Tell me about Heaven

[Az]

There seem to be more descriptions of Hell roaming around than Heaven. Even though Heaven is supposed to be the goal. What are your individual perspectives of what you think Heaven is going to be like?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Heaven is right here if you know where to look

It is all in the attitude and outlook on life. Since each person is individual, I think that the descriptions of heaven are different for each being.

A Sufi's goal is to die before death; to appreciate life and yet see the larger picture as well, to realize both the self and the Self.

Heaven, to me, is to be immersed in the One, and this happens in zkr, a ceremony of remembrance.

[pocoloco]

4. His disciples said to him,

"When will the Kingdom of the Father come?"

"It will not come by anticipation. It will not be a matter of saying
'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather the Kingdom of the Father is
spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it."

Thomas 113

[yinkaafrica]

5. That is very cool

Never heard that verse

[kweerwolf]

6. Thanks, pocoloco

I've always been a big admirer of the Gospel of Thomas. It contains what I feel is the essence of Christianity (and is believed to be the first gospel to be written). It's a shame the early church fathers declined to include it in the Bible, but I'm sure that has something to do with it saying the church is within us. That didn't set well with the early church leaders who felt like such a statement would negate their hierarchy and control of the church.

[ruthg]

17. I am learning about Gnostic Christianity these days....

very interesting stuff....reccomended starting point Elaine Pagels The Gnostic Gospels.

[yinkaafrica]

7. Does it require many years to understand?

All I recall is that you sit on bent heels, right hand on the left thigh, left hand over the right wrist so as to form a 'negative particle' in Arabic (I don't recall the name). In such repose, one is the symbol of the nonexistence of the Sufi before the Beloved so as to forgo attention to and belief in this world, the hereafter, and onself.

I never understood The Divine Names, either :)

I had a part time employee who was a Sufist.
I didn't bug him about it too often but it seemed
difficult to me. Is it difficult?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. uh....

there are as many ways of doing zkr as there are Sufis, I think. Each Sufi order has their own special way of doing zkr, and there are many vairations. I haven't done the practice as you've described. I've done it in many different ways-

1. Sitting crosslegged on the floor, sweeping the head from left to right, then bowing to the heart and lifting the head...

2. Holding hands in a line with other women, stepping from side to side and forward and back

3. Holding hands in a circle, doing a 'rowing motion' with a slow rocking of the feet

4. Holding hands, elbows bent, shoulder to shoulder, jumping.

5. Standing and moving as directed by the shaykh.

The last three have been in mixed company-Sufis, espcially here in the US, don't always segregate men from women.

Some of the zkr tunes are very Middle Eastern in their music; others are contemprorary, and one even sounds like the music came from an old 50s rock and roll tune.

Difficult? I never have found it so, but then this is my life's calling. I do know that anyone, be they an initiate or not, can do zkr if they wish. For some, it may seem odd or uncomfortable-but they aren't 'looked down upon' if they don't participate or even leave. I know that monks and nuns of other faiths enjoy doing zkr as much as Sufi initiates do(as do a few rabbis I know).

Think of the 99 Beautiful Names as attributes of God. Many of them can be found in humans, and some Sufi initiates are given one of the Names as a practice to enhance that quality within themselves. Some examples of these names are Karim (generousity), Rahman (mercy), Rahim (compassion).

If you have a chance to go to a zkr, you might wish to try it out. I've never been to one where there is any pressure from those leading the zkr to either join in or to become a Sufi initiate. Sufis don't go out recruiting members-some orders, in fact, make it difficult to become an initiate so that only true seekers join.

[kwassa]

9. I agree with your sense of heaven

Where do you practice sufism?

I've read Rumi, and "Among the Dervishes", and always felt an attraction to the sect.

I also think Heaven is to immersed in God, and is experienced in the here and now, not a place after we die. The same goes for Hell, actually.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Not where-when

with each breath. My husband and I live in NW Arkansas, and there are other Sufis around (not all of the same order, but that doesn't matter, as all are welcome).

I know the Sufi Order International has as its headquarters the Abode of the Message in New Lebanon, NY (between Poughkeepsie and Albany). My husband's teacher has classes in Burbank CA. Other Sufis have meetings in the Seattle area, DFW and Austin TX, and other places besides.

If you are seeking a Sufi order, you could go online and find if there is a tekka or other Sufi gathering place in your area. The Dances of Universal Peace, though not directly related to Sufism (they are open to everyone), are often led by Sufi initiates.

Here is a url that may help you:

Church of All (my husband's teacher's website): http://www.churchofall.us
--this one has links to the Sufi Order International, the Mevlevi Order, and the Dances of Universal Peace

[kwassa]

13. Thank you very much

I will check them out!

[Dr.Phool]

2. All my friends will be in hell

With me!

"The invisible and the non-existent look remarkably similar"

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. You might find this interesting, then

My husband says "When you can smile in hell, you have truly reached heaven."

[Selwynn]

3. I am agnostic about heaven, and it has nothing to do with faith for me

If there is life beyond the grave - great, that's like a benefits package, an added perk. But it has nothing to do with my personal belief. For me my spiritual beliefs are fundamentally about this life, not some other life.

[More Than A Feeling]

12. My cousin the pentacostal preacher told me...

that heaven was eternal and complete union with God. He and I don't agree on much, but I like that description, even though I don't think that we can truly know what heaven will be like until we experience it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. The most interesting portayal of heaven I've seen

was in a production of "Orpheus in the Underworld".

The set was very simple - a bare stage, lit with sunlight, with a backdrop of sky onto which a patch of clouds blowing in the wind and a patch of running water were projected. There was a Narnia-style lampost, a picnic table, and a couple of coloured umbrellas hung at jaunty angles in the air.

The chorus were in victorian dress, as mixture of society ladies and gents. One was a policeman, another a vicar, some were having tea, others playing with a ball, two girls were making a cats cradle, a man was fixing his bycyle, another reading, and so one. The overall impression was of a group of bright young things in a story by P. G. Wodehouse.

As we watched Orpheus wander about singing, they went about their business in the backrground, walking backwards and forwards, greeting one another, saying goodbye and leaving, and so on. Then, when I'd been watching for a few minutes, I suddenly realised that all the gestures were repeating themselves every 90 seconds or so. There was a man who would walk on, greet a girl at the picnic table, sit down, talk to her for a while whilst a maid brought them tea, kiss her on the cheek, and walk off, and then do it all over again.

It was one of the most striking demonstrations I've seen of why attempting to envisage a heaven anything like this world is absurd, I think.

[lazarus]

15. Which one?

The one with a bunch of virgins in paradise?

Or the one where you have good hunting all the time?

Or the one where you party with your ancestors and gods until it's time to go outside and fight for fun?

Or the one where you sit around and praise god for eternity?

As Twain said in "Letters From the Earth", it's remarkable that the one thing humans desire above all other things is left out of the Christian heaven. (That's sex.) Instead, it's filled with things people here on earth don't want to do. In general, people don't like singing, playing instruments, and praising god. Most Christians are hard put to attend church an hour a week. And they expect to enjoy 24/7 for the rest of eternity?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Don't know

But when I get there, I'll send you a postcard telling you all about it. :evilgrin:

[ruthg]

18. "It is a place very much like San Francisco..."

sez Tony Kushner ( who knows everything)

[Chained in Guatanamo]

19. Never been there

I've never been there, but I can tell you about hell. It's called Iraq. I just got back to the country today from my tour of duty. I might have to go back. Thanks Bush!

[shawn703]

20. My belief about what Heaven will be is different

From what most people believe in my opinion. First of all, you will not have any of your worldly or fleshly desires - since anything that is part of your sinful nature will not make it into Heaven. If you think about what that really means, in addition to the obedience and eternal praise and worship of the Lord, I don't know if many people in their current unenlightened states would actually want to go to Heaven. If you imagine what the perfect relationship between God and Man is supposed to be, if people think it's a hassle to even do a fraction of that now they won't be happy spending eternity that way.