Easter Challenge For Christians - Read Bible and Tell Us What Happened

[NAO]

Leave No Stone Unturned
An Easter Challenge For Christians
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/stone.php

I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.

Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Corinthians 15:14-15)

The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened.

Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?

Read more, with some pointers and some attempts at an answer here:
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/stone.php

[Canuckistanian]

1. ..

:popcorn:

[BrklynLiberal]

2. Rashomon? Telephone? Mythology? The original Urban Legend?

[undergroundpanther]

3. Jesus

Jesus's death was a object lesson about NOT giving in to the fantasy of the struggles motivated by survival and domination. Jesus,realizing he could not play cat and mouse with the roman guards forever had Judas "betray him" so he could get out of this horrible world and his horrible predicament as a wanted criminal, in a world made and ruled by an evil blind mad"god". Jesus saw people tortured all the time it was sport for romans. People get like sociopaths when they are encouraged to be extreme hedonistic assholes to people not like they are. So after jesus left,Judas was murdered by the other dumb ass obedient to the god of this world apostles who didn't understand why jesus decided he had had enough of this corrupted life and left it.So they killed judas for killing their"master".

To me The early christians were Gnostic's. The Orthodoxy was threatened by them because the state was at a loss they had no control over Gnostic's,because Gnostic's were FREE..how can a state threaten people who are so apathetic twords their own survival and getting the perks and avoiding the pain that carrots and sticks fail to motivate them? How can the state coerce people who don't care about this world anymore? Even CIA torture manuals to this day can't do ANYTHING to torture someone who is apathetic about this life,and realizes the flesh will die,and does not care anymore. The Gnostic's were VERY anti authoritarian, almost like hippies,rebellious explorers of consciousness, mystics relentless in their pursuits of philosophic and inner wisdom.

All types of anarchists still threaten the control and hegemony of states and all other top down social structures rule people with . THe Gnostics were Anarchists. They respected women equal to men,children were to be respected,and all aliens who had the spark were equal to gnostics. Jesus urged his apostles to give up their habitual ways,to using tantra and other techiques to loosen fetters and defy their flesh,to defy the archons in their many forms,to give up cherished lives,their worldly ambitions for the things in this world knowing this world is too conflicted and distorted to ever become a lasting or certain utopia for the masses.Resources on this earth will be limited and often hoarded by the popular and corrupted to maintain their own hegemony.

And jesus spoke the truth about this fact of existence,realizing all flesh dies,empires rise and fall, and he confronted head on the horrible fear that takes over people's hearts who have invested so much of themselves in their temporary lives when death and powerless comes to them.. The Gnostic's imagined they carried a sacred spark inside, something mysterious that overcame this world and it's threats and temptations,something untainted by this world,a spiritual knowledge and apathy that enabled them to see something wonderful,even if it was their imagination,that is beyond this mad,sad futile world of suffering and fleeting joys ,all the fucking sick games and assholes..

I am a gnostic of a more egyptian bent Sophia Maat Sekhmet is the flavor of my Star..,to me Jesus was a mythic icon,or maybe some person I don't know, I don't care because to me a cult of personality is NOT the point. But the central lesson of Gnosis is Jesus was a person who had the guts and honesty to admit he had enough,of this world..Tired of the pain and confusion..A person rendered apart by love and existential truths,who Like Neo in the matrix jesus cared because he CHOSE to,even though the world was lost,Jesus and the gnostics were able to look at the banality of evil as it really is,including the dumb dying flesh that limits us, all the evils of power the crazy clinging and games people play, and the huge unresolvable KNOT of stupid struggle it all is..

Jesus decided to offer limited people who were weary if life a way out that he knew very few will decide is true..A decision and perception of this world he knew very few could ever make sense of . Jesus told it like it is in this evil place of bondage,he heard the world groaning for release.Jesus told his tale knowing damn well most people are in love with this world, want to be obedient servants to their gods, want to be ruled by kings, because they have not been hurt enough by this world to hate it,and throw it all away,stop valuing survival,power,comforts all that existence here is,the good and the bads..and throw up the middle finger to Satan and just leave this hellhole behind and risk it all on a dream of something better something unspeakable...Jesus knew most people would not get it. He knew what authorities and devotees would do to distort and censor his message that on the surface looks suicidal.

Gnosis is a solution,only if you throw away the whole world can you see the kingdom and see your star!

His message is not about saving the world at all.Evangelism is silly, it's not about resurrected zombie bodies,or a floating cube new Jerusalem.Jesus knew the creator of this world was not where he was from the Barbelo,He knew his flesh was from this world, for this world is of Satan,Jesus was a DUALIST..Dualism is how people develop ethics and discernment of right and wrong.. This is why Jesus turned down the Devil's offer to rule this world in the Desert.He would not sell out his spark to satan the only part of him this world could not steal and break...Jesus said he was not of this world,and his kingdom wasn't either.Modern Christians don't GET it..

I have determined by my experiences am not of this world.I am alienated because my soul is alien to this world. I can't accept or ignore the evil here...This world and my life has beaten any love of this world out of my heart.I hate this world,hate how the world manipulates and hurts me by the flesh,I hate the mindless sadistic cruelty of nature evolution and power, the pain the banality of suffering and life.I will help ease others pain and hope I can find other alienated sparks to connect to while I am imprisoned here,But As far as I am concerned Death is my first Gnosis of true liberation.Resurrection for me will be in spirit, my star,in my true home in the great mysterIous unseen unNameable (Note the word god was not mentioned as my source)where the spark within me came from.


This Friday I will remember there is hope,beyond this place and this world and the ways of this world.The Veil was torn because Jesus was the first to tell it like it is.


The Stranger
The Stranger Released: 1977

Well we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and show ourselves
When everyone has gone
Some are satin some are steel
Some are silk and some are leather
They're the faces of the stranger

But we love to try them on
Well, we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger

Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?
Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it, why can't someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself

Once I used to believe
I was such a great romancer
Then I came home to a woman
That I could not recognize
When I pressed her for a reason
She refused to even answer
It was then I felt the stranger
Kick me right between the eyes

Well, we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?


Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it why can't someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself

You may never understand
How the stranger is inspired
But he isn't always evil
And he isn't always wrong
Though you drown in good intentions
You will never quench the fire
You'll give in to your desire
When the stranger comes along.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

8. Heyhey....Billy Joel...

Niiiiice!

;)

[Hardrada]

4. Interesting article

Sensible to put it all together that way. I was still sort of a vaguely spiritual person before the Bush Era but the sheer amount of religiousity has made me very much a non-theist.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. And that is their legacy.

How ironic.

[LearnedHand]

16. (Your dinosaur graphic totally cracks me up) n/t

[pnwmom]

5. The Bible isn't a history text, and it's not a science text.

The biblical accounts of the resurrection are from different people's point of view and conflict with each other. They can't be resolved the way you suggest.

Religion is about paradox and mystery, and the truth that lies between the lines and behind the obvious. Your "challenge" is really beside the point, at least for the vast majority of Christians on these boards, who are not fundamentalists and do not take the Bible literally.

Why do so many atheists seem to want to stuff all Christians into a fundamentalist box?

[papau]

6. Posted before on DU -refuted on DU - and posted again - boring- n/t

n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

7. Posted before. Sparked a flame war before.

Pass the popcorn, please.

:popcorn:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Oh, I don't know

I think we're feeling kind of mellow today. At least I am. No flames from me. I love everybody today.

[Igel]

11. I've seen enough harmonizations of the basic timeline

to not quibble over it. Many quibbles rely on interpretations that are more specific than the original text allows, frequently build on translations or punctuation. Every time I've quibbled with a detail I've eventually been able to fit it in, given the right assumptions. And since the goal isn't to falsify, but to produce a reasonable account that handles the details, fitting the assumptions to the text (a fairly common technique used daily by most language users) seems reasonable.

There's one quibble, of a fairly serious theological nature, that still sticks in my craw, and it goes to the issue one name given to Jesus: passover lamb.

He was having a seder after the passover lambs were killed. He died 24 hours after the passover lambs.

I've seen lots of linguistic and legalistic wrangling, but all lead to an irreducible paradox or require altering definitions mid-argument.

Still, there's the argument that it was a metaphor, and even if the metaphor wasn't dead-on accurate it's ok.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. If he died during Passover

wouldn't that then qualify as the metaphor "Passover Lamb"?

[Igel]

14. That's the kludge I fall back on, but it's not very satisfying.

The paschal lamb was killed right at the end of the day before passover and the beginning of passover. Not an instaneous process, and the rabbinic rules for determining the second that a day ends just weren't in place yet. The instructions were very precise, and for one requiring that 'all righteousness be fulfilled' having it off has produced a bit of a quandary. One that mere collocation of bits of gospel texts wouldn't point out (you'd have to compare the gospel chunks with the lamb instructions in Exodus).

Killing a passover lamb roughly 24 hours late seems a bit off, hence the concern from the occasional commentator and a way to justify it--either propose that Jesus kept Passover 24 hours early, or it wasn't really the passover, or ... In the Exodus narrative it would have gotten your kid killed.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. I know them all by memory

and will hear most of them this weekend.

The discrepencies don't bother me. Different times, different people. Kind of like playing telephone I guess. I'm not too much into the details.

[davidinalameda]

15. thank you!

since I've started attending church on regular basis, I've come to the conclusion that the details don't matter one bit


people so focused on the details usually miss the message of the stories in the bible