Bible Stories

[HeeBGBz]

I don't know about you, but I was raised in a fundie household. I didn't know thats what it was at the time. Sunday School every Sunday through my formative years until I hit a rebellious stage. While I believe Jesus was a special soul, I no longer have any religion that I claim. Still the things I was told remain in my mental storage bin. It helps sometimes when I deal with radical fundies who just assume I'm a godless heathen who has never darkened God's doorstep. I don't take everything at face value or "literally". I feel its much symbolism with pieces of truth remaining.

Some of the stories are pretty wild. Some stories inspired my questioning mind which always made my teachers squirm. "Did Jesus have a girlfriend?" I guess it made ssteach reflect on Jesus in a romantic light and surely damned her to years of guilt.

Anyway, sifting myth from truth is always a challenge. Viewing symbolism and trying to understand the the "point" supposedly made. Some of the symbolism sounds more like a bad acid trip.

I really don't know where I was going with this except I started out thinking of some of the bizarre stories and which ones do you take at face value or which do you not? Like Methuselah who lived 969 years supposedly. Did he age slower or did he get old and feeble at 90 and go to a nursing home for 879 years? Or did he find the fountain of youth? Or was it merely a scribe transcription problem?

[xfundy]

1. Similar story here.

Then I realized most of my questions were being answered with, "there are some things we can't know till we get to heaven."

No wonder fundies and fascists hate "intellectuals." Thinking is dangerous to their worldview (or, more appropriately, the worldview they insist on forcing onto others).

[HeeBGBz]

2. Exactly

That's why you can't argue with them. They don't listen. Tune out. Anything that differs from the agenda is from Satan. Doubt is Satan's WMD.

[Warpy]

3. I've found the words quoted in Matthew and Mark, as well

as in the suppressed gospel of Thomas to be incredibly inspiring, but I reject the whole myth, especially the Romanized part where he got kicked upstairs to be a god. The problem with kicking him upstairs like that is that it relieves his followers of the necessity of taking his words seriously and trying to live them. They just aren't practical for human beings, you see. He only said that stuff 'cause he was a god.

I find the Old Testament to be a Bowdlerized history of a nomadic people who were starting to settle down and turn to agriculture; not much use as historical fact, but very useful for the mythic foundation of our culture. Plus, some of the stories are wonderful, especially when you read between the lines and you know that a lot of it got cribbed from the Sumerians.

If the fundies have been good for anything, they've caused a lot of people to start asking questions about what a Christian really is, whether idolatry of riches and power can ever be considered Christian and whether or not a cafeteria approach to Leviticus can ever equal morality.

It will be interesting to follow the debate as it progresses.

[LearnedHand]

4. How could we ever know?

Most stories in christian writings began as oral stories; "truth" in oral cultures doesn't EVEN resemble "truth" in literate (i.e., having writing) cultures. The stories oral cultures told, even if the stories were based on "true" events, bore much more weight than simply the recitation of facts. They had to inform and teach; they had to weave a rhythmic pattern of sounds so many generations could remember the stories and pass them down; and they had to carry the important moral lessons to teach younger people.

Confession: I am particularly biased against christian stories, and the whole protestant/catholic ball of wax is completely, forever contaminated, as far as I'm concerned. Nevertheless, given that most biblical stories were handed down for multiple generations, given that what we now read are translations of translated translations of oral stories, it's hard to imagine that any of them could literally have happened.

Some stories are very beautiful, and I'd like to believe some are true. I suppose it's a bit easier for me to take some of the NT accounts of Jesus' life as approaching historical "truth," but even there, I can't be sure.

[Enquiringkitty]

5. It's nice to know you guys are out there.

For the most part, I run into fundies everywhere I go. Everyone says I'm nice and fun ; so open minded and understanding until they find out that I decided not to be a christian when I was 30. My mother was very upset (she is one of those who believes the Bible WORD FOR WORD). She asked me if I believed in anything and I said, "Of course!". I believe in much of what I was taught in the christian church, just not the myth and "interpretations". I look at joining a religious group just as I would look at joining and other group or club. What is their history? What are their members like? What do they give to society? Have they harmed anyone? I didn't like any of the answers I came up with to those questions.

[Dead_Parrot]

6. Methuselah

>Like Methuselah who lived 969 years supposedly. Did he age slower or did he get old and feeble at 90 and go to a nursing home for 879 years? Or did he find the fountain of youth?

Ginseng. Works wonders, you know. Although I hear he wasn't very popular with his pension company.

[clydefrand]

16. Just think what the repugs would do about Social Security

if we had life spans like Methuselah! I'm almost 64 and I can hardly move some mornings. What must it have been like during those days? And they didn't have Tempurpedic mattresses in those days. :-(

I think Senator Byrd might be close to him. Just teasing. I love and respect the good senator from WVA!

[EC]

7. I was raised Catholic

the first time I went to my Mom's Baptize Church, it scared the hell out of me....I did read the Bible, old and new, and all the children's Bible story books --but once I grew up I liked this one better:

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[kweerwolf]

8. 'Logos' vs. 'mythos'

One of the best books I've read that helped me clarify the fundamentalist point of view was Karen Armstrong's "The Battle for God" that traces the history of fundamentalism in all three monotheistic religions. It's a bit slow going to get through, but very informative.

Basically, she says that fundamentalism is a reaction to the Enlightment and a movement opposed to modernism. For many fundamentalists, their beliefs fill a gap left by modern secular societies that might otherwise be filled with nihilistic despair. Even the original writers of the Bible and their early followers knew that a great deal of the Bible was not to be taken literally. Then understood that faith was made of of both 'mythos' (the more universal 'mythic' elements that transmit culture - think of some of Joseph Campbell's works on 'heroes,' for example) and 'logos' (the 'rational side' of religion, such as what Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, etc., actually taught about how we should conduct our lives).

Unfortunately, fundamentalism insists on a literal interpretation not only of the 'logos,' but of the 'mythos' as well. For some, the idea of having scripture that they can believe as absolutely literal relieves them of having to think for themselves in a secular world.

[PaganPreacher]

14. You referenced one of my favorite authors!

Armstrong's A History of God has a proud place on my bookshelf.

I especially like her examination of Psalm 82, using one of the "unauthorized" translations ("Yahveh stood in the Council of the Gods"), and the Dead Sea Scrolls' Deuteronomy 32: 8-9 (When El, the Father of all gods, divided the earth into nations according to each land's god, and gave Israel to Yahveh- whom the Jews and Christians know as "God.")

It really opened my eyes!

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[Stunster]

9. Many Christians reject Biblical fundamentalism

For example, it is explicitly rejected by Catholicism (see below). If you have problems with fundamentalism, then why not try to look at some recent mainstream non-fundamentalist but still Christian approaches to Scripture? A good Catholic exegete is Raymond Brown (e.g. his magisterial INTRODUCTION TO THE NEW TESTAMENT).

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5247

Pastoral Statement for Catholics on Biblical Fundamentalism

Archbishop John Whealon of Hartford, Connecticut, chaired the ad hoc Committee on Biblical Fundamentalism of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops which issued this statement on March 27, 1987. It is designed to assist Catholics in understanding the problems caused by fundamentalism. Here are some extracts:


This is a statement of concern to our Catholic brothers and sisters who may be attracted to biblical fundamentalism without realizing its serious weaknesses....

Fundamentalism indicates a person's general approach to life which is typified by unyielding adherence to rigid doctrinal and ideological positions -- an approach that affects the individual's social and political attitudes as well as religious ones. Fundamentalism in this sense is found in non-Christian religions and can be doctrinal as well as biblical. But in this statement we are speaking only of biblical fundamentalism, presently attractive to some Christians, including some Catholics.....

A further characteristic of biblical fundamentalism is that it tends to interpret the Bible as being always without error or as literally true in a way quite different from the Catholic Church's teaching on the inerrancy of the Bible. For some biblical fundamentalists, inerrancy extends even to scientific and historical matters. The Bible is presented without regard for its historical context and development....

We do not look upon the Bible as an authority for science or history. We see truth in the Bible as not to be reduced solely to literal truth, but also to include salvation truths expressed in varied literary forms.

We observed in biblical fundamentalism an effort to try to find in the Bible all the direct answers for living -- though the Bible itself nowhere claims such authority....

People of all ages yearn for answers. They look for sure, definite rules for living. And they are given answers --simplistic answers to complex issues -- in a confident and enthusiastic way in fundamentalist Bible groups.....

We need to educate -- to re-educate -- our people knowingly in the Bible so as to counteract the simplicities of biblical fundamentalism.

[kweerwolf]

10. Just curious ...

In light of this statement:

Fundamentalism indicates a person's general approach to life which is typified by unyielding adherence to rigid doctrinal and ideological positions -- an approach that affects the individual's social and political attitudes as well as religious ones.

how does that square with some bishops suggesting that pro-choice politicians should be denied the sacraments? Doesn't that seem to be the same sort of "unyield adherence to rigid doctrinal and ideological postions" that the pastoral statement decries?

Not being a Catholic, it always seemed to me that there were two Catholic churches. One tended to me more conservative and dogmatic while the other seemed to be more lenient on doctrinal issues.

[Stunster]

11. As a matter of fact

the vast majority of Catholic bishops did not go along with the suggestion that pro-choice politicians should be denied Holy Communion.

The media of course ignored this fact to concentrate on the few who made noises along those lines.

The authoritative statement on the matter had already been issued by Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in a letter sent a in June to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. He concluded: ''A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate's permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.''

[kweerwolf]

12. Thanks for the clarification, Stunster

I appreciate the information since I hadn't heard anything much in the media about this since the whole "Kerry can't take communion" controversy during the campaign.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. The weirdest stories are in Genesis

and it is believed that the first five books were compiled from other sources and from the oral tradition after the return from Babylon in order to facilitate the re-formation of Jewish identity.

[PaganPreacher]

15. Some great Bible stories....

1. Genesis 6: "Sons of God" mate with human women, and produce giants. (Also referenced in 1 Enoch 6.)

2. Genesis 19:30-38: Lot's daughters get him drunk and have sex with him.

3. Genesis 38: Tamar seduces faher-in-law Judah in order to have children (the "Harlot by the Side of the Road" in Kirsch's book.)

4. Song of Songs- (yes, it is a "story"): One of the world's great erotic texts, and a fantastic foil to prudish fundies. Build a fire, share a few glasses of wine, and read it aloud with a dear lover. You can truly "find God"!

Song of Songs 4:16 (feminine voice): "Blow upon my garden, let its fragrance be wafted abroad. Let my beloved come to his garden, and eat its choicest fruits." (She ain't talking about having lunch out in the back yard!)



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.