Happy Reason Day!!

[klook]

Today is the National Day of Reason--the day when we recognize that it's OK to think about problems instead of just praying about them; to ask forgiveness of the humans we've offended or screwed over rather than just asking a deity; and to live as though this is the only life we've got.

I like Fran Lebowitz's take on religion and politics:

...let us admit that where there is less religion there is more progress. And that this has been true not only throughout the entire history of the whole world but even in the United States of America. And let us understand that if you do not have a greater belief in democracy than you do in your religion you will eventually have less democracy. And that you may even lose your religion, because, as it turns out, the only people who are really tolerant of other people's religions are people who are really not that religious.

So let us also remember that things can be wrong without being important. And that while it is true that there really shouldn't be a crèche in the town square, it is equally true that it doesn't really matter. And that if you think it is wrong to have a crèche in the town square, and you were wondering what would make it worse, then by all means insist that a menorah be installed alongside it.

For let us examine the state of the union since it has fallen into the hands of the sort of politician given to triumphantly, and with the air of someone coining an epigram, the making of such statements as "The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion." When as a matter of fact, and as a matter of law, the Constitution guarantees both, but in reverse order: freedom from religion being of first importance to those whose interest was the establishment of a republic rather than a constituency.

--More: http://www.vanityfair.com/commentary/content/articles/041206roco03

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. I disagree that more religion means less progress

She provides no examples. I immediately think of any number of regimes that banned religion and don't exist anymore and left a huge mess to clean up.

Religion, in and of itself, is not the greatest impediment to progress. It can hinder; it can help. It gave us literacy, hospitals. It has given us the Inquisition and the witch trials.

In addition, prayer can be a type of thinking. I know when I pray I often work things through all on my own. Reason is a great thing, but suggesting that it is the opposite of prayer is polarizing. There is room for both in the world, in my opinion.

This article is, to me, another simplistic broad brushing of a complex situation.

Now have at it!

[Lindacooks]

2. How did religion give us literacy and hospitals?

Organized religion has been against science and scientific advances from the beginning. From Galileo to Copernicus to current stem cell research, those in the pulpit have hindered and even stopped scientific inquiry, all because it threatens their tiny little view of the world. Just think of where we'd be if religion and the church hadn't interfered with scientific progress and inquiry.

As a corollary, mathematics as a science is much more advanced than biology or chemistry or medicine, mainly because religious people couldn't understand it and therefore couldn't condemn it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. Here's a few links

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195055233/002-6972982-5552008?v=glance&n=283155

http://wwwa.britannica.com/eb/article-35526

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy



It hasn't all been Inquisition and demon killing.

T-Grannie

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. My apologies

because when you open the second link it takes you to a "free trial." When I opened it first it was the whole article. I'm not quite sure how one gets back to that.

[charlie]

10. Use the rest of the Internets

There's usually someone who isn't deterred by copyright law:

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/history/hospital_history.html

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Thanks!

[Lindacooks]

12. But religion has always opposed science that made hospitals

possible in the first place! That's my point - mathematics is so advanced because most people just don't understand it and their faith isn't threatened by it. Whereas just about every development in medicine and biological science is threatening to fundies, especially.

Just look at the furor over stem cell research and the vaccine to prevent cervical cancer. All I see is organized religion bashing those advances. You'll never convince me otherwise. Organized religion has caused more harm than any other organization on the face of the earth.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

4. One more link from the infamous wikipedia

but I thought it was well-written.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_relationship_between_religion_and_science

T-Grannie

[BurtWorm]

8. Religion clearly had an effect on literacy.

Especially text-centered religion.

Ironically, the spread of literacy may also be religion's death knell.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. It might be the death knoll of religion

in its present form, and of the stranglehold it has on some of its "victims." And yes, as a Christian, I do believe there are victims of religion. Well, victims of people who used religion as a tool.

[varkam]

5. I don't think religion..

like others said is the necessary and sufficient condition for a lack of progress. For all the nasty stuff religion has caused, it's also done good things (like those things that TG) mentioned. Many of the religious ideals are undoubtedly noble (such as giving to the homeless), but a lot of that tends to go out the window when it clashes with the human psyche.

What I do think is an impediment to progress is an unwillingness to think and become educated. This is where, in my opinion, religion becomes a problem. It would also explain why in 'atheist' regimes there was no progress either - they didn't exactly place a premium on knowledge. Neither does religion - in general. The purpose of the faithful is not to question God. In fact, I've been told (I live in the south, so that might explain this) that the fewer questions you ask, the better. I take it that creates a mindset hostile to investigation. Hostile to knowledge.

So no, religion isn't the only issue with respect to progress, or the lack thereof - but it is an issue.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. Excellent points

Remember in China how they went after the teachers and glorified the farm workers? Reason was not a priority then, for certain.