Do you believe the Messiah is coming?

[BurtWorm]

If you do, what does "Messiah" mean to you? Do you think the Messiah's coming is imminent?

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Yes.

I believe that there will be another coming of Jesus.

[BurtWorm]

5. Have you thought about when that might be?

Do you think Jesus is the Moshiach referred to in Isaiah, or is he something else?

[Midlodemocrat]

16. I don't know, to be honest.

I do believe that Jesus will return to earth, but the rapture stuff makes me a little queasy. I haven't really looked into it as much as I should have, I am afraid, but I do believe that he will return.

on edit: What are your thoughts, BW?

[BurtWorm]

17. I'm an atheist

I don't believe in the idea of a messiah. I don't believe in the human-centered cosmic drama that Christians, Jews and Muslims, for example, believe in.

PS: But I'm interested in what others believe. I'm not out to convert anyone or mock anyone. I'm genuinely curious about what people believe. This was inspired by a remark caller on C-SPAN made yesterday about how the Bush administration should humble itself with respect to Europe "or Jesus won't come back." That seems like a strange concept to me. But then the idea of a messiah is a strange concept to me.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. As an atheist

do you not believe in a concept of a higher power at all?

I believe because I was raised to believe, but also I pray fervently for peace, etc. and to perhaps bring some peace of mind to myself, as well as others who are bereaved.

PS: I am also interested and would never, ever mock your beliefs. I am genuinely curious. I had a similar conversation with a southern baptist recently, just trying to understand why they believe the way they do.

[BurtWorm]

24. I'm not sure what "higher power" means.

So I can't say I believe in it. I don't believe in the supernatural. That is, I believe that everything in the universe is IN the universe and subject to physical laws. I don't think there needs to have been a lawmaker or creator first. I don't think there has to have been one. I don't find this "emptiness" as a spiritual person might call it, discomforting. I find it kind of peaceful in a strange way.

[Midlodemocrat]

25. I guess by higher power

I mean the afterlife. That is probably the most accurate description of what I believe.

I have suffered a great deal in the last few years with untimely family/friends deaths, and I don't think I could take it if I didn't believe we would see each other again, in whatever capacity that might be.

[BurtWorm]

26. I'm sorry for your losses.

While we live, it makes sense to believe in an afterlife, because life is all we know.

Personally, I believe that when we die, all our consciousness goes the way of our flesh, so it won't matter to us if there's an afterlife. The only afterlife I believe in is the one that goes on when we're no longer alive to partake in it. I find that comforting, oddly enough. Sad, in some ways, true. For instance, I was sad to think my father wouldn't see the turning of the millennium. I thought he got gypped out of life a little on that score, even though I knew 2000 was just an arbitrary number assigned to that year. On the other hand, he was fortunate enough to miss the Bush II era. Similarly, I feel that when I die, the party is over for me, anyway. But I firmly believe it won't matter to me.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. I agree that it won't matter to me when it is over.

but just enduring the sorrow we have endured over the past few years has been almost more than I can bear. If I thought, even for one moment, that I wouldn't 'see' these people again, I don't know...

I believe in this because at this point in my life, I have to in order to go on. I hope I am right, but when the time comes for me, it won't make a difference to me, just to those I left behind.

[BurtWorm]

28. I am really sorry for your losses!

Did I say that? I mean it. Death is so much harder for the living to bear. :hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

29. I appreciate it.

It has been a really difficult couple of years. Hoping 2005 will be better. Thanks.

[stevebreeze]

67. As an agnostic I KNOW there is an 'afterlife" of sorts.

We all live on in the things we accomplish. In the things we have taught others and genetically for those of us lucky enough to have children.

As to a higher power that is easy too. There is a higher power then the individual, there is all of us.

I am not anti religious, religion has helped many people mitigate their actions when nothing else will. I will not however tolerate the imposition of others religion into my life. I do not in fact believe that religion is what drives the religious right. They are not using religion as a tool but rather as a weapon to silence those that may disagree with them.

[ananda]

6. Yeah, Jesus!

Doesn't Bush believe he is the new messiah? At least, he looks to be making the biggest mess out of America that I could imagine.

Sue

[fertilizeonarbusto]

2. No

I'll shut up now, so as not to offend.

[stopbush]

3. Sounds like a Jenna Jameson flick...

[BurtWorm]

7. "Oh, Messiah!"

:o

[Dead_Parrot]

31. Nah...

...He couldn't rise again for three days...

<Ducks>

[BurtWorm]

34. He rose

with a little help from Pfizer. ;)

[Semi_subversive]

4. Yes, and he's really gonna be pissed!

[Stand and Fight]

8. No. n/t

[apple_ridge]

9. Uhhh....I thought he was already in the WH.

[woodsprite]

19. I'd term Bush more the antichrist than any kind of Messiah. n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

10. No.

But IF She comes, and if there is a RAPTURE, Bushie and his Fundie buddies including Dobson and Falwell will be sitting in their cars stuck in traffic.

[Wisc Badger]

14. That would not surprise me at all

[Roland99]

11. Where's the "HELL NO" option?

[Canuckistanian]

12. If there is a messiah, he better show up soon.

Humans are in a lot more trouble than 2,000 years ago. It's about time to show his face again and clear up once and for all who the rightful God is.

[Burma Jones]

13. I sang it last Month and will sing it December 2005

Messiah comes around every year you know............

[kwassa]

20. Me, too! Where did you sing it?

Surely! Surely!

He hath borne our grief .....

[Burma Jones]

21. And Stop Calling Me Shirley.........................

I'm with the National Philharmonic Chorale in Montgomery County Maryland. I'm a first Tenor. My wife is a first Alto. Our kids don't like it when we sing.................

[kwassa]

33. um, I sing with you .....

I am a first bass and my wife is first soprano, I think. Stans the man!

I am currently taking a hiatus through the Ode To Joy, however, due to work demands. I'll be back for the Mozart Requium.

How do you like the Strathmore?

[Burma Jones]

58. Like it just fine, better than Whitman

Boy, we're just a vast left-wing conspiracy here in MOCO...........

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

63. wow! Too cool! Enough good music could heal the world. Keep it up, n/t

[Zeke]

15. Bad Fruit...

The fruit is on the tree.

Matthew chapter 24 says it all, and yes, when
He comes, Bush Inc.'s gonna get it.

[Acryliccalico]

18. No n/t

[More Than A Feeling]

23. I do, but I don't think anyone knows when

so there is no point in worrying about it other than to live each day as though that night your soul will be asked of you.

[supernova]

30. Don't know

when that will be, but we also have the responsiblity to create the Kingdom right here and now, as much as we can. It's a copout to say "I'm waiting for Jesus to return."

Disclaimer: By "kingdom" I don't mean the "god is coming and he's pissed" variety, but a loving, caring society.

[Dookus]

32. No...

nobody's coming to save us. We have to do it ourselves.

[Stunster]

37. If so, I'm not hopeful we'll succeed

In saving ourselves, that is.

My reason for saying so? Just a well-founded inductive inference.

Then there's all the people who've already lived and died. How are we going to save them?

In the Creed, we say "He will come to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end." I do believe that. However, I think the 'coming' referred to need not be an event in the spacetime of this universe.

[Dookus]

38. well

I didn't mean "save" in the salvation of souls sense. I don't believe in souls.

I meant we're responsible for ourselves and our actions, and if we fuck up enough, we'll just die as a species.

[Tux]

76. Save ourselves

Looking at the teachings of Sidhartha and Jesus, one can find a way to relieve suffering and create a peaceful society that is open to all. They gave us the methods, it's up to us to use them. Especially now which reminds me of this quote from The Return of the King that is so fitting.

"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day. This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

[Sympleesmshn]

35. Yes

A Messiah will come...who knows when though, I heard maybe in the next 5-10 years(from the Bible code, watch for a peace treaty in the Middle East). I am not worried though because I am doing my best to be good and ready at any moment. I believe deeply in my faith, and others can take it or leave it, I say who is to say I am right and you are wrong, we may never know the answer.

[boomboom]

36. Yes

If you believe in heaven or hell, eternal life or damnation, the New Testament, you have to believe Jesus is returning. Bible prophecy has been 100% correct so far. If you don't read or believe in the Bible, that's your prerogative.

[Dookus]

39. Bible prophecy has been 100% correct so far?

really? How about when Jesus "prophesied" that he would return within the lifetime of the people he was addressing?

[boomboom]

40. Hmmm, did he say that?

Do you have a scripture reference for that?

[Dookus]

41. a few

Matthew 16:28

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 9:1

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

*******************************************

The claim that bible makes 100% accurate predictions is very easily debunked. It's a claim made only by the most extreme biblical apologists.

[boomboom]

42. Death

In this context means they will not be judged until the final judgment. It is a given that all of us, believers or not, will die in the flesh. Jesus is saying that of those that believe, there will be a resurrection of the fleshly dead. This is not saying this will happen before the original apostles die. If that were true, then the book of Acts, where Jesus asks his apostles to spread the word and build his church until he returns would be moot. Death means eternal separation from God. Until we see the kingdom of God, only our flesh is dead.

[Dookus]

43. I suppose

if you change the meaning of words, then yes, you're right. This is the tactic used most often by biblical apologists.

Why would he say "some" instead of "all"?

[boomboom]

45. Because not all believe n/t

[BurtWorm]

55. "Until we see the kingdom of God, only our flesh is dead."

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

65. bogus, it's all so bogus, and, I used to tolerate it better

I used to tolerate the bogus religion thing better than I do now. The mayor and his wife used to come to dinner, and insist on holding hands and praying before dinner. I just put up with it. It sort of felt they way you feel when you bring the kids to see Santa at the mall, as if you are humoring their little fantasy. So, I used to humor their little fantasy. But now that christo-fascisim is sinking in, I find that I can't invite the mayor and his wife to dinner anymore, I have had to sweep all the ultra religious types who I used to tolerate completely out of my life. I just can't stand by and allow all their silly delusions to become laws in this land. Their absurd marriage protection acts. My marriage isn't in any danger. I don't care if two lesbians do get married and buy the house next door. I will still not be leaving my handsome husband to join them. And their nonsense anti abortion posture. It is not the government's business to tell women what to do with their own bodies. If you don't like abortion, don't have one but get your religion off my body! Rapist fascists. Now in Virginia there is a bill in the State House making it a felony if you have a miscarriage and don't report it as a "fetal demise" within 12 hours. That's just bullshit, and we have christo-fascism to thank for it. Then there is the "faith-based initiative" which robs the tax coffers serving up Jesus with the soup in the only soup kitchens there are, and at the same time, these enormously wealthy tax free organizations called churches engage in politics from the pulpit. These bastards swore poverty and greedily amassed glutinous wealth, then took tax free status, then played politics. Fuck 'em and the cross they road in on! Baby, I am pissed! Now I feel I was wrong to ever be silently tolerant of the bogus god delusions going on around me. I will no longer socialize with persons who are not quite sane. Some of the friends I dumped for being delusional ask me when we can get together, when I see them around town. I am always very, very busy. So sorry.

[wtbymark]

74. Bravo!

[boomboom]

44. But even more

With regard to prophecy, the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah have all come to pass. So many of the Book of Revelations have also come to pass. There are volumes and volumes of work tracing the prophecies of Revelation and the end times. And it is amazing how precisely it happens. The only variable is the timing. Anyway, given the chance to believe or not, I choose to believe. That doesn't make you or me better. Just a choice.

[Dookus]

46. believe whatever you want

but if you researched a little, you may find the prophecy accuracy rate is not quite what you've been told.

edit: Also, how does one "choose" to believe something? I simply don't believe the Bible is divinely inspired. How could I choose to change that belief? I believe what I believe and I don't see how choice plays into it.

[boomboom]

47. You may be right

I've only been "studying" the Bible for the past 5 years. I do tend to believe by faith what is says first, without researching the facts. I do know the percentage of proof of prophecy is enough for me. And I have to tell you, this comes after 30 years of questioning. So, yeah, you're also right, I do sound a like an apologist. But the definition of apologist is proof of fact. My underlying question to agnostics or doubters, always, is why not? What better alternative is there to believe?

[Dookus]

48. Ah, Pascal's Wager

that if you're right you gain something. If you're wrong, you lose nothing.

There are a few problems with it, first and foremost is what if you believe, but believe wrongly? What if the mormons are right? Are the hindus? Or the any of the thousands of other religions that come along?

And what do you lose? Well, the truth.

[boomboom]

49. Please believe me

And I've never said this out loud before......but I occasionally wonder what if?

However, God doesn't resent questions from those whose heart love Him. So, I give my questions to Him. And believe in His ability to guard my heart.

Again, what is the hope of any other alternative?

[Dookus]

50. Why must an alternative have hope?

What's wrong with simply accepting what is?

There are many beliefs that can be comforting, but it doesn't make them true.

[boomboom]

51. Because.....

At the simplest level.........reminding that this is my opinion.......

What justifies our entire existence, our entire struggle here on earth, whether it be to make a better world, accumulate mass assets or power, be kind or forgiving or recognize any other motivation besides survival.....unless we're given hope that transcends all our earthly, this life, success. I'm a financially successful, non power motivated female with no children. (I am too old too reverse that conscious decision to have children or not.) Why in the world would I exist if not to glorify God? I have struggled and fought and bettered myself. I have argued and demurred and justified. My life, which is totally relevant, has no meaning unless I believe this life is not the end of my person. How do you justify anyone's life if this time on earth is all there is?

[Dookus]

52. I don't

justify my life or anything else. I just don't feel it's necessary.

Seriously, I have absolutely no existential anxiety about believing that when I die, that's the end of the game. In fact, I have argued for years that "eternal life" would be absolutely horrendous. After a few trillion years, you'd plead with your god to kill you.

There were billions of years where I did not exist. I don't recall feeling any pain over that fact. I was not hurting, I was not lonely, I was not sad.... I just didn't exist. And some day, I won't exist again. That fact doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[aneerkoinos]

56. Person

You give the impression of sincere seeker, therefore I indulge my own view in the hope it will do more good than harm.

>>My life, which is totally relevant, has no meaning unless I believe this life is not the end of my person. How do you justify anyone's life if this time on earth is all there is?<<

That is the question, existential angst, the Koan of Western mind. Yet, mystics in all religions say that it is the Ego or Person (which comes from the Latin for "mask") is what stands in between, makes us separated from God, Compassion, Kingdom, Natural State or what ever you call it, makes us ignorant. Question about justification for existance is created by the very separation, only illusion of separateness needs to pose the futile and endless questioning about it's own justification - because it is an illusion. Truth and Love come naturally when the question has burned itself away, when One learns to let go of it.

[BurtWorm]

57. "How do you justify anyone's life is this time on earth is all there is?"

That's a very interesting question. From my perspective, to "justify" this life by appealing to an unseen, unproven supernatural one is denigrating to the only one we know. This mystifies me about Christianity in particular. For all the talk of the glory of God's creation, Christianity seems to be all focused on the unproven promise of life after death. What if there is no life after death (which seems a very likely possibility given the lack of evidence for it)?

Karl Kraus, a Viennese aphorist who lived around the time of Freud said "You don't even live once." That's frighteningly true, I'm afraid.

[aneerkoinos]

54. Kingdom of God

Gospel of Thomas makes clear what Jesus means by Kingdom. It is not anything external in time or place, but present - we are just blind to it. Kingdom is realized when we make external and internal one, it is the holy union, enlightment. Christ-nature, Buddha-nature, the natural state which is free of ignorance.

What Jesus is saying here is simply that some among the audience will become enlightened in this life.

Literally minded worshippers of earthly, divisive power naturally wan't to interprete everything according to their divisive, powerhungry and fearfull analogy, their own ignorant state of being.

[midlandsdawg]

59. Let me answer it this way

As a preterist, he did return within their lifetimes. Or, as we preterists like to say, "what part of soon don't you understand"

[Dookus]

61. LOL..

I'm not very familiar with "preterism". Can you expound a bit?

[midlandsdawg]

62. It is

the believe that Jesus came as he said, within the apostles lives. 68 AD precisely. Little hard to get into specifics here, have yahoo messenger?

[FloridaPat]

53. Already came is 1863.

[midlandsdawg]

60. nope

but make that 68 AD and I am with ya!

[aneerkoinos]

64. Well

I would pick the year 1945, on strong grounds. That is the year when Nag Hammad texts were found, including Gospel of Thomas, the most authentic source on Jesus' teaching, and Christianity has been in turmoil ever since.

[ezekiel333]

66. Well said. n/t

[midlandsdawg]

70. I would say

68 AD mainly because that is when armies gathered at armageddon, the mount by the way, and destroyed jerusalem as predicted.

[Taverner]

68. Nope - I'm a preterist

That means, no tribulation, no rapture, and that Revelation occurred in 90 AD aka the Destruction of Jerusalem. The book was a code from Roman Christians to their counterparts in the city.

It also means all will go to heaven, and that hell is a spiritual death in this lifetime, brought on by sin.

In addition, I also believe Man is not the Apex of evolution - rather one step on a journey of many.

[midlandsdawg]

71. You mean

70 AD

[ulysses]

69. we could ask him.

I thought I saw him posting in GD the other day.

[struggle4progress]

72. The Coming of the Messiah (Franz Kafka)

The Messiah will come as soon as the most unbridled individualism of faith becomes possible - when there is no one to destroy this possibility and no one to suffer its destruction; hence the graves will open themselves. This perhaps, is Christian doctrine too, applying as much to the actual presentation of the example to be emulated, which is an individualistic example, as to the symbolic presentation of the resurrection of the Mediator in the single individual.

The Messiah will come only when he is no longer necessary; he will come only on the day after his arrival; he will come, not on the last day, but on the very last.

http://www.bradcolbourne.com/messiah.txt

[Dcitizen]

73. His spirit always presents every Xmas and comes at apparition sites.

That's enough for me.

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. If you're confident of the Second Coming, you could clean up

(if you think money will have any meaning if it happens, of course). William Hill offers odds of 1000 to 1 on it - the Archbishop of Canterbury is the judge.

http://www.williamhillmedia.com/index_template.asp?file=3862

You only get 500 to 1 for the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.

[sakabatou]

77. I think...

religiously he'll come, but not in the near future.