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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:10 PM
Original message
Energy Crisis
I understand that language is a flexible thing. The same word can mean different things in different contexts. Take the word "energy" (definition from dictionary.com):

en·er·gy n. pl. en·er·gies

 1. The capacity for work or vigorous activity; vigor; power. See Synonyms at strength.
 2. a. Exertion of vigor or power: a project requiring a great deal of time and energy.
     b. Vitality and intensity of expression: a speech delivered with energy and emotion.
 3. a. Usable heat or power: Each year Americans consume a high percentage of the world's energy.
     b. A source of usable power, such as petroleum or coal.
 4. Physics. The capacity of a physical system to do work.

I'm fine with any of these usages, and other useful metaphorical or poetic extrapolations as well. What bugs me is this: When people use meanings 1-3, or other related meanings, yet talk as if the same physical laws which apply only to meaning 4 apply to any usage of the word "energy" they choose to use.

If you're talking about not having the "energy" (as in motivation) to answer an e-mail or to do the laundry, that's not a concept of energy to which strict laws of conservation pertain. If you're talking about "spiritual energy", you're not talking about something within the proper realm of thermodynamics -- you may not even talking about anything more real than a poetic interpretation of certain aspects of human psychology, or even more real, as far as established science is concerned, than wishful thinking.

I can't count the times that I've listened to someone cheerily invoke conservation of energy to explain why we shouldn't have any worries about there being an afterlife because, after all, "we are energy", and energy is conserved, right? :eyes:

If you're going to invoke physical law, then you have to use the definitions of physics and the principles of science. If you want to imagine the human mind or "soul" as some sort of "energy" which obeys conservation principles, then I'm afraid I must inform you that (A) there's not the slightest evidence coming from scientific research to back up such a simplistic view of the human mind, and (B) even if the mind could be characterized as a kind of "energy", the Second Law of Thermodynamics would spell bad news for any energy-interpretation-based hopes for eternal self preservation anyway.

What is a human mind if we restrict ourselves to known science? I'd describe the human mind as a biochemical process occurring within the human brain. There's certainly energy involved in this process -- chemical energy is consumed, waste heat is generated, etc. -- but to say that a process consumes and that it emits energy is not the same as saying that this process is energy.

Does the fact that computers use electrical energy, and that the ordered states of magnetic media and other media represent small amounts of potential energy, make it make any sense to call computer software a "form of energy"? If you pulverize a computer with a sledge hammer, or zap it hard with a powerful alternating magnetic field, nothing happens which violates conservation of energy. However, does the principle of conservation of energy give you much hope of recovering your personal data after such destructive action? No, not at all.

What makes you uniquely you, from a scientific standpoint, is the particular patterns in which the biochemical energy of your brain flows, the physical ways connections between neurons have grown and arranged themselves in response to stimuli, and other means by which memories might be physically encoded and preserved.

Some fluctuating level of energy is passing through your brain and body all of the time, and that energy is conserved. Whatever energy you take in is either released in another form or held for a time as potential energy, and when you die all of that energy is released or stays locked up in the chemical bonds of your remains. But the other thing that happens when you die is that the all-important patterns that constitute your mind, your unique identity, break down. Cells die. Neural connections degenerate. Chemical compounds break down. The ongoing dance of nerve impulses, out of which consciousness arises as an amazing emergent phenomena, begins to falter, and soon ceases completely.

The fact that the energy once in your body survives, mostly as broadly scattered waste heat, isn't much of a consolation if you're hoping for eternal self-preservation. If you want to put "faith" in some sort of "spiritual energy" which is preserved and lives on, knock yourself out, but please... don't pretend that just because you toss in the word "energy" that the object of your faith is backed by science.

"Spiritual energy", "psychic energy", "healing energy" -- none of these are at all found in or related to anything from modern physics. If I say that, and then you start thinking, "modern physics doesn't know everything", or, "there are some things which are beyond science", fine... as long as you don't pretend that a little loose word association with science gives you any of the luster of proven science, and as long as you understand that the world of the unknown doesn't automatically include all of your favorite pets until someone else proves you wrong.

Take "healing energy". What the hell is that supposed to be? Health is every bit as complicated as anatomy, cellular biology, and biochemistry. There's no way all health issues, or even most, could ever boil down to something as simplistic as a flow of "qi" or a balance of "positive and negative 'energy'". Just try to imagine a "healing energy" for cars, some type of energy that could somehow fix dents, make the dirt in clogged fuel filters suddenly vanish, adjust timing belts, and pump air into tires, all simply by suffusing cars with this special "energy".

The concept makes no sense. We know that such complex and varied problems require specific directed solutions and specific resources all directly applied to specific places. Nothing rightly called "energy" could handle all of that -- yes, energy is needed to effect such repairs, but energy alone of any type is far from enough.

Isn't the burden of proof on someone who wants to assert that the complex biological machine that is the human body is easier to repair, not harder, than the relatively vastly more simplistic machine that is an automobile? One could rightly point out that, unlike a car, a human body has built-in mechanisms for self-repair and defense against disease, but the prevalence of human ailments, not to mention the inevitability of eventual death, points to the fact that these built-in mechanisms are far from perfect or adequate for all challenges. There is no evidence, nor even good reason to suppose, that a few simple "imbalances" of some type of "energy" are all that ever stand between the body's built in healing mechanisms and functional perfection.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. wow.
and you put alot of energy into posting this, kinda sorry this is my only reply.

dp
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bluesbassman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. True observations K4K.
But let me pose this for your consideration; Science seeks to provide explanations or answers to questions, in essence to prove or to disprove. But in respect to spirituality, while science has yet to prove the existence of spiritual existence, it has also yet to disprove it. Therefore does it not yet remain a "theory" that should be further studied?
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. True - but I think that's largely because....
Edited on Tue May-02-06 07:58 AM by varkam
the realm of souls or spirits or theology or call-it-what-you-will is completely beyond the scope of scientific investigation. In other words, claims that have premises garnering support from somewhere other than the physical universe are impossible to either a) prove or b) disprove insofar as science is concerned. There are no instruments that we can use to determine the existence of souls, nor are there tests we can run. There are some interesting studies that can be devised (such as the recent study on prayer), but even if there were a hundred different studies showing prayer has no effect, it still wouldn't necessarily disprove anything.

on edit: btw, Welcome to DU! :toast:
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. "it has also yet to disprove it"
What's funny is that I had a paragraph addressing what you're saying here, but deleted it because it didn't fit in, and figured someone would soon enough given me reason to restate what I'd deleted. :)

"You can't prove me wrong" is pretty weak ground to be standing on. There are lots and lots of things that can't be absolutely proven wrong. If I claim there's a copy of Alice in Wonderland buried somewhere inside the Moon, you can't prove I'm wrong, but so what? Does that mean my Alice in Wonderland "theory" (a poor use of the word "theory", but terribly common) stands tall and proud, especially if I decide to call it "faith" rather than "science", until the day someone tears apart the Moon and carefully sifts through the debris? Further, even if someone did conduct such a thorough search, I can always say "There was a copy of Alice in Wonderland inside the Moon, but it was only meant to be found by those who had faith. Your faithless assault made it disappear."

At any rate, the point of my original post isn't to prove that there's no such thing as "spiritual existence". The point is to make an objection to the frequent attempts I see to dress up such ideas in scientific-sounding terminology, and people acting as if having done so there ideas suddenly have some sort of scientific merit.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. For medical care, "you can't prove me wrong" is dangerous.
If you want to try to heal your cancer with crystals because it sounds like it SHOULD work, foregoing other options, well, yeah, it's a bad bet. But most of teh "energy" stuff is largely harmless. Take chiropracty----even if you don't buy the essential life force through alignment stuff, most people feel better after a good backcracking. I've heard good things about chinese "tweening", a form of massage. Nobody knows if acupuncture works, but I'm impressed by the fact it doesn't hurt.

But most of the stuff taken on faith doesn't involve foregoing medical care, or hopefully, spending too much money.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. ...
Edited on Tue May-02-06 06:51 AM by Random_Australian
"I can't count the times that I've listened to someone cheerily invoke conservation of energy to explain why we shouldn't have any worries about there being an afterlife because, after all, "we are energy", and energy is conserved, right?"

You mean outside of DU? Atheists? What does this viewpoint support?

As for the rest, spot on. With Quantum Physics, there are no more inexplicable phenomena, (where either Quantum theory or General Relativity applies, that is).

If these energies can't do anything after all, ie they cannot be observed, then they exist as much as the aether, as in not at all. (The only reason God can get around this is such a bieng would have the ability to choose).
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. You're wondering what I'm reacting to?
You mean outside of DU? Atheists? What does this viewpoint support?

I've heard this kind of talk from mostly new-agey people both on and off DU, but occasionally from Christians as well (the two types aren't always mutually exclusive). The viewpoint seems to be "Hey, we're not just making stuff up. This is good science!"

I'm not reacting to any specific event or post, by the way. This is just an issue that's been kicking around in my head for a while, a cumulative reaction to a lot of things.

With Quantum Physics, there are no more inexplicable phenomena, (where either Quantum theory or General Relativity applies, that is).

I don't know if I'd go that far -- there's still plenty we can't explain. My objection is that so many people seem to think they can toss in a few scientific-sounding words like "energy", and all of a sudden their wishful-thinking make believe (based on a solid "you can't prove I'm wrong" foundation) should be treated like a respectable "theory" to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I need to point this out:
inexplicable means not only 'we cannot currently explain it' but ALSO 'it is in violation of the current accepted theory'.

This is also why ID is a load of crap.

What I was saying, is there is no need to doubt our current theories. When we get the UFT that will be it.There is not actually any room for 'spiritual energy' or any of that lot.

New age crap. Our psychology lecturer (in my uni, psychology is strictly scientific) was talking about scientific method and how the new age stuff has no effect at all, and ate 80 sleeping pills in front of us. (Homeopathic)
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
5. Holy Moly
you wrote this before breakfast? I bow down to you! Great post.

As my physical energy wanes, I find my mental energy is increasing. Which has nothing to do with what you are talking about, but I thought I'd throw that in.

I'm okay with the concept that matter is not created or destroyed. (I have that right, don't I?) So even if I am a speck of dust on a sparrow's claw then I'm still here. I won't KNOW I'm here. And that's good, because I wouldn't probably like being a speck of dust. But the fact that we are a closed system means that while I'm in this form today, I'll be in another form some other day. I like that.

I'm not sure I'd like the concept of buzzing around as eternal energy. I mean I believe in Rest in Peace. If I am not going to get golden streets and many mansions, I want to rest in peace. I'm not sure I get a vote, however.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Nicely stated.
Just as an adjunct, I have an opinion/philosophical statement to make.

Science starts from questions and seeks answers. In doing so, it is very seldom certain, as history shows that all scientific answers are subject to revision upon analysis of subsequent data.

Religions start from answers and ask questions, mostly rhetorical. Religions tend to be certain of their beliefs, and as such, often confuse what they see as scientific certainty-which seldom exists, anyway-as similar to their dogmatic beliefs. Most religions, in my experience, exhibit precious little real spirituality.

The true value of spirituality is that it starts in questions and remains in them. It is when religions start to provide 'answers' that they get into trouble by declaring anyone who disagrees with their pet answer as heretical or a 'sinner.' That leads to punishment at worst, and at least ostracism. True spirtituality, IMO, brings people together for shared experience, and doesn't drive them apart in some form of primitive tribalism.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. The "healing energy" nonsense is just to fool dumb people...
...by sounding scientific
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