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Does it matter whether or not something is classified as a "religion"?

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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:15 PM
Original message
Does it matter whether or not something is classified as a "religion"?
Nikolai Vavilov was a Soviet plant geographer who explored the major agricultural production regions of the USSR and the world. (Some consider him to have been the leading plant geographer of the 20th century.)

Vavilov also revolutionized plant breeding.

Tragically, beginning in the early 1930s, Vavilov's programs suffered reduced governmental support. The Institute headed by Vavilov provided ideological competition for the totalitarian state-supported pseudo-genetic concepts of T. D. Lysenko. This ideological controversy between the Institute and the State resulted in Vavilov's arrest in August 1940. Vavilov died in Saratov prison on 26 January 1943.

Source:
http://www.science.siu.edu/plant-biology/PLB117/Nickrent.Lecs/Agriculture.html

How do you like that understatement: "suffered reduced governmental support"? It's one thing for there to be funding cuts and quite a different thing to be arrested and die in prison a few years later.

What was the nature of the controversy?

What was Vavilov thought to be guilty of if not heresy?
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Any sufficiently rigid ideaology is...
...indistinguishable from religion.

Only the names of the objects and institutions of worship are changed. The unthinking obedience and deference to authority are the same.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
:toast:
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. and sufficiently rigid ideology is...
...a sufficiently rigid ideology!

I think that's the problem right there. It can and does affect all kinds of things like governmentments and religions, but I don't think it has to affect any of them. CAlling rigid minded fndamentalism "religion" is a little like calling totalitarian regimes "government": Its true, but its not the full picture...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. DUer igil contributed a post about the concept Non Sequitur
Does it matter whether or not I actually read your posts? I think not, and I have not read this one. No doubt it is a non-sequitur, like they all are....


The Concept Non Sequitur
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 06:26 PM
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9. Deleted message
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Kipling Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Guilty of opposing Stalin.
Although the Russian state demanded obediance it never demanded belief in the supernatural (although some propoganda came close!) and it was primarily defending its own interests.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The arrest of Vavilov was secondary rather than primary?
Alternatively, did Vavilov pose a threat?

P.S. Didn't the USSR include more than Russia?
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Kipling Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. It doesn't matter if he really posed a threat - Stalin was very paranoid.
"P.S. Didn't the USSR include more than Russia?"
It was basically the Russian Empire.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. Lysenko was a loon.
He denounced genetics. There was a big wave of "soviet science" denunciations of western ideas, and genetics fell under the axe.

Instead, it would be possible to gradually grow plants in harsher conditions, have them adapt, and pass those adaptations down to their offspring. Get wheat to grow at 70, try for 68; if it goes at 68, go for 66; if at 66 ...; eventually you'd get wheat that could grow quite nicely in Sibera, and solve the USSR's food problems. Same for cows, horses, radishes, cucumbers, and everything else.

It played right into the idea of the New Soviet Man. Man wasn't bad; society was. Fix society, and watch the perfect socialist emerge. But the philosophy was looking shaky by the early-mid 30s, since kids should have been growing up perfect. One could blame society, and they did: they needed to root out the vestiges of capitalist thought. But things didn't get better under the purges, and finally they just said that mankind wasn't perfect, but quickly perfectible. Lysenko's ideas were around and could be quickly refurbished to support the idea.

The same kind of "we know better, and if we didn't discover it it must be wrong" nonsense afflicted the USSR in some medical practices, in cybernetics, and in generative linguistics. Math and physics, chess and sports, were safer. Very similar to juche.

Whenever you see a group of people saying they know better than you how you should run your life and so they should have power--esp. not by election, but by coup or revolution, whether on the right or the left--grab a weapon and don't turn your back.
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. Vavilov was guilty of believing in genetics
The Soviets believed that if they could force society to change to fit their mold, and maintain that change for several generations, then that change would become a permanant part of their populus. In other words, they believed that there was no inherent "human nature" other than what they could shape.

The Soviets supported any science which fit into this theory, and opposed any science which did not.

The Soviet biologist Lysenko developed theories that traits he induced into one generation of plants would be passed along into later generations of plants. This is similar to the idea that if you crop your dog's ears, eventually you will get puppies born with cropped ears. This theory fit directly into the socialist ideology, and became the official state science for nearly 30 years.

Vavilov, meanwhile, was an early researcher in genetics. The genetic scientists believed that traits were passed from generation to generation through genes, which could be selected for through careful breeding, but could not be altered by forcing traits onto a population. This "theory" was seen as being obstructive to the progress of Soviet science and society.

From the mid 1930's to the early 1940's, Soviet scientists who pushed this "genetic" agenda were either executed or sent to labor camps. Lysenko's theories remained dominant in Soviet science well into the 1960's.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Guilty in secular law or guilty of sin in religious law?
The Soviets believed that if they could force society to change to fit their mold, and maintain that change for several generations, then that change would become a permanant part of their populus. In other words, they believed that there was no inherent "human nature" other than what they could shape.

Did the decision-makers in the government of the USSR believe that human sacrifice itself had some cosmic impact through supernatural channels?

Did the decision-makers in the government of the USSR have the attitude of hunters who wanted to plan their next meal? Were they not angry?

If it had been possible to make realistic-looking films of geneticists being executed without actually killing anyone, then would the government of the USSR have done that and used the films to influence society?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 04:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. I had a couple of posts on this subject recently
First, a lecture by Philip Pullman, on "theocratic absolutism" - which he applies to the Soviet Union as well as theistic regimes:

* There is a holy book, a scripture whose word is inerrant and may not be doubted, which has such absolute authority that it trumps every other. Everything, even the discoveries of science, has to be judged against what the scripture says, and if there is a contradiction, the scripture wins. This scripture might be the Bible, it might be the Koran, it might be the works of Karl Marx.
* There are doctors of the church, who interpret the holy book and pronounce on its meaning: it might be St Augustine, it might be the Ayatollahs, it might be Lenin.
* There is a priesthood with special powers and privileges, which can confer blessings on the laity, or withdraw them. Entry into the priesthood is an honour; it`s not for everyone; and the authority of the priesthood tends to concentrate in the hands of elderly men: as it might be, the Vatican, or the politburo in the Kremlin.
* There is close control of the news media, and ferocious censorship of books. It was the Catholic Church of the Counter-Reformation that invented the word propaganda, and the Soviet Union that took it up with enthusiasm and incorporated it into their term agitprop.

And there are many more characteristics of this sort of system, which we can find parallels for in both religious and atheist forms of totalitarianism:

* There is the concept of heresy and its punishment.
* There is the concept of apostasy.
* There is an Inquisition with the powers of a secret police force, or a secret police force with the powers of an Inquisition.
* There is a complex procedural apparatus of betrayal, denunciation, confession, trial and execution.
* There is a teleological view of history, according to which human society is moving inexorably towards a millennial fulfilment in a golden age.
* There is a fear and hatred of external unbelievers.
* There is a fear and hatred of internal demons and witches.
* There is the notion of pilgrimage to sacred places and holy relics - the Turin Shroud, Red Square, the birthplace of Chairman Mao.

And so on, ad nauseam. In fact, as far as the way they behaved in practice is concerned, there are remarkable similarities between the Spain of Philip II, the Iran of Ayatollah Khomeini, and the Soviet Union under Stalin. We might see some parallels with the United States in the time of McCarthy. We might even see some resemblances to the present time.

http://www.philip-pullman.com/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=113

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=16189&mesg_id=16189


and secondly, the relevance of Stalin and Lysenko to what Bush has been trying to do to science in the USA:


In any case, Michurin's views on evolution found favor with the party leadership in the Soviet Union. When the rest of the scientific world were pursuing the ideas of Mendel and developing the new science of genetics, Russia led the way in the effort to prevent the new science from being developed in the Soviet Union. Thus, while the rest of the scientific world could not conceive of understanding evolution without genetics, the Soviet Union used its political power to make sure that none of their scientists would advocate a genetic role in evolution.

It was due to Lysenko's efforts that many real scientists, those who were geneticists or who rejected Lamarckism in favor of natural selection, were sent to the gulags or simply disappeared from the USSR. Lysenko rose to dominance at a 1948 conference in Russia where he delivered a passionate address denouncing Mendelian thought as "reactionary and decadent" and declared such thinkers to be "enemies of the Soviet people" (Gardner 1957). He also announced that his speech had been approved by the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Scientists either groveled, writing public letters confessing the errors of their way and the righteousness of the wisdom of the Party, or they were dismissed. Some were sent to labor camps. Some were never heard from again.

Under Lysenko's guidance, science was guided not by the most likely theories, backed by appropriately controlled experiments, but by the desired ideology. Science was practiced in the service of the State, or more precisely, in the service of ideology. The results were predictable: the steady deterioration of Soviet biology. Lysenko's methods were not condemned by the Soviet scientific community until 1965, more than a decade after Stalin's death.

http://skepdic.com/lysenko.html


There are enough parallels between Bush and Stalin to fill books - it's a better analogy than certain other WW2 dictators, IMHO. They have both taken an ideology, used it in ways that many 'true believers' think awful, removed those who question them from power, have taken advantage of an attack to paint their country as the complete victim, despite earlier military collaboration with their attacker, and themselves as the glorious war leader (but whose own competance looks distinctly dodgy), and they have both shown a complete lack of sympathy to the suffering of their own people - whether in Ukraine or New Orleans.

And now we see how much Bush demands that science support his views, not objective research.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=692521&mesg_id=693804
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Should the similarities surprise us?
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 11:15 AM by Boojatta
And so on, ad nauseam. In fact, as far as the way they behaved in practice is concerned, there are remarkable similarities between the Spain of Philip II, the Iran of Ayatollah Khomeini, and the Soviet Union under Stalin.


If Intelligent Design advocates sincerely believed that the designer is some remote but material entity, then would they be significantly different from Intelligent Design advocates who say nothing about the identity of the designer but secretly believe that it is a supernatural being?
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. There was a thread awhile back that got into this sort of thing...
"What is religion? ..and why should it be separate from the state?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3572866&mesg_id=3572866


The gist of it is that how ones lives one's life - is one's "religion" and the beliefs and practices of groups of people who share a country - could also be called a "religion" - in our case codified in laws and in the constitution, etc.
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