure. thanks for causing me to

review my beliefs. let's hope none of us is tested! peace.

[Duer 157099]

2. Yes, here's a thought:

It isn't a question of "faith" it's a question of morality.

Some people foolishly equate the two.

What you descibe in yourself is morality, probably derived from your faith.

[Warpy]

3. Not sure if I would ever be able to kill

because we Buddhists know that our enemies will only come back, only they'll have worse Karma and know how to hurt us even more efficiently.

I'd rather damage one badly enough that I can get away.

It's true that religious certainty is the shortest route to getting someone to commit an insane act of violence against people he doesn't know. There's nothing like a promise of an instant trip to Paradise to a believer to make him do these things. It worked in the Crusades, too.

[bloom]

4. I don't think that it is certainty as much as desperation

for most people.

The leaders may push the religious aspect to steer people into feeling rewarded for their martyrdom. But I think if the suicide bombers had other options to have themeselves and their group be included in society - they would take them.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. Poor Joan.

Burned at the stake for being schizophrenic and telling people about the voices she was hearing.

EDIT: And it was St. Michael who talked to her, not Jesus.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. You know, I actually miswrote that

I was thinking of the TV show Joan of Arcadia. I forgot they changed the title. It was an interesting show where God showed up as all sorts of folks.

[Iblis]

7. IMHO, "God" has been used as a justification for violence

more than any other reason...

"With God On Our Side" by Bob Dylan

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

[beam me up scottie]

25. Wow, Iblis.

Thanks for reminding me of that song.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

So profound, even today.

Especially today.





A belated welcome to DU.:thumbsup:

[Iblis]

26. Thank you.

That song's been popping up a lot in my life lately. It seemed relevant to the discussion, so I thought I'd post it.

This song and "Eve of Destruction" are both sadly as relevant today as they were when they were written...

L

[beam me up scottie]

27. The words moved me to tears.

I was listening to a digital recording of a Bruce Springsteen concert last night.

One of his monologues addressed the young people in the audience.

He talked about his generation's war, Vietnam, and said that it was up to them to stop the next one.

That was a couple of decades ago.

And now it's too late.

I don't think enough people listened to what Bob Dillon or Bruce Springsteen had to say.

[Karmakaze]

11. You know, I doubt ANYONE has ever killed because of their faith...

Sure they may have justified it that way, or may have comforted themselves that their death would be followed by a reward, but I seriously doubt anyone has killed (well except for crazy people) solely because of their faith. For example Arab suicide bombers don't kill because of Islam, they kill because of historical and current abuses of them and their people.

"But I COULD kill to save my family, my students, even for an ideal."

Well that makes you no different from a suicide bomber. That is why they kill too. Sure they make themselves feel better about it by saying Allah is on their side and will reward them, but they kill because they feel that is the only way to defend their people, their way of life, and their ideals.

I would too, if I felt I had no other choice.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. So you feel that the faith issue

is kind of a red herring, then? What about during the awful civil wars in England? Do you think, therefore, they were actually about property, power, and not faith?

[Karmakaze]

35. The Christian church...

was about property and power!

Let's just say faith is an excuse for all sorts of things, but it is not the cause of them.

[Iblis]

13. What about the Crusades?

No matter what their leaders' motivations were ultimately found out to be, some people must have honestly believed that their faith was under seige?

Just wondering,

L

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. Or was it a guy

thing because the dudes in turbans had taken the Holy Land, which theretofore had been their TERRITORY? (I think territorialism has caused way more wars than religion ever has or will.)

[Iblis]

18. However

If the "guy" believed that they were ordained by God to have that territory and the "guys in turbans" are defiling that land and God by being there, then wouldn't faith have something to do with it?

Hmmm.

L

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. Or is it the ultimate male strawman???

[Iblis]

23. Worth thinking about...

I still say there are people, even now, that believe that God tells them to do things.

"Men go crazy in congregations but only get better one by one" --Sting

L

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. The Afghans who wanted to kill the convert to Christianity

wanted to kill because of their faith. The religious executions in Europe after the Reformation were killing because of faith. There have been plenty of cold blooded killings 'justified' by proclaiming one religion superior to another.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. And that goes back to my question

where do these folks get the certainty that their faith (which by nature implies doubt, I think) is real?

But you know, I've been thinking. (always dangerous) and wonder how much religion is used as an excuse. When what you really want is the fellow's wife, daughters, slaves, treasures, house and lands, it is much more acceptable to kill him because he is an infidel. You look much better as a person of faith, protecting the faith.

I just know if I am ever going to kill for Jesus Christ, he is going to have to stand in front of me and hand me the sword, because I won't do it on faith alone.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. It's a certain type of personality, I suppose

We tend to think we judge things better than average - most people think they are better drivers than others, and most think they have a better understanding of 'real life' than average. Some people may just take that to the extreme of felling certain they know the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.

It is probably made worse by the 'siege mentality' of some sects. If we can see other people as humans just like us, we can entertain the notion that they've got something right that we've gone wrong. But if your priest or holy book tells you that there are evil people looking to catch you out and distort your religion, it makes entertaining doubts a sin in itself. Cut yourself off like that, and then your own thoughts, with the one religion you've decided on, become the 'only truth'.

Yes, religion has often been used as an excuse for grabbing power and wealth - the Arab expansion, the Crusades, the Spanish conquest of Latin America, and many more, I'm sure.

[Karmakaze]

37. Or did he simply represent...

the "foreign invader" and faith was simply used to justify their hatred of him?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. Was it really their faith

or was it a male power thing? Tow our line or die?

[trotsky]

30. Not buying that.

What about people who bomb abortion clinics or assassinate abortion-providing doctors?

It might be hard to extricate religious motivations from political/social ones, but they are there, and can move people to kill.

[Karmakaze]

36. Where in the bible does it say...

bomb abortion clinics? In fact the parts of the bible I see say things like "thou shalt not kill" or "judge not lest ye be judged".

So was it their faith or their ignorance, or plain old insanity that led them to kill, and their "faith" was simply used as justification?

[trotsky]

38. That's not the point.

Their faith that a fetus is a complete human being is what compels them to "protect" fetuses. And eye for an eye is indeed a guiding principle of the bible - at least to them it is.

Look, it doesn't invalidate religious faith to acknowledge that it can indeed be used as justification for evil as well as good. Worse, if we can't learn from history, well, you know how that saying goes.

[Karmakaze]

39. Actually once again....

Where in the bible does it say a fetus is a complete human being?

In fact I remember plenty of occaisons int he bible where it refers to children as chattel (ie same status as furniture) and in fact stories of sacrificing children etc.

See, its not their religion that taught them these things they believe, and it is not their religion that compelled them to kill because of those faulty beliefs. There is something else - the vast majority of Christians don't do it, why these particular people? I say it is because they are themselves insane and merely use religion to justify their crimes.

David Berkowitz said god told him to kill - was it his faith that led him to kill or the fact he was total nut job?

[trotsky]

40. "In the womb you knew me"

How far do you want to go with this?

Quite simply, you can read just about anything you want in the bible, because there are enough contradictory and confusing passages that there's plenty for everyone.

The vast majority of Christians don't bomb abortion clinics because they've learned respect for a secular legal system. Thank god!

(Re: David Berkowitz - can you prove god DIDN'T speak to him?)

Faith and religion lead people to kill all on their own.

[Karmakaze]

41. Seriously?

You really believe it is respect for a secular legal system that prevents most Christians from becoming murderers?

I'm not religious in any way, but even I can see that religion is not what causes these people to carry out their acts, but their own insanity. If it wasnt religion, it would be something else - the neighbours car is too loud, the children across the street look at him funny, whatever it is, this kind of psycho will kill. Blaming it on religion doesnt make any more sense than blaming it on noisy neighbours or nosy kids.

Just like I don't believe porn makes rapists, or video games make violent kids, I dont believe religion CAUSES war. It is an excuse, but not a CAUSE.

[trotsky]

42. And I think your opinion is terribly naive.

It's one thing to say that one particular person's religion would never make them want to kill someone, but it's something else entirely to insist that religion itself could never be to blame.

It can be. And has been.

(By the way, can you prove Berkowitz didn't talk to god? I notice you didn't answer that.)

[Karmakaze]

43. Can you prove God exists?

Until then, I will take it for granted that Berkowitz was just a nutter, and was NOT talking to god.

"It's one thing to say that one particular person's religion would never make them want to kill someone, but it's something else entirely to insist that religion itself could never be to blame."

Ok lets walk throught this - they have the same religion right? The guy who bombs abortion clicics, and the thousands that don't? In fact they believe the same things - there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions that believe abortion is wrong because of their religion, but they don't bomb abortion clinics.

So why did the guy do it? Because of his religion? Or because he is a nutter that used his religion as an excuse to kill?

If you look at every crime commited in the name of religion, you will see an underlying cause - often pure greed. They have something I want and are a different religion - God told me to kill them and take it! You see the same affect in politics. How many people have died because they were on the other side of the Communism-Capitalism argument? Does Capitalism require the killing of Communists? Or is it that Capitalists want to protect their power and wealth and use politics to justify it?

[trotsky]

44. Your entire position is predicated on being able to read people's minds.

I'm sorry, but I doubt your ability to do that. As such, I am forced to take people at their word, and clearly some folks throughout history have murdered, raped, tortured, and much, much more in the name of their faith.

But hey, feel free to be an armchair psychiatrist.

[Karmakaze]

45. No, not their minds, their actions...

I call you a heathen and kill you, then take your land. Is it that far fetched to think taking the land was the reason, and religion the excuse?

[trotsky]

46. Except that taking land isn't always the motivation.

If you could always point to something being gained, you might have a case. But sometimes violence is carried out simply because someone is convinced god wants it done.

What do the abortion clinic bombers gain?

[Karmakaze]

47. Ok perhaps you need to go all the way back to my original post...

and note that I said "except for crazy people". Sure a crazy person may kill because of their beliefs, then again they may do it because of noisy neighbours, or the kids across the road looked at him funny, or god told him to through a friends dog.

Crazy people don't need excuses, anything could trigger them off. BUT in that case, it is their insanity that is to blame, not the religion itself. What I am really talking about are the completely sane people. You find one of them who kills solely because of religion. I doubt you will find even one - there is ALWAYS another motive, one a lot more immediate than "it will please god", like "I'll get rich" or "I'll be powerful".

[trotsky]

48. OK, then you need to go back to what I said.

How can you tell someone is crazy? All you're doing is creating a tautology by saying any action taken in the name of religion that doesn't result in the acquisition of something is insanity. Baloney.

I doubt you will find even one - there is ALWAYS another motive, one a lot more immediate than "it will please god", like "I'll get rich" or "I'll be powerful".

ALWAYS, huh? OK, then tell me what an abortion clinic bomber gets that's more immediate than "it will please god." They don't get rich. They certainly don't get any more powerful.

I have no idea why you think religion just simply can never be a primary motivation for violence. Religion is just like any of humanity's creations - it can be a force for good or evil.

[Goblinmonger]

49. You might want

to avoid using big words like tautology.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

51. I think it might go deeper

than religion. I think the men who do abortion violence are really responding to a threat against their females. I think it is primal. They need to keep their females down and abortion frees them from their control. I think it is all subconscious and they use "faith" as an excuse. They think it is about Jesus, but it's about...p*ssy.

[trotsky]

53. Yeah, but "their" females aren't going to the clinics.

"Their" females are locked down tight with the gaggle of kids.

So you don't think religion can ever be the primary motivator for bad deeds either, eh Grannie? Always innocent?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

54. No, I think it surely can be the motivator for

murder and mayhem.

But I think sometimes it is an excuse for weasels. Mr. Abortion-Murder Man praises Jesus, but he knows down in his gut that he has rights over women, and I think that a threat to his sexual domination is more important to him than his belief that Jesus doesn't want babies to die.

Because if he were truly that faithful he would also probably give some thought to committing murder. I think he's nuts and a poseur.

I'm just beginning to wonder for the first time whether Onward Christian Soldiers is a phoney concept. Because if you take land for Jesus, you are a great, pious guy. If you take land because it is fertile and you want it, you are an imperialistic bastard. Everybody wants to see themselves as fine, upstanding folks who will go to heaven. I think they are all kidding themselves.

T-Grannie

[trotsky]

56. But like the karma man above, you're having to read minds.

Yeah, their actions can be explained in such a framework. But without actually being able to know what's going thru their (tiny little) minds, we really can't say.

And I'm not saying that religion can't be used by people with other agendas, not at all.

Just that it's not immune from being the primary motivator itself, and that people don't have to be crazy for that to happen.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

57. I'll buy everything you say

but for me, this concept that religion is a cover-up is a new one. I honestly never thought about it before.

But no, we can't read minds so we'll never know for sure. But I will say this much. I don't think GWB gives a rat's ass about Jesus Christ. And in his base heart he knows it.

T-Grannie

[trotsky]

59. I'm not so sure about Bushie.

After all, what you're saying is that no true Christian could EVER act like Bush does. I.e., Christians might do bad things from time to time, but they can never be REALLY bad. Not a fair statement to make.

Christians can be terribly wrong and yet still quite devoted to what they truly THINK is God's plan.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

60. My gut with him

is that his Christianity is politically expedient. Now, I think wingnuts like Robertson are truy committed Christians. They just are skewed.

But Bush got religion right around the time he needed the fundamentalist vote.

[Goblinmonger]

55. Grannie

that's what it's ALWAYS about with men :rofl:

Though I am shocked to hear you say it :wow:

I think you are my favorite theist on DU. My wife believes in some form of higher being, so you can't be my ALLTIME favorite.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

58. hehehe

well, we have a saying in our family, when one of the women "gets" the men to do something for her...

POP


Power of the P*ssy.

[varkam]

15. The confusion of faith and evidence, IMHO

is what seperates you from "them". "They" confuse their faith for evidence of a world-view. I've argued here and elsewhere that I think the wisest position to take is the agnostic theist or agnostic atheist position. Certainty, as you mentioned, is a big factor in not only the motivation to kill, but hatred as well (IMO).

[FM Arouet666]

28. T. Grannie, a fearsome reptile

Sorry, I am a bit Asperger about the T. Rex comparison, my bad.

Could I kill? I am human, therefore by definition, I could kill, it is in my nature. I have become very liberal with age, my years in the Marine Corps are a personal dark age, but I cannot truthfully declare that I have become an absolute pacifist, incapable of killing my fellow human. A sad reality of our species?

What is the difference between believers, one with belief prompting violence another declaring pacifism? Christians in America do not tend to blow themselves up in the local Safe-way. Why not? Education, tolerance, a more pluralistic society? I suspect that you cannot conceive of violence based on your religion for the same reason that I cannot conceive of violence based on my atheism. We both live in a society made up of many different people, views, religions, and have chosen to accept the differences, tolerance is gained through exposure. Christian intolerance pisses me off to no end, but many of my colleagues and friends are Christian. Prejudice is hard to come by when you live with contradiction.

A society divided, offering no chance for personal exchange is a society ripe for sectarian violence. Ironic that it is tolerance which allows our society to live in peace compared to those faced with violence in the name of religion. A tolerance which many fundamentalists condemn, hoping to cast the U.S. as a Christian nation.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. You know I really

need a T.Grannie logo. I shall have to work on that. Do you think they could knit with their little tiny arms? What about play poker? Guess it would be easy to hold the cards close in.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. CHECK IT OUT!

T-Grannie

[FM Arouet666]

62. Nice walker!

But you need to do some push-ups or something. ;)

[LaurenG]

29. Kill for faith, NO

Kill in self defense, perhaps. As far as religion I am to the point where I have no use for the simple explanations and interpretations that come from main stream religions, especially Christianity. Christ could not possibly have meant half of what is ascribed to him if he was really who he says he was. If I have the understanding that this world is based on the love of a creator for it's creation, how could I possibly be threatened with eternal damnation for screwing up. (and anymore the definition of screwing up is getting blurrier and easier to fall into).

IMO, Fundamentalist's of any faith have hateful beliefs, not loving beliefs. They believe in controlling others even if it means death. What part of thou shall not kill isn't clear? Yet they will die/kill (at least the spirit of others) for their beliefs because not to die/kill for the cause means one is faithless and they too will then suffer in hell for eternity.

It's an immature faith that would take the meanings of a metaphysical teacher and turn it around to harm others whether literally or on a spiritual level. It irritates me that we have suffered the fear mongering as long as we have.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. Thank you for your reply

We share a lot of beliefs. I am hoping the the fundamentalists in this country are rapidly losing ground. Just yesterday we read that Robertson's organization is in debt and gowning down fast.

What welcome news.

[Strong Atheist]

61. I am, of course, as CERTAIN as you, in the opposite direction. However,

like you I am not inclined to go around killing people. Those are two separate issues; you can be CERTAIN in a religious way without being fanatical enough to kill. MOST religious people in the (modern) (western) world are not going to go only holy killing sprees...