What Has Your Belief / Non-Belief Done for You?

[Proud_Democratt]

I realize this may be personal, feel free to share if you'd like. For some, their belief freed them from drug addiction, alcoholism, and other "sins".....or maybe had a hard time dealing with a loved one's death?

[Deja Q]

1. I used to believe in reincarnation.

But if being compassionate and caring and undesired qualities in a world ran by money and not people... :(

[TallahasseeGrannie]

26. I am not convinced

that reincarnation does not exist. A lot of very interesting anecdotes out there.

[Warpy]

2. My lack of belief in a vengeful god has given me great freedom

to think things through on their own, to view the world without the bars of a religious prison in the way, to let go gracefully when it was time for my parents to leave this life, and to confront my own passage with a sense of adventure instead of dread.

I can't speak to shedding addictions because I've never had one to shed.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. You say you don't believe in a vengeful

god, yet you look forward to an adventure after death. Do you then, I'm assuming, believe in an afterlife of some sort?

I'm also wondering what your childhood was like regarding faith or religion. You mention "religious prison." Was it very constricting?

[Warpy]

33. You know what they say about people who ASSume, Grannie

and that is your strawman, so go knock him down.

No, I said I consider the end of my life to be an adventure. That is all.

I don't know if anything comes after we slip into unconsciousness at the end and neither do you.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. Why you naughty thing!

No, I sure don't know anything. But I ASSume there is something there.

And if there isn't, I won't know so that's okay, too.

T-Grannie sitting with a strawman on her lap

[bloom]

54. "to confront my own passage with a sense of adventure"

I think it was a valid question - not a strawman - that TG was seeking clarification about.

If you had said that you were confronting your own "passing" - that would be one thing. "Passage" and "adventure" suggests that you expect to go somewhere else.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. My spiritual path changed my life

I had felt that I was a stranger in the world until I found my spiritual path. It led me to a community where I always feel at home, I am treated as a sister and welcomed by all. It led me to my soul mate, a total change of occupation, and, finally, a change in world view and how the world really works.

[eShirl]

4. non-belief allowed me to realize my life is my own responsibility

It is up to me what I make of my life, or not. And when my actions affect others negatively, I have no supreme being which can magically forgive my "sin;" I must make amends to the person as best I can, reflect on my actions and try to learn so I can act more responsibly and ethically in the future.

One of the greatest thrills to me is looking out into the star-filled sky at night, knowing we're hurtling through mostly-nothingness on a little rock, one of so many, just a blip in the great vastness of time and space. It makes my toes warm.

edit to add: I was able to quit my addiction to cigarettes three years ago, but it had nothing to do with any belief or non-belief. It was just a matter of deciding not to smoke again and sticking to it no matter what (which required constant vigilance the first several weeks/months). The last, unfinished pack still sits in the back of the hutch, in a ziplock bag (and probably tastes like ass by now).

[xchrom]

5. released me from the compulsion to drink and drug.

[Minnesota Libra]

6. I used to believe completely in a loving "God" and "Heavenly Father"......

....but one thing always bothered me and that was the story of Job. You know, supposedly lucifer goes to god with a message about hey your servant Job there is great and you love him but what if.......... So god tells lucifer he can't kill Job but he's free to do anything else. Of course all this is going on in the "spiritual realm" while poor Job is stuck in the "physical realm" and has no defense against what god and lucifer dream up. Anyway, the story goes on to say Job lost everything including his health until god got around to telling lucifer "enough is enough already". Eventually god restores everything Job had and more and the moral of the story is supposedly that bad things happen to good people.

Well, as I said, I always had a problem with the "bad things to good people" thing. What's the use of "following god" who is supposedly all knowing, all doing, all able when he and only he gets to decide when and if to come to your aid? What's the use of following a god who will on a whim turn his back on a person and let bad luck rain down like a torrent and the poor victim is supposed to deal with it as best he can but always with a smile? :wtf:

The "where were you when I was creating the universe" argument doesn't work for me because I'm a realist. I don't give my loyalty to someone or something just because it's the popular thing to do. I give my loyalty because that something or someone has earned it.

Yes, I think there was a Jesus who lived in Nazareth and was put to death by the Romans by crucification. I also think Jesus was a far left wing radical of his day and had a following as did John. I also believe Jesus was/is used to control through religion. How? Religion is a wonderful control mechanism that keeps the masses in line without using the military. Even if the military is used (see history) it can all be done using "God" as an excuse.

So at the moment I believe something/someone created our universe but I don't think/believe there is a god interested in being involved in our daily lives or necessarily looking out for our best interests. Quite the opposite in fact, I believe we are here on our own and who knows from here?

Maybe my religious views will change yet again when I gain even more information.

[Gregorian]

8. Even Jesus said, Why hath thou forsaken me.

The earth is not god's domain. It's Satans. From what I have gained, Satan is like Bush. He was supposed to be a leader who would take care, but had his own agenda and took control. It is evident when Jesus is tempted by him. When Satan says Jesus can (I'm trying to recall with a very fuzzy mind) have all of the world's treasures if he will just worship him, Jesus says, get thee behind me Satan. It's not Jesus's world, it's Satan's. There are other examples that I'm forgetting. But I think the temptation is one which most people miss. It's not about the trials of Jesus. It's about who is running this show right here. And that explains all of the pain and suffering, even in the face of god. And we also don't know what the truth of it all is. I mean, if there is a battle between these angels, maybe it is more important than what we are experiencing. Maybe cancer and depression and wars are minor and insignificant in comparison. We don't know.

Anyone who says they know, is lying. We can only digest what we have. And it's only glimpses of it. We're living in an evil world that was once perfect. I see the perfection. But it's ruined. It's like entropy. We go from working, to global warming.

I only stand to get myself in trouble by posting. It's not like I have enough biblical fluency to do anything. That's why it's personal. I see what I see. In the bible, and on earth.

I think the only thing that will save us is an open mind. A willingness to see. And to know that we may not know. It's the arrogance of those who claim to know that has caused us so much trouble. I need this in my own life. Not just for everyone else.

[Minnesota Libra]

18. You may may well be right. So for the sake of a question I will.......

....assume everything you say is true and that earth is not God's domain but was and is Lucifer's domain. Cool, don't got a problem with that, in fact it makes more sense than anything else I've ever heard. However, here's my question. If "God" loves man so much and HE is so all everything why didn't God simply say something to the affect of, "Ok, Lucifer you're out, you screwed it up and now it's my turn." Also, there's another issue I've always had with "traditional religion" explanations of everything. If indeed "God" knew from before the beginning of time what was going to happen with everything then why put Lucifer on earth to rule over man in the first place?

Please, understand I'm NOT trying to be contentious or dispute your claims in the least. Rather you've offered what seems to be a very logical explanation for how the world is right now. So, maybe you have even more ideas that I've never heard of but hearing some more of your ideas might go a long way in settling a few issues I've always wondered about. So please take this as an honest inquiry because that's how it's meant.

[Gregorian]

21. I've asked the same question.

The answer I got was "We don't know.". But there are passages in the bible that speak of battles in high places that we cannot see. One thing that keeps coming back to me is the word "choice". It appears that god gives choice. If we couldn't choose, life would be meaningless. We chose to disobey in the Garden of Eden. Whether literal or not, is not important. But that choice was evidently how we ended up with our own responsibility. We were taken care of. But now we're on our own. We chose it. And it appears that Lucifer was an angel who when given the opportunity, chose to hoard for himself. And God keeps his word. So we live with these choices. I think of the story of Abraham. Who would ever want to sacrifice their child. He obeyed God's command. And his son was spared. Of course, I'm reading that literally. I believe that actually happened.

I think the problem is complicated by the fact that we are part of the experiment that we are observing. The pain and suffering are ours. Maybe choice is so important that it overrides our pain. Again, I do not know. No one does. The best we can do is try to make sense of what information we have. I only know the bible.

Sadly, the person whom I rely on for my biblical research is very old now. He spent nearly 3/4 of a century diligently studying the bible. He is quite opposed to churches. He systematically dissects the bible in an orderly fasion, in order to find logical meaning. Like the Lord's Prayer. That's another where there is an indication of how we are in a place that is not like the other place. "On earth, as it is in heaven". It's not like heaven here. We cannot expect it to be.

I wish I had finished the book I'm starting before replying to this. It's titled What Jesus Meant. By Garry Wills. I really have to do it. I'm so utterly devastated by events that are happening. I'm 50, and am starting to lose what optimism I had. I can hardly get the energy to open the book. I've been so energetic, and accomplished so much in my life. Now I'm falling. I always thought we were all on the same page. All pulling for a better world. I was wrong. Of course, trying to sell my house isn't making things any more stable. :) Oh, where was I? Jesus was not the nice guy. He came to warn and to stir up things. We live with Cheney's amongst us. I think he came to wake us up. He also came to help those who are not the Cheneys. But that's where I am failing. My faith is thin. I cannot trust. I am not sure there are many who can. The Ghandi's and Mandela's of the world are few. But he came to let us know there is hope in the face of this evil we live with.

[Minnesota Libra]

24. Wow, I can sure relate to this. You sound like you're talking about......

....me when you say...(my comments at the bottom)....."I'm 50, and am starting to lose what optimism I had. I can hardly get the energy to open the book. I've been so energetic, and accomplished so much in my life. Now I'm falling. I always thought we were all on the same page. All pulling for a better world. I was wrong. Of course, trying to sell my house isn't making things any more stable. Oh, where was I? Jesus was not the nice guy. He came to warn and to stir up things. We live with Cheney's amongst us. I think he came to wake us up. He also came to help those who are not the Cheneys. But that's where I am failing. My faith is thin. I cannot trust. I am not sure there are many who can. The Ghandi's and Mandela's of the world are few. But he came to let us know there is hope in the face of this evil we live with."

I'm 58 yrs old and I think I started loosing my faith when Reagan (an actor) was elected as President "because he could talk to people". Well duh, he was an actor so of course he's going to be good in front of the camera. Then when he was reelected I lost even more hope for a better life in this country and around the world. I simply couldn't understand why people didn't see how horrible Bush #41, former head of the CIA, was going to be for this country. Clinton was a short respite but then Bush #43 came along and all hell broke loose. We can't even depend on our elections anymore to straighten things out so we are whisper away from all out fascism. Once Bush utters that one little whisper there's no turning back and it scares the hell out of me. I have no idea what choices we can or should make from here to turn this all around but I do know your comments speak for more than just yourself.

[believerinchrist]

16. So many people don't understand the book of Job and

thus, miss the whole point of the narrative. First, when Satan (among the other angels) came to God, he had already been casing the earth looking for someone to destroy. The actual Hebrew rendering of God's reply is "Hast thou set thy heart upon Job...a perfect and upright man." Satan then said words to the effect, "Yeah, you have a hedge around him; you put the screws to him and he'll curse you." What God answered back should resound throughout the human race--THERE IS NO HEDGE!!! He limited what Satan could do because of what Job had done in giving to others (see Psalm 41--it goes hand-in-hand with the story of Job).

So, Satan destroyed Job's personal life and his possessions. What followed between Job and his three "friends" shows the lack of the power in religion. All the friends could do was condemn Job--"You must have done something really wrong"--while Job defended himself with the sentiment, "I didn't do anything wrong; it's all God's fault. He hates me without cause!" Finally, after no one changed anyone's mind, a young man named Elihu (which means "God Himself") spoke. Listen to some of what he said:

Behold God is mighty , and DESPISETH NOT ANY: he is mighty in strength and wisdom.

He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor.

He withdraweth not his eyes from the RIGHTEOUS: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them forever, and they are exalted.

AND IF THEY BE BOUND IN FETTERS, AND BE HELD IN CORDS OF AFFLICTION;

THEN HE SHOWETH THEM THEIR WORK, AND THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS THAT THEY HAVE EXCEEDED.

He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.

If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.

But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

Job 36:5-12 (KJV)

You see we don't know the hearts of people. How many times do couples who have the "perfect relationship" get divorced and surprise those who know them? It's the same principle here--none of us is perfect. In Job's case, his failing was that his focus was on what he did, not on who God is. Thus, when trouble came, he was unable to exercise the power to overcome and stop Satan. However, God didn't give up on him; after Elihu finished talking, God spoke to Job and opened his eyes to see two things: who God is and who Satan is (the behemoth and the levithan). After God finished speaking, Job spoke words we all should hear, "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: BUT NOW MY EYES SEETH THEE. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:5-6). Job's focus changed--his heart was now God's, not his. Now, he was able to rely on God's strength and wisdom, not on his own. And, he experienced the pleasures faith brings.

One of Jesus Christ's purposes was to help the human race focus on God and not on religion. This is why he talked about being "born again." Until there is a change on the inside of us, we cannot understand God and his love and power towards the human race--evil blinds us. What we lack is not the ability to believe (the Bible says God has given everyone the measure of faith), but the knowledge and understanding of what we believe. Because gaining this "information" takes time and hard work, many of us are satified to depend upon what others tell us. Thus, when evil comes against us (in Satan's eyes there are no good or evil people--he wants to destroy us all), many times we become victims instead of overcomers. My prayer for the human race is that the knowledge, understanding, wisdom, and strength of God will come forth to individuals to give them the power of faith.

[Gregorian]

22. Thank you.

I understand. I have forgotten, but I see again. I must stay focused.

[Silent3]

28. The thing that always bothered me most about the story of Job...

...is not what happened to Job, but what happened the rest of his family. His wife (Or was it wives, plural? I can't remember.) and children are treated as nothing more than possessions, their suffering and death matters not a bit, except as it affects Job. Hey, kill off my loved ones, fine, no problem! As long as you make new loved ones as replacements for me in the end, it's all good.

That God, what a guy!

[believerinchrist]

35. What happened to Job has happened to many others...

Look at our world--death and destruction touch everyone's life. And, it seems natural to blame God for all our misery. What makes the book of Job different is that it includes an explanation of what happens when destruction hits and an answer to the questions of why evil happens and how to overcome it. Job's children were important to God (just like every human being is), but evidently God was not important to them (Job was afraid they were sinning and cursing God in their hearts). Satan takes advantage of our resistance to and/or neglect of God in order to destroy us.

(I believe that one reason many people operate under religious "laws" is that they hope if they are good enough, they might escape destruction. Perhaps this was what Job was hoping with his children--if so, it didn't work.)

What hope is there then? Jesus Christ made a curious statement while he was on this earth: "The thief (Satan) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10) Does this mean that the life that Christ came to give us is more abundant (greater) than the loss, death, and destruction that Satan brings? Could it be that his purpose was not to insure that we go to heaven when we die, but to give us the life that does not end? Is it possible to overcome evil and death? If so, how do we do it?

The Book of Job shows us the struggle one man went through in order to make sense of the terrible things that happened to him--he found his answers. He learned that God was not the source of his trouble, Satan was; that his focus had been on what he was doing and not on who God is; and that he needed to demand understanding from God (Job 42:4). If we truly want to overcome evil and destruction, pounding God for answers may well be the place to start.

[Silent3]

36. Yadda, yadda, yadda...

Look at our world--death and destruction touch everyone's life. And, it seems natural to blame God for all our misery. What makes the book of Job different is that it includes an explanation of what happens when destruction hits and an answer to the questions of why evil happens and how to overcome it. Job's children were important to God (just like every human being is), but evidently God was not important to them (Job was afraid they were sinning and cursing God in their hearts). Satan takes advantage of our resistance to and/or neglect of God in order to destroy us.

It's a whole lot easier and far more straight forward to forget about God, forget about elaborate justifications, forget about "trying to make sense" of death and destruction and misery, and realize that bad things don't need any special explanation -- it makes perfect sense that when there's no one minding the store, calamity which can't be averted is simply going to happen by chance, no rhyme or reason about it beyond the simple unfolding of natural laws.

The God of the Bible -- a completely fictional character to me -- is a miserable excuse for a Being. It amazes me how far people will go in performing explanatory backflips to try to convince others that this petulant, petty tyrant is not only real, but a wonderful guy when you get to really know Him.

[bluesbassman]

39. So, if for arguments sake...

we take the earthly segment of Job's story to be true (leaving the spiritual implications out for the moment), that Job was an honest, ethical and moral man who's life was suddenly overcome by calamity and disaster, you feel that this is the product of random chance and requires no "special explanation"? Where is the balance in this? Where is the "cause" for the "effect"?

You are fond of saying that the universe owes us no explanations, but I would feel pretty confident in assuming that you believe that the product of your efforts are in direct proportion to the effort/skill/talent you apply. That is not random chance. That is the universe applying it's "natural" laws and responding accordingly. Yet in response to misery, suffering and tragedy, you assert that it is merely "chance"?

As to God being a "petulant, petty tyrant", please cite some references to support this claim. And as I'm sure you have volumes that you could share, just the main ones will suffice.

[Evoman]

44. Of course good things are in large part due to chance

For a kid growing up in Darfur or Ethipia, effort/skill/ talent are not going to make him any more likely to be happy. Unless your picking your parents before birth, luck and random-ness has as much to do with happiness as it does disaster. Personal choices do have some effect...if you start doing crack, chances are your life isnt going to get any better. If you lazy, your probably not going to be as succesful as the guy who works hard. Good stuff happens to bad people. Bad stuff happens to good people. And vice versa as well.

God is not needed to explain anything.

As for the putulant, petty tyrant thing.....have you read the old testament? Its late, so I'm not going to grab my bible right now to find passages. But god seems to me to be just as bad as Satan. After all, wasn't it god who made the designs for that burning lake of fire.

[believerinchrist]

52. Just briefly, the Bible is a progressive revelation of God.

The Old Testament writers had limited understanding of God--He was never considered to be a father, but to be the Law-giver and Judge. They also had little understanding of Satan. While Christ was here on the earth, one of his purposes was to correct the Hebrew concept of God and what God "required." He reminded people that the law was made for man, not man for the law.

You're right about the kid growing up in Darfur or Ethiopia. In fact, many people in this world are in such horrible circumstances that personal choice means little. How important it is for believers to pray and fight the spiritual warfare to set the whole human race free from evil. There is no way any human being or group can physically overcome evil--even if we all gave all the money and time we could, we couldn't defeat the power of evil that has so many victims in this world. But, believers are not limited to money and time; we have the power of prayer and of the love of God.

[Random_Australian]

53. "There is no way any human being or group can physically overcome evil"

Why is that?

(I presume that you are not implying that this is because evil is not something physical, more that humans will be unable to overcome it, no matter how they struggle)
(However of course I could be wrong in which case feel free to correct, elucidate or otherwise clarify)

[believerinchrist]

55. Evil is sometimes a force with physical results because

the evil that originates with people begins, for the most part, in the mind, not in physical action. Also, words can be a powerful force of evil (just like they can of good). Now, there is also evil that is totally physical (like earthquakes, some floods, etc.). While people can overcome any of their own thoughts and words that are evil, they can't stop the evil in other people's minds and lives. And, there is no physical way to stop an earthquake from killing multitudes and destroying the life of any survivors. Add to that the fact that there is enough nuclear, biological, and chemical weaponry in our world to decimate the human race, evil does seem impossible to physically overcome.

While I'm not going to naively say, "If we would only all believe in Jesus, evil would go away," I am going to say that there is power in the prayers of believers who not only talk the talk, but also walk the walk. If there is any hope that evil will be totally defeated, it will be in Christ. I, for one, am holding onto and acting upon the hope that what Christ accomplished through his death and resurrection was sufficient to destroy evil.

[believerinchrist]

46. Well, then where's your hope, and

if God is fictional, how can he be a miserable excuse for a being petulant and petty? You know, when I first started posting here, I was going through some things that were pulling against my faith in God. As I read comments from people who didn't believe in Him (for whatever reason), I could see where many of them were coming from. However, as I thought about my circumstances and remembered all the times when I felt overwhelmed, I also remembered the comfort that God gave me on my inside where no other person could reach. As I thought about the times when I read the Bible and didn't understand or when there were questions I could not answer, I remembered the knowledge, understanding, and wisdom God gave me. As I thought about the time when I could not forgive someone, I remembered how God patiently worked with me and helped me understand how to forgive that person. You see, my faith in God does not rely on anyone other than myself and Him--His love is a living force in my life. He has proven to me that He exists and that He loves me and every other human being.

There are many reasons in this world to not believe God, and I believe He understands that and doesn't hold it against anyone. In my eyes, what makes God so wonderful is that He allows us to choose what we believe and loves us anyway. This is a definite paradox; if I had one wish,it would be that every person in our world could individually understand the love God has for him or her. The power of religion would die and the human race would be set free.

[Proud_Democratt]

47. How can anyone speak for God?

Do we know the limits of his tolerance?
Do we know that any god exists?
Do we understand God?
Do we know if we are understood by God?

I contend that God is a human invention to pacify our hurts and explain our lack of scientific explanation.

[believerinchrist]

51. I can't speak for God;

I can only share my understanding. A relationship with God begins in the heart, but if the believer doesn't spend time in gaining knowledge, understanding, and wisdom, he or she will not benefit fron faith. By the way, science can only give us what people observe and hypothesize--just as soon as something is considered to be factual, someone else comes up with a different hypothesis. Actually, if we step back and look at science, it is just as confusing as religion because there are many different interpretations of the observations scientists make.

I know many people believe God is a fairy tale or a human invention. My heart and my experiences tell me something different. What I believe is not dependent on any person, but on the knowledge, understanding, and wisdom--concrete answers to problems I have faced--that I have received from spending time with God and asking questions.

[Evoman]

43. God made Satan knowing he was gonna be evil

So god is the ultimate source of all trouble and evil. Or he would be, if he existed. Which is most likelihood, he does not.


And just try asking god for answers...my guess is that he will be strangely silent.

[believerinchrist]

50. God made Satan with the freedom to choose,

just like He made us with the freedom to choose. In order for there to be a choice, there had to be an alternative to God. In order to create that alternative, God created a "place" where He was not (what we call evil). Satan was created to be the chief of the ways of God, but he became caught up in his own beauty, not in who God is. Satan chose to try to be like God and rule over his peers (because he thought he was so beautiful). When he made his move, Satan let go of God and of truth, life, love, and light; he ended up in the place of evil where there was deception, death, hate, and darkness.

When God decided to create our world, He went to the place of darkness, the place where Satan was ("And the earth was without form, and void; and the darkness was upon the face of the deep...Genesis 1:2). The first thing God did was to speak forth light. From that point on, God created a wonderful world and made good in the midst of evil. Of course, Satan was furious with God's invasion into his little kingdom, so he became determined to destroy what God had created. Now, God knew this would happen and warned Adam and Eve against what Satan was planning to do. Of course, Adam and Eve didn't understand the warning because they had no idea what evil was. In issuing that warning, God limited Satan's destructive power to the physical death of individuals. And, when Satan "succeeded" in conning Adam and Eve, God did not leave them alone.

Not only did God not leave the human race alone, but He also set in motion a plan to redeem the human race from evil. He was patient with the human race (and still is) and waited for individuals who would choose to seek Him, all the while limiting Satan in what he could do (see my previous posting on Job). When Jesus Christ came into this world because of the faith of a young woman, he was able, as a human being who was the righteousness of God in the flesh, to overcome the temptation that Satan brought to him. Jesus never let go of God--he never sinned--and he chose to pay the price of sin for all of us.

When we understand the love God has for each of us and when we turn to Him for knowledge, understanding, and wisdom, we will begin to see who God is and to overcome the evil that Satan brings to us.

And, by the way, I have pounded God with questions and demanded answers from Him, not from other people. My understandings have come from years of seeking Him and not accepting anything but logical explanations. Also, I have demanded that He show me how to live what I believe--I do not want to be a hypocrite! He has never been silent with me, and has answered or is in the process of answering all of my questions.

[Evoman]

56. I don't understand at al;

"Satan was created to be the chief of the ways of God, but he became caught up in his own beauty, not in who God is. Satan chose to try to be like God and rule over his peers (because he thought he was so beautiful). When he made his move, Satan let go of God and of truth, life, love, and light; he ended up in the place of evil where there was deception, death, hate, and darkness."

Yes, but god knew it would all happen. He set up Satan for the fall. He needed somebody to take responsibility for evil, so he created Satan, knowing Satan would fall. Doesn't that make you feel bad for Satan...I mean, when someone knows your future, and to some extent molds you and puts you in circumstances where you choose that future, what choice do you really have?


"When God decided to create our world, He went to the place of darkness, the place where Satan was ("And the earth was without form, and void; and the darkness was upon the face of the deep...Genesis 1:2). The first thing God did was to speak forth light. From that point on, God created a wonderful world and made good in the midst of evil. Of course, Satan was furious with God's invasion into his little kingdom, so he became determined to destroy what God had created."

Do you believe in genesis as it is outlined in the bible? Where was this darkness? Outer space? Where is hell now? Is it in the middle of the earth? None of this makes any sense...why would god not just make light where Satan was not. Is there limited space for god? Why prod and bother Satan even more. Isn't it enought the wretched creature got thrown out of heaven...now god has to torture him too?

" Now, God knew this would happen and warned Adam and Eve against what Satan was planning to do. Of course, Adam and Eve didn't understand the warning because they had no idea what evil was. In issuing that warning, God limited Satan's destructive power to the physical death of individuals. And, when Satan "succeeded" in conning Adam and Eve, God did not leave them alone."

Of course god abandoned them. He cast them out of the Garden of Eden and blamed them for their "sin". This despite the fact that these innocent creatures had no idea what evil was, and trusted everything in gods creation, including the Snake. What right does god have to get angry or sad, when he set up the game like he did. He could have made wards to keep out Satan, but he did not. He WANTED human beings to become corrupt.

"Not only did God not leave the human race alone, but He also set in motion a plan to redeem the human race from evil. He was patient with the human race (and still is) and waited for individuals who would choose to seek Him, all the while limiting Satan in what he could do (see my previous posting on Job). When Jesus Christ came into this world because of the faith of a young woman, he was able, as a human being who was the righteousness of God in the flesh, to overcome the temptation that Satan brought to him. Jesus never let go of God--he never sinned--and he chose to pay the price of sin for all of us."

Lol...the death of Jesus means nothing. If god has to impregnate a virgin with his own son, who is free from sin, then Jesus was not really a human being in the first place. And paying the price for sin...I just can't understand that idea. How does someone pay for your sins..the concept itself is ludicrious. Jesus, if he existed, died not to repay sins...he died, lonely on a cross, for no other reason that he angered the people in power. Besides, the whole thing is a useless complication. I mean, are you telling me that god, with all that power, can not forgive human kind their transgressions without torturing and killing Jesus. Is he forgiveness impotent? I mean, if my nephew does something bad, I can forgive him for it...without having to kill another person. I don't beat his sister, than tell him she took his punishment for him, and he is now forgiven. Please separate yourself from you religion for two seconds and look at this forgiven thing objectively..please, I implore you. You will realize that it makes no sense whatsoever.

"When we understand the love God has for each of us and when we turn to Him for knowledge, understanding, and wisdom, we will begin to see who God is and to overcome the evil that Satan brings to us."

People who love you do not send you to a burning lake of fire, even when you make them angry or disobey them.

"And, by the way, I have pounded God with questions and demanded answers from Him, not from other people. My understandings have come from years of seeking Him and not accepting anything but logical explanations. Also, I have demanded that He show me how to live what I believe--I do not want to be a hypocrite! He has never been silent with me, and has answered or is in the process of answering all of my questions."

So how have you gotten these answers. Seeing as how you said you don't pound others for questions, you must just sit in the middle of a room and just get answers directly from god. Or do you get most of your information from reading what other people write? Unless your actually hearing voices, then your not really getting answers from god. Your getting your answers the way the rest of us do...by building on the knowledge that human kind has accumulated.

[believerinchrist]

57. I only have time to answer one question right now and

that is your last one. No, I do not hear voices nor do I get information from what others say about the Bible. I have spent many hours reading and cross referencing the Bible. My objective has been to understand and live what I believe; the more I have studied, the more I have compassion, grace, and mercy for myself and others. I have done so because it has been what I wanted to do. I do not try to convert people to what I believe; I, like everyone else here, just share my understanding.

[Gregorian]

7. My belief has kept me from being violent.

For me, I sense a wholeness. I see how it all fits together. Not that it helps. To be honest, I'm actually at my final end of the rope now. Somehow after the life I've had, Bush and his crime friends have put me at a point where I don't want to be here any more. This is a new feeling for me. I'm not optimistic. I don't see a tomorrow worth living for. So how much can faith do? We're on our own, pretty much. But there is that ray of something. There is something that makes sense. What I'm saying is that despite the shithead who's chainsawing outside my windown on a Saturday morning, and the discovery that Bush, Lay, Blair are just cheerleaders for the bigger mob, and all of the rest of the shit like how we killed the native americans and speared the whales into extinction, there is some good. And that is the only part that keeps me going. I don't think it's belief. For me it is. I have put the pieces together. But for anyone who observes, they can see the same thing. It's there. It may not be helping us. I see this as a battle. The arrogant shitheads versus the kind and careful. No one knows. But we will. And I know which side I want to be on.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. Yes, there is good

it is like walking through the woods and finding a violet among the dead leaves. You have to look, but good is there.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. My belief has

seen my through very, very bad times. Personal crises, mental illness in my family, rancor, infirmity and death. Because I never felt alone. I always had someone to talk to internally, to "run things by" and work things out. I call that the Holy Spirit and it never, ever let me down.

My belief, however, has not freed me from my own personal challenge, morbid obesity. On the other hand, I have never approached it from a spiritual point of view, believing it is all about food in vs. energy out: pure science.

My religion (as separate from my faith) has provided me with musical and artistic outlets. For years I sang in the choir and we always had very fine choirmasters, usually doctoral students from FSU. I learned everything I know about music from them. It also inspired me to design and create (with my husband) large stained glass windows for churches. Church provided my children with routine and roots and it also gave me the closest friends I have in this town, which is not my "hometown."

Here's a picture of three of my windows. They are to the right of the altar in an Episcopal church in Tallahassee.

[kwassa]

10. Beautiful windows. I'd like to learn stained glass.

I was talking yesterday to a stained glass artist who wanted to do something with my students. I am sure I could learn something in the process.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. It is not that difficult to learn

but it is very exacting, which is difficult for an old painter like me. But that moment when you first lift them up to the light is very special.

[Proud_Democratt]

13. I spotted the Alpha and Omega symbols.

"The beginning and the end".

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. Yep

and in the middle is a chalice and ... um whatever they call the thing you eat at Communion. The wafer, I call it.

[kwassa]

20. We call it whole wheat pita

just joking.

Bread and wine. The body and blood.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Ours are whole wheat

when we are feeling very liberal and stuff. Mostly they are white things made by nuns.

[kwassa]

12. my belief has changed my life and made me a much happier person

Though it is a bit hard to describe. This belief also led my to my wife, to the best friendships and relationships I have ever had, to a sense of deep inner peacefulness "the peace that passeth understanding", and many untold other benefits. Mostly a sense of deep connectedness with the universe that I enjoy every day.

[Finder]

15. Made me more proactive...

rather than accepting things that bothered me as being "God's will." I do understand how belief can be a good tool for some but too many times has been used by tyrants of all stripes to keep people oppressed and apathetic to some terrible things.

[Silent3]

17. "What has it done for you?" is, of course, a poor metric

I believe or disbelieve a thing based on, well... how believable that thing is, how well something corresponds to known facts, how consistent it is with established patterns, how well it helps predict future events, how simply it explains other things without introducing extraneous detail.

What my beliefs "do for me" is hardly the point. Even if I knew belief in Santa Claus (Uh oh! not that comparison! ;) ) was going to cure me of cancer, it's not like I could flip a switch in my head and suddenly find Santa Claus believable just to receive the benefit of that belief.

A lot of people do, however, seem to belong to the "whatever gets you through the night" school of belief, and will quite unabashedly list the side-effect benefits of their faith/belief/religion/philosophy as their reasons for believing -- almost as if they are knowingly playing a game on themselves to get the comfort or sense of purpose or strength or feeling of community, or whatever other needs they're willing to see fulfilled via uncritical adoption of the most "efficacious" belief system.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. Your last paragraph

has me thinking. If a belief system provides one with comfort, peace, happiness, community then is that not a good thing for that person? I think that even if I were very certain it was all hogwash, but I got those benefits, I would "play the game" as long as it worked. Kind of like the technique of going to your happy place in order to escape anxiety. I know I am really not on the beach in Cancun with the gentle breeze ruffling my hair, but if it takes my blood pressure and breathing rate down..I'm there!

And I have come to terms with the Santa Claus analogy. I think it is perfect. He knows all, gives all. And you must be childlike to believe in him.

My belief system provides me with all the above and more, and while most of it is based on intuition rather than intellect, there are some aspects of it that I believe are decisions I have made to believe because of certain historical facts, scientific phenomena, personal observations, etc. I wouldn't dare go into them here because then I'd be put in the position of defending them, which I wouldn't do well. And I really don't need to do.

And if you KNEW belief in Santa would absolutely, no doubt, cure you... well, then wouldn't you already believe? (okay, that question almost fries my old brain so don't answer it!)

[Silent3]

30. Here, take some religion, it's good for you!

If a belief system provides one with comfort, peace, happiness, community then is that not a good thing for that person?

Maybe the problem is that I take the idea of religion more seriously than a lot of religious people seem to. Isn't religion supposed to be about The Big Picture, knowing (or at least claiming/pretending to know) something deep and fundamentally TRVE about the universe, not just a "hey, whatever works for ya" get-you-through-the-day kind of thing? Since people believing different, even contradictory, things often end of with the same benefits from belief, the fact that you're now off the booze or now feel like you've got a Higher Purpose in life can hardly be taken as evidence that it's the truth of what you believe in that made a difference, just the unqualified, hardly-matters-what-you-believe act of believing that made a difference.

You know, a placebo. Are you content with religion being nothing more than a glorified placebo?

I think that even if I were very certain it was all hogwash, but I got those benefits, I would "play the game" as long as it worked.

"Playing the game" and truly believing aren't the same thing. I don't think the full side-effect benefits of belief are going to be gained by mouthing prayers and going through the motions of rituals while thinking it all "hogwash".

And if you KNEW belief in Santa would absolutely, no doubt, cure you... well, then wouldn't you already believe? (okay, that question almost fries my old brain so don't answer it!)

I'll answer anyway. ;)

I pretty much already know something close to this -- many studies have shown real health benefits from religious belief. Not as dramatic as my contrived example, but the benefits are there. The reality of the benefits still doesn't make it seem any more possible for me to find any of those benefit-producing beliefs more believable. Another study I heard about once showed that people with the highest self-reported happiness were often mildly self delusional. Not off-their-rockers totally divorced from reality, but they tended to rate the importance of their jobs, the importance of themselves to other people, their standings in their families and communities, etc., higher than other people who knew them did.

It's not much of a leap to imagine that the benefits of religion are also benefits derived from self delusion, having nothing to do with any truth value inherent in the beliefs being believed.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. I think I must be in

the "doesn't-matter-what-you-believe" category.

I just know instinctively there is something. No proof. Maybe delusional; I am rather happy most of the time. I settle on the Christ angle because it is what was presented to me, but also there are elements that speak to me. Plus, I talk to Christ and He answers. Well, somebody answers. Could be Allah or Zeus...not really sure. Might even be Santa Claus.

I would be content with a glorifed placebo if it worked well. But you make a good point that if you know you are "just playing the game" it won't work. Placebos are like that.

Anyway, I'll say this about faith. Gives us an endless source of discussion and even flames now and then. Keeps life REALLY interesting!

[ulysses]

19. my doubt and I have an understanding.

I don't ask anything of it, and it continually asks things of me. :silly:

[SPKrazy]

32. My Beliefs Have Bought Me Time To Live

as I have what I believe to be a terminal disease for most who have it. (Look at the stats on alcoholism and most people die of their disease)

My spiritual beliefs that I've developed have helped me to not only not drink, but to live a life that was out of my reach prior to my quitting drinking (and using other things)

I consider myself a Christian, however, I am not a traditional Christian. I'm certainly not a fundie. But I do believe that there was either a man called Christ who was also God; a man called Jesus who was a great man, a spiritual man, who through the lens of post Easter is seen as also being God; or that the whole story is but a story about how much God actually loves humans that was written at the time it was written because that was the kind of story that people back then would understand.

The fact is, that all three of these explanations are compatable with my beliefs, as I believe that the ultimate teaching of the Christ story is that God loves all humanity, and that we cannot understand God, except to know that s/he (or sexless more likely) loves us. I don't know what God is, but I doubt it is ome gray bearded man in the sky.

God is more likely something unexplainable by our language or understanding of things at this point in time.

[NMMNG]

37. Losing my religion freed me,

but also gave me more responsibility. I've become able to see the dark side of religion as well as the positive. A deep spirituality has replaced my religiosity/theism. I no longer fear death but accept it as a normal part of the life cycle. (It's ironic that when I believed I'd go to "paradise" after death I feared dying, but now that I no longer believe in any form of afterlife I do not fear death.) I make a greater effort to help people, animals and the Earth than I did before, because I do not believe there is a God who is going to take care of things--it is up to me and other humans to do that. I also fight for Church/State separation, and equal rights for all believers/non-believers. Before I never gave a second thought to Church/State separation nor did I question the rights of people of other belief systems, I merely assumed they had the same rights as Christians. I now know better.

[Proud_Democratt]

38. Religion makes some people (not all) ...

very arrogant in their outlook on life. These arrogant folks tend to overlook anyone that may not share the same belief, have lower payscales, and alternative lifestyles.
Basically they just don't give a damn about you, unless they can use you. I say this because this stuff goes along with the arrogance. Self-indulgence, and self-importance seem to accompany arrogance also.

[NMMNG]

40. Indeed

They not only don't consider that others may not share their beliefs, but can't comprehend how others wouldn't want to share them. They think that those who think/feel differently than they do are inferior/defective in some way. As you said, they are also often ignorant about people having different lifestyles and being in different socioeconomic brackets (and not due to "laziness" either).

Republicanism causes a similar form of arrogance and desire to use people.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

48. Do you think religion "makes"

them that way, or are they stinkers to begin with and religion gives them a ready made weapon to wield?

And then sometimes it is just plain lack of intelligence, being unable to imagine that your life, your culture, is not everyone's life and culture.

[Proud_Democratt]

49. I think that it's mostly a trait of that person,

but some religions are supportive to arrogance. What I'm speaking of is , the arrogance that is totally opposite of humbleness.

[Random_Australian]

41. Atheism - Allowed me to become the best person I could possibly be;

It also has the highest statistical co-officient for improving society in my desired line of work.

Feel free to ask questions.

Please note that it allowed me, I do not think that this result would work well if you tried to expand it to the population in general, also remember that every population probability distribution curve has outliers.

[Evoman]

42. I don't think of belief or non-belief in terms like that

I want simply the truth. I find no truth in religion. In order to be convinced, I need evidence. Religion provides me with no evidence. If I cannot know the truth, then I prefer to say, "I don't know". I don't want made up stories. I simply can not believe in the bible, because its claims so far have been proven wrong. Like I've said before, if the bible is not right about the small things, (i.e. what are humans made of, and what are diseases), then how can you expect is to be right about the big things?

Does atheism have its benefits? Probably. For one, I have no anxiety about death, or sex for that matter. I always figured it would suck to believe in hell...and being afraid that you might not make it into heaven. You have to constantly be worried about being forgiven and not sinning..blah blah blah. I have none of those anxieties. When you know your gonna be worm food, its gives you a special freedom. And sex...again, no hang ups. I like sex, I have sex, and I don't worry about whether god gives a shit about me "gettin sum" outside of marriage.

[cosmik debris]

45. It saved me!

It saved me from cognitive dissonance, that feeling of discomfort you get when you believe something that is demonstrably untrue. My modest but useful critical thinking skills have allowed me to disbelieve. Sometimes people who are conditioned to believe don’t recognize the value of disbelief, the freedom from irrational or delusional ideas.

[Dervill Crow]

58. I've met some great people.

I've admired certain people who were Christian and so I tried that. It gave me a good framework when I was younger, but after reading through the Bible a couple of times there were a lot of questions it didn't answer so I kept looking.