Regardless of what you believe, do you see value in the Bible?

[rogerashton]

It might only be aesthetic value, any value.

"The bible" is, of course, an assembly of very diverse writings combined by one or more committees. Thus, it would be a surprise if all parts were of equal value. And, in practice if not in theory, people I know put greater value on some parts than on others.

For me, in the Hebrew Bible, the story of David has special value. We cannot be sure how much of it is historically true, of course, but so many things about it are surprising (compared with other traditions of hero-kings) that it seems to me it must have a core of truth -- and there must have lived a remarkable genius, politician, poet, musician, military leader, ecstatic mystic, who rallied the Hebrew people in a time of crisis. The tradition of such an unique person must be of value in many ways.

In the "New Testament," the books of Luke and Acts hold my attention and interest particularly. The author is candid to say that it is a work of imagination -- presumably believing that the imagination came from God, and despite the evidence that this author had access to one or more earlier written accounts. Some scholars believe that the author was a woman. I like that idea.

I am not an atheist, but closer to Atheism than to Christianity on any sensible scale, for whatever that matters.

[purduejake]

1. I believe there is value in any work of literature...

even the bible. I haven't read it and I don't intend to, but it has value and is important to many good people. I personally think it's just stories designed to teach people lessons. It's not like the common people were literate or educated in those times... the best way to communicate was through stories.

edit: I just made a completely ignorant statement since I haven't read the Bible. It's just my impression from what I have heard.

[freedom_to_read]

2. of course

Whether you are a biblical fundamentalist, a strict atheist, or somewhere in between the Bible has huge value if you want to understand the culture you live in. It is "the great code of Western literature" as it has been said.

Personally I'm not that much of a true believer, but have studied the Bible, especially the Hebrew Bible, for many years.

One of the most valuable lessons I have learned is that there is often a great and surprising difference between what the mainstream understanding of the biblical "story" is, and what is really in there.

Take your favorite, the story of David. While I am perhaps more skeptical about his "historicality" than you, I think it is fascinating the way this figure is looked on through the eyes of tradition as a model for ethical and religious behavior, when you read the stories in 2 Sam. you get a very different picture! He's an upstart, womanizing, partying baby with a bad temper. And yet, and yet he's favored by God and gets away with almost everything.

[Wisc Badger]

8. Not completly

"and yet he's favored by God and gets away with almost everything."

If you check out the end of King David's life you will find that he did pay a price for his actions. His son rebelled against him and he almost lost his kingdom.

I not sure about the party part of David (far from a knowledgable person concerning the Bible) but I do acknowledge the womanizing part.

Any way just thought I would point this out.

Also his son Solomon for all his wisdom comes to question things in Ecclesastisis (Yeah I know I screwd up the spelling - sorry).

[rogerashton]

11. "Everyone was in love with David,

including God." Where did i read that?

[Az]

26. Remember the price he paid for his wife

1 Sam 18:27 Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

[Warpy]

3. The Old Testament is a Bowdlerized history of a nomadic people

who were making the transition to agriculture and permanent settlement. It's a useful read from that standpoint. Some of it is actually quite beautiful. However, the last thing to do is to take it as either historical fact or as a religious text. It is not. Even fundies feel the need to take a cafeteria approach to Leviticus, since they neither want to murder their children for sassing nor go to the trouble of burning a bull in the back yard.

The bible as a whole forms our basic mythic history in the west, and should be read for that reason, too.

In the New Testament, the Jesus presented in Mark and Matthew is well worth listening to, and this does form a religious text. Paul more properly belongs in the Old Testament, since he contradicted much of the teaching of Jesus in order to make the breakaway Jewish sect more palatable to the rich and powerful.

So yes, it's well worth reading for a number of reasons. I'd suggest reading it cover to cover, though, like a novel, instead of going through little bible study workbooks to find catch phrases preferred by one preacher or another. You miss too much that way.

[Maat]

4. Yes.

But I am going to check into that NRSV version that DUers recommended. It seems like it is my cup of tea.

[jasmeel]

5. Way too much contradiction within the bible for it to be useful

I believe people see justification for whatever they want to do/believe when they look to the bible and that frightens me. I have found religion to be more scary then uplifting.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. "Not useful" is not the same thing as "without value"

I don't think much of the bible as a moral compass - nearly all the precepts contained therein are either self-evident or wrong, and little supporting argument is given beyond "do this because I say so" - or as a factual work - the new testament was written decades after the events described, second or more hand - but I do think that the King James bibles is beautifully written - there are very few works of English verse more stirring not written by Shakespeare.

One of the very few things that Jack Chick and I agree about is the superiority of the King James Bible to every other version I've read. The authors of the others are trying to write prose, the authors of the KJB were writing verse, and did so brilliantly.

I do agree that the bibles that university christian unions hand out, written in modern English, by people more concerned with making them "relevant" and "approachable" than with actuallyy writing well, with helpful hints and explanations and bullet points, are virtually without value, though.

[FormerDittoHead]

6. My take on the Bible

Did you ever try to READ the Bible?

I don't mean that in a "Fundamentalist" sense, where, after every freaking PARAGRAPH someone would tell you "OK, what THIS means is..."

I mean, actually READ the thing, and for it to make ANY sense?

OK, it's an old book, has gone through a couple of language translations, words and terms don't mean the same, etc etc etc???

Good point. I mean, we're still trying to figure out what the Founding Fathers means by "the people" and the exact definition of "arms" in the second amendment.

But here's my problem. Read Plato's Republic. It pre-dates the New Testament by like 2-300 years?

You know something funny? It succeeds in presenting fairly abstract and complicated ideas, and it MAKES SENSE. YOU CAN READ IT..

So, I "axe" myself, why the hell did the writers of the Bible make it so, well, CONFUSING and AMBIGUOUS?

Consider: if it WERE REALLY the "word of God" (capital G - the guy who put together atoms and molecules) wouldn't it be "ultra clear" and free of any POSSIBLE ambiquity?

As it is, NO ONE can (practically) use the Bible without "cherry picking" from it. There is no section, for example, on "gay sex" which goes through, point by point why "God" is against it. I mean, if Plato thought gay sex was "unjust" then he'd go on and on about it, and after the 4th or 5th point, we'd GET it already!

So, in the end, the Bible is whatever one wants it to say, and as such, you can pick up any book and start to read things "into" it...

[rogerashton]

12. To be fair,

If God existed, and had dictated the Bible (as Muslims believe he dictated the Koran), the ideas of an infinite mind might be very difficult for we finite minds to understand, and might seem to us to be vague and contradictory as a result.

As a teacher, I find that pretty plausible!

[FormerDittoHead]

14. Aren't you underestimating God's power?

If you're saying, however, that the Bible was written by men and not God, then yes, I agree, but it seems funny that you suggest that *God* would have a "problem" doing ANYTHING...

[rogerashton]

20. Well, good point! n/t

[ladjf]

7. The "Bible" is obviously a book worth examining.

It continues words of wisdom, consolation and joy, just to mention some. However, it is insufficient to be the total guiding source of human action. In fact, that type of misuse is extremely dangerous as we are currently witnessing.

[Wisc Badger]

9. I guess the fact that it has lasted as long as it has

and still has an impact 2 - 3 thousand years after it (or parts of it) were written gives it a certain amount of importance.

God know enough blood has been spilled for it in supposed defense of it or an interpretation of it.

[rogerashton]

13. The Gathas,

sacred scriptures of Zoroastrianism, may have been around longer, but get much less notice. And I'm not sure that has anything to do with relative values.

Has a lot to do with who won what war, though.

http://www.avesta.org/gathas.htm

[freedom_to_read]

15. might have something to do

with the fact that Zoroastrians cannot "convert" people. You have to be born into it?

I took a course in Iranian religion in grad school... very interesting and, from a western perspective, very very weird.

[salvorhardin]

10. It makes a good doorstop...

At least the heavy, leather bound ones do.






Wait! Before Christians everywhere burn me in effigy, I have to say that the Bible has enormous value. Any book that has inspired so many people throughout history and has contributed to uncounted cultural works is of value, if only to understand the culture one lives in.

[Kindigger]

17. Read Joseph Campbell

and see that the book is just one of many sources of universal archtypes, morality, and customs which naturally comes about as people form societies.

I love history, and find it interesting to read different cultures' attempts at understanding the meaning of existence, although I hate wading through all those "begats" :)

Actually, I prefer the story of BC natives emerging from a clam shell.

Its a nice book except for those morans Matthew and Co. I wonder if they would have any remorse if they suddenly appeared, and saw what kind of monster they'd created. I also want to know what kind of acid the "other John" was on when he wrote Revelations.

[rogerashton]

21. Well Joseph Campbell was pretty much of a mythopoet himself,

as I understand it.

[libra]

19. ROFLMYO

How funny . . .

[Az]

16. Yes and no

The book divorced from its religious background has both wisdom and profound examples of superstition. The OT in particular is filled with conflict ordered by God. This creates a clear image in some people's mind that destruction of sinners and nonbelievers is a good thing.

But the NT carries with it what I sometimes call the humanist evolution of the belief system. The OT's doctrine was too harsh to enable the belief system to spread effectively. It is natural to have expected a mutation of the initial belief system to embrace a kinder and more tolerant approach. This merely made the belief easier to spread.

But this is also why there is wisdom contained within the NT (there is wisdom in the OT as well but it is severly overshadowed by the stark contrast of the tyranny). The social changes in the NT come about because new ideas had been realised since the initial beliefs were set down. But dogmatic belief being the creature it is the evolution had to appear to pay heed to the original concepts. So it evolved along the lines it could.

Thus the Golden rule exemplifies an idea that most succesful philosophical and religious groups eventually adapt. It is a strong idea born out of the nature of our species basic social instincts and manner in which we learn our behavour. A philosophy that does not embrace this notion is going to have a difficult time spreading its message. It is not just a matter of giving the doctrine a heart. It is very effective at building strong societies. And a strong society is going to have a much easier time spreading its culture than a weak one.

It is the adherance to the doctrine as an absolute that creates the problems for the religion. As a set of guidelines it is enlightening and a positive force for those that require an example to formulate their moral model. But as a authoratative dogmatic declaration it (and any such declarations) become a rock upon which people are broken. Positioned as the only path it becomes destructive and its wisdom is tarnished by association.

[ClassicDem]

18. Absolutely

the individuals who compliled the Bible were enlightened.

[rogerashton]

22. By way of summary,

Most here believe that the book has some value, but not as a total guide to life, and that some parts are of greater value than others, with some quite negative.

(It's good to be in the mainstream for once!)

There seem to be two reasons for finding it of value, and they do not seem to overlap much. Some find some of the stories of value in themselves for one reason or another. Others see the value as residing in the fact that the book has had so much influence on our culture, including some dangerous neighbors. As Hagar the Horrible said, it's important to look at things from the other person's point of view. That way he can't pull any trick moves on you.

A few exceptions see the book as having no or negative value, principally because the contradictions render it meaningless and/or the bad bits so much outweigh the good.

One or two seem to be ready to invest their faith in the book as a guide to life, though these exceptions are not quite explicit.

What a very thoughtful group, as evidenced by the fact that so many agree with me! ;-)

[FormerDittoHead]

23. One last word

Although, in an earlier msg I questioned the value of READING the Bible (which is what I inferred by your OP), STUDYING the Bible is something completely different.

I sincerely believe that one can not really understand our history, esp the history of our modern philosophy of equality, without its study.

And, unless you know the stories of the Bible, you'll be bored to tears touring Italian museums.

[vixengrl]

25. I think it has a lot of value as a literary, historical and cultural

artifact. I think it's because I view the Bible in terms of history and literature that I prefer the King James Version, even though modern translations might be easier to read. By saying "historically valuable", I'm not implying I view the stories of the Bible as being particularly true or historically factual, but what's in the Bible has affected people in hstory, and what they have believed and done. And the Bible also came to be *in history*--it evolved out of a pool of religious literature, and had many authors. It's who those people were, why they wrote Gospels, or what was going on politically or socially to generate certain epistles, that fascinates me--but I think I appreciate that more when looking at other writings of the same rough time-frame--like the Dead Sea scrolls or the Apocrypha, and the Gnostic Gospels. It's, I guess, the *editing* that interests me as much as the content.

[Astarho]

27. Yes (and I'm a pagan)

It is an interesting mytho-historical account. And I say mytho-historical meaning there may be a kernel of historical truth to parts behind centuries of exaggeration. Some things may be real, like the accounts of Babylonian and Assyrian conquests, while others like Moses seem to be borrowed from other myths.

As an example, the flood story: It was obviously based on Mesopotamian myths which themselves may hold dim memories of an earlier event, possibly the Black Sea flood.

The New Testament is more philosophical with aspects of Jesus' life interpersed with elements of myth. And it has had an influence on western civilization.

Also the Song of Solomon is one of the most beautiful examples of erotic love poetry.