"In God We Trust"

[Proud_Democratt]

Not until 1865 did the the religious motto appear on the first public issue coin (a bronze two-cent piece). Later in 1865, an Act to authorize the Coinage of Three-cent pieces, containing the motto, got passed. The Act of 1865 gave the authority to place "IN GOD WE TRUST" on coins.

In 1866 politicians put the motto on $5, $10, and $20 gold pieces, silver quarters, halves, dollars, and on the shield nickel, new in that year. They dropped it from the nickels, from the 1883 Liberty Head, until sculptor Felix Schlag placed it on the Jefferson nickel of 1938.

In 1908 Congress ignored the concept of state/church separation and considered a bill to make the use of the motto "IN GOD WE TRUST" a requirement of law.

The consideration served, of course, as more of a political polemic than a statement of fact. Congress had not specifically approved the motto until after the Civil war and only some coins had the motto imprinted on them. But on March 8, 1908, they passed the bill and made it a law.

On March 22, 1956, during the Christian anti-communist fever of McCarthyism, Congress passed a bill establishing "IN GOD WE TRUST" as a national motto.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/facts.htm

[baldguy]

1. .

[Kutjara]

3. There's a story from WWI...

...about how the German soldiers in the trenches would put up signs with 'Gott Mit Uns' on them. The British Tommies got so fed up with these claims of spiritual superiority that they put up signs saying, 'We got mittens, too.'

[Kutjara]

2. A very interesting piece of history. Thanks!

The cynic in me takes a special delight in discovering that even the most apparently high-minded initiatives often stem from fear and self-interest. Guess all those Congressmen back in '56 wanted to show Jow what fine, upstanding, God-fearing Americans they were.

I wonder if I can request the Treasury to provide me with currency that's free of the motto, on the grounds that it offends my (non)religious beliefs? Somehow, I doubt it.

[izzie]

5. I would have to go back and look at a history book but

maybe that was when the Know nothing got to be a pretty big party. But what do I know, I was in school before they put 'under God' in the pledge.

[beam me up scottie]

30. I doubt the treasury would even consider it-but I have another suggestion:

make your own:



:evilgrin:

You can get the stamp at evolvefish.com

[ChairmanAgnostic]

4. nice one, Proud.

Reminds me that religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
And that as an opiate of the masses, it can serve the purposes of those who wish to fight wars for private reasons, while promoting religion, safety and the (baseless) fear of future attacks as the rationale for those wars.

In god we trust? When Boyton is comparing penis lengths of his god and allah?

[manic expression]

26. That's ridiculous

"religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

I really don't think you can be serious when you say that. If you are, that is pathetic and petty and disgusting.

In the interest of clarification, are you saying that all those who belong to a religion are scoundrels? OR, are you saying that all those who USE religion for wrong are scoundrels?

Spare me the "opiate" speech, look at my avatar. The point is that religion can control people, but it is no different than any other motivating factor. Just like art (propaganda), just like science (social darwinism, eugenics), religion can be used to blind people into committing injustice.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. OK. I am pathetic, petty, and disgusting. and I was being serious.

Art is art - an act of creation.
science, along side of art, is one of the finest expressions of humanity available on our little water-covered rock.
Discovery, the search for the unknown, the effort of learning, the seeking new vistas and new - - EVERYTHING - that is humanity's best aspect.

Religion - a sad, sick, and destructive remnant of ignorance, foolishness and stupidity.

But, I can always recognize that I am wrong. I prey to god that I am not.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

(THAT was sarcasm)

[manic expression]

29. No

that describes your opinion. I'm not judging you (perhaps you could extend the courtesy to others).

Yes, art and science are both beautiful and amazing. You should note that I didn't refute that position. The fact is that art can be used for wrongdoing. I used the example of propaganda, which IS art. Art, which is as you said, among the greatest expressions known to man, CAN be used for the most terrible of intentions. Science has also been twisted to this aim. 80,000 people in the US were forcefully sterilized because it was "science" (eugenics); science allowed the liquidation of two entire cities. It is not the art itself (an art, as in fine arts and science), but how it is used. That is the point.

Religion is no different. It is sublime in so many ways. However, it can be used for wrongdoing, just like other things which are equally devoid of fault. Religion is, among other things, the search for truth which transcends the immediate world. Not only this, but it serves as a true connection between all people of all cultures. It is (or can be) a great thing of wisdom, knowledge and more. Again, it can be used for injustice, but many other things can as well.

Oh, and I was just wondering: Have you ever read the Upanishads? The Tao Te Ching? Any Buddhist writings (as in the Dhammapada)? The Gita? Have you ever witnessed a Native American ritual? Have you? I doubt you even know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, you better start reading, because that is true ignorance.

[Quantess]

33. I agree with both of you. I see you had a misunderstanding.

manic expression, I think antifaschists was saying that religion is too often used as an excuse for bad behavior...?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

35. precisely, in a more subtle way.

Religion all too often represents bad behavior, too, though.

[manic expression]

38. Close

Religion all too often is used for bad behavior. Very key difference.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

40. can we agree to disagree? as much as I'd like to, I doubt that I can

convince of the error of your ways. I suspect you might hold the mirror image?

Cheers, and peace!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

34. never forget that eugenics, as practiced in the US

was christian based. Tenneessee, North Carolina, South Carolina and other baptist strongholds used bible quotations to support theirr actions. As always, when facing the descrutcive forces of religion, those who ail, who are less fortunate, and who do not fit in to their little putrid view of "christian society" had no rights worth worrying about.

As to your last paragraph, yes, yes, yes, yes. and yes. And I do know what the heck you are talking about. My library is filled with various texts exploring and studying sects, creeds, beliefs and religions. One has to know one's enemy in order to be in a position to defend from its worst excesses. Religion is my enemy. Religion is your enemy, you just have not had the opportunity to recognize it for the destructive, evil, mind-bending force that it is in any shape or format.
I feel sorry for you. Study some more, and perhaps you might see what I mean. I can recommend some great titles for you if you wish.
By the way, by describing religion in all its forms as I do, I am not being discourteous to others. I merely feel sorry that their minds have been afflicted.

[manic expression]

37. That's true

and RW fundamental lunatics top my list of people I can't stand. However, it doesn't negate the FACT that science was manipulated to justify eugenics (if you've seen the movie about the Tuskegee Airmen, they used "scientific research" to try to keep blacks from becoming pilots. Coincidentally, the Tuskegee experiments, done for and by "science", were some of the most disgusting things in America's history; if you want to know a real enemy, read up on that).

No. I asked if you've READ them. Reading "various texts exploring and studying" them does not count.

Back to my original point, your comments are beyond ridiculous. Religion is not an enemy by any stretch of the imagination. Religion CAN become a tool for wrongdoing, but again, so can art and science (and other great things). Religion is not your enemy, it is not my enemy, only the delusional would assert as much. Your misguided hatred and patently laughable beliefs are the kind of forces you supposedly oppose (as in destructive, mind-corrupting, etc....).

Before trying to feel sorry for anyone, try to feel your head out of that sand. As I've emphatically proven, religion is not the cause for wrongdoing at all, it is something that is beautiful and great and important (like science and art). To deny this, as well as being so lost as to state something so clearly wrong, is to be blinded by fallacy and delusion.

“At the risk of sounding ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by feelings of love.”
-Che

I'm sorry that you've lost sight of this truth, as well as truth itself.

[Igel]

43. Or there's the original (attributed) quote,

which says that it's patriotism, not religion, that's the last refuge of the scoundrel. It took 225 years for a few people to misquote it, but the misquoting seems to have complied with Gresham's Law well enough.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. I'm a Christian

I don't need or want that motto on my money. It threatens my ability to worship whom I please. So if the atheists get politicallly active I'll have to pay for things with "There is no god" on my money?

Just doesn't make sense. Money isn't about God.

[Proud_Democratt]

7. My opinion.....for whatever it's worth.

All US currency, whether coin or note, should not have any mottos or phrases referring God or religious innuendoes placed, stamped or embossed on them.

We should adopt a new national motto, one having no religious ties.

The phrase, "under God" should be removed from our "Pledge of Allegiance" as well. It was placed there in the 50s, under the Eisenhower Administration. We were fine without it before then.
Also, note that there are only TWO countries in the world today that have a pledge, the US and Palestine. This is just another sign of religious extremism.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. I couldn't agree more

but if we take it off and then have a hurricane, you KNOW that will be the reason why!

LOL. Take it off anyway. There are few things I am sure about in life, but I am SURE God doesn't care.

[Proud_Democratt]

14. My question to many people would be...

Were we godless, BEFORE the motto "In God We Trust"???

[manic expression]

25. A few things

Palestine is about as much of a country as Kashmir is (hint: it really isn't).

Anyway, if we can't have a national motto without some sort of reference to religion, we shouldn't have a national motto. Simple as that.

[beam me up scottie]

31. " if we can't have a national motto w/o some sort of reference to religion

we shouldn't have a national motto." ???

Whatever you say Ned Flanders.

Move to Iran.

Better yet, move to Kansas and start your own theocracy.

[manic expression]

39. Understanding is important

you totally misread what I wrote.

I said that if we cannot have a national motto that doesn't have religion in it, then we might as well scrap the idea, because no motto is better than one with a reference to religion.

Does that make sense?

By the way, I'm not responding to your "Ned Flanders" and "theocracy" comments now, purely out of understanding (since I suspect you simply didn't understand what I said).

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. Money should not carry ANY theological statement

Why do you assume that atheists would be just as bad as the theocrats? I would be happy to have the motto removed.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. I'm teasing

to make a point. Personally, as a Christian I do trust in God, so it doesn't bother me from that angle. However, my intelligence tells me that I am fortunate enough to be in the majority at the moment. What if the Muslims, the Hindus, the Atheists...take over? Then I have to buy stuff with their mottos on my money! Yikes!

Best to keep everybody happy and have no mottos at all. Which is the whole genius behind separation of Church and State.

[Proud_Democratt]

18. I would be objective to ANY religious or Atheistic motto.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. obviously.

it flies in the face of separation of Church and State.

[TechBear_Seattle]

21. If you are interested in the history of Separation as a legal principle

I refer you to the Dutch scholar Hugo Grotius who lived from 1583 to 1645.

While he was a devout Calvinist and wrote one of the first published works of Protestant apologetics (De veritate religionis Christianae, "On The Truth of the Christian Religion", published in 1632), Grotius was also a strong proponent of the separation of Church and State, having lived in a period when religious wars between Protestants and Catholics devestated Europe. In several of his works, he advocated the total independence of religious institutions from government influence and religious tolerance. He believed that such was the only way to end the factionalism and bring peace. (See Ordinum pietas "The Piety of the States" (1614), Via ad pacem ecclesiasticam "The Way to Religious Peace" (1642) and De imperio summarum potestatum circa sacra "On the Power of Sovereigns Concerning Religious Affairs" (1647).)

Grotius' works would have a profound impact on western law. In addition to his belief in Separation, he layed the foundations for international waters (De iure praedae "On the Right of Capture" and Mare liberum "Free Seas" (1604)), helped define the doctrine of "just war" and natural law (De iure belli ac pacis "On the Laws of War and Peace" (1625)), advocated for written, enforceable constitutions as a basis for law (Parallelon rerumpublicarum "Comparisons of Constitutions" (1602)) and held up economic competition as a better alternative to war (Mare liberum, De iure belli ac pacis.) He also wrote several important histories of the Dutch Republic that are still used today.

Hugo Grotius is revered as the father of international law. He is depicted on the North Frieze of the US Supreme Court building with other lawgivers, including Moses, Hammurabi, Muhammad and Confucius (among others. See http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf">the official SC building info sheet for the North and South friezes)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. This makes me very proud of my smidgen

of Dutch blood. He was a sensible man.

[Proud_Democratt]

10. How about...

"The Democratic Republic" or "America,The Beautiful"???

[trotsky]

13. Let's go back to the motto the Founders used.

E PLURIBUS UNUM

Rather than a motto designed to separate us from each other.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. I vote for

"Money Talks, Nobody Walks!"

but I think you maybe have to be from the NYC metropolitan area to understand that one.

[ozone_man]

20. Agreed.

Back to the original is as good as any. Out of many, one.

As a country, we've been backsliding since the rationalist era, but have started the swing back to rationalism now. Imperceptibly at first, but it is happening.

We've replaced our ideals such as Lady Liberty on our coinage with a bunch of dead presidents.

[SeattleVet]

22. But we'd have to make the change slowly...

start by adding just one letter, so the coins and currency read "In Gold We Trust", and see how many people even notice that it's now stating the obvious.

[Proud_Democratt]

24. Pat Robertson might approve, Bush would approve.

[manic expression]

27. Someone awhile back suggested

putting "IOU" in Chinese on our money.

Just a thought.

[Proud_Democratt]

36. I would agree

[charlie]

11. Naw, no atheistic aphorisms

Little dollops of truth wouldn't hurt though, like maybe MONEY IS POWER or WE LUUURVE MONEY. Or singles could have, GET IT TOGETHER YOU LOSER! and 100s could say, HAVE A NICE DAY SOLID CITIZEN.

[Goblinmonger]

16. My vote would be for

"I got your God right here." Of course, that's just me.

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. "All others pay cash."

It is no coincidence that the one and only place most people ever see this motto is on money.

I can't help but laugh at the theocrats who insist that, somehow, "In God We Trust" proves we are a Christian nation. It seems to me that it proves were are all Lucrites: "There is no god but Mammon, and the Dollar is His profit."

[beam me up scottie]

32. Or the ones who don't want any motto if they can't invoke their deity

re: post #25

The appearance of fundamentalist dogma on DU never ceases to amaze me.

[manic expression]

41. Are you listening to yourself?

My post clearly said that I would rather have NO national motto than a motto that has a reference to religion.

Is that really so hard to understand? Is it?

Perhaps you should cease being amazed and actually understand what I wrote. Thanks.

[Proud_Democratt]

42. ........deleted