The Pope Asks: How Could God 'Tolerate' Holocaust?

[truthpusher]

This struck me peculiar...why is the Pope talking like this...is he doubting his God? Why is he not asking the same question about Iraq, Darfur...etc....what about the millions dead of Aids and the role that the church has played?

----------------------------

here is the story:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060528/D8HT21CO0.html

Pope: How Could God 'Tolerate' Holocaust?

By VICTOR L. SIMPSON

OSWIECIM, Poland (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI visited the Auschwitz concentration camp as "a son of the German people" Sunday and asked God why he remained silent during the "unprecedented mass crimes" of the Holocaust.

Benedict walked along the row of plaques at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex's memorial, one in the language of each nationality whose members died there. As he stopped to pray, a light rain stopped and a brilliant rainbow appeared over the camp.

"To speak in this place of horror, in this place where unprecedented mass crimes were committed against God and man, is almost impossible - and it is particularly difficult and troubling for a Christian, for a pope from Germany," he said later.

"In a place like this, words fail; in the end, there can be only a dread silence, a silence which itself is a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did you remain silent? How could you tolerate all this?"

(snip)

link: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060528/D8HT21CO0.html

[ananda]

1. And God asks Maledict:

How could you tolerate anti-Semitism during those shameful times?

Where were you when Jews were taken and put on the trains?

What were you doing when smoke was coming out of the ovens?

[Xeric]

2. It is a duplicitous statement

Seems to me he is deflecting the responsabilty of the German people by indirectly blaming God. Somehow if God had intervened the German people would not have done this. And then the question is why didn't God intervene. The subtle suggestion is perhaps the Jewish people somehow deserved their fate.

[truthpusher]

3. Yikes....

...do you really think that is what he was after? Directly at least?

[G2099]

5. Yes, I think what #2 is saying is what the Pope is saying

[Ian David]

4. I dunno, Pope Ratso... I think Gawd may have had help...

Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.

Don't blame it on Gawd. Blame it on His followers.

Is the New Elected Pope a Nazi ?
<snip>

Nazi Field Marshal Hermann Göring (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol.9)

Adolf Hitler was a Catholic

Heinrich Himmler was a Catholic

Reinhard Heydrich was a Catholic

Joseph Goebbels was a Catholic

Rudolf Hoess a Catholic who as commandant at Auschwitz-Birkinau pioneered the use of the Zyklon-B gas that killed half of all Holocaust victims, had strict Catholic parents.



Signing the Concordat is Cardinal Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII). Standing at the far right is Vatican prelate, Montini, later to become Pope Paul VI.

"Why, it has been asked repeatedly, did the Pope not utter a solemn denunciation of this crime against the Jews and against humanity? . . . Why, it has been demanded, did he not give a clear moral and spiritual lead to Catholic priests throughout Europe? In June 1941, when the Vichy French government introduced ‘Jewish laws' closely modeled upon the Nuremberg Laws, the Pope responded to appeals from French bishops by stating that such laws were not in conflict with Catholic teaching. Later efforts by the British, Americans and Poles to persuade the Vatican to publish a specific condemnation of Nazi extermination of the Jews fell on deaf ears. The Pope, came the reply, could only issue a general condemnation of wartime atrocities."

"A strong and openly voiced papal line might have silenced those Catholic bishops throughout Europe who actively and fervently collaborated with their Nazi masters. . ." —Ronnie S. Landou, The Nazi Holocaust, pp. 216-217.





Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935


Hitler greets Müller the "Bishop of the Reich" and Abbot Schachleitner


Hitler Greets a Catholic Cardinal



Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler (Joseph Goebbels is far right)

MUCH More:
http://www.kjbbn.net/is_the_new_elected_pope_a_nazi.htm

See also:

<snip>

What is troubling about Pius's preocuipation with diplomacy is that Jews would continue to be murdered as peace negotiations were underway. . Pius knew this, of course. A high-ranking official in the Papal Secretariat of State, Monsignor Domenica Tardini, told the German ambassador that the United States would probably object to Weizsaecker's (latest) proposal for negotiations because of the 'Jewish matter.'

The difficulty with Pius's inadvertence to the Holocaust lies in the fact that Catholics in high and low stations kept reminding him of it. The most persistent of these was Konrad Preysing, Bishop of Berlin, who wrote to Pius thirteen times in fifteen months during the most active period of the Holocaust. When Pius finally responded to his friend from the Weimar era, it was not the fate of the Jews but the fate of Christendom and of the Church that preoccupied him.

While the Vatican showed keen interest in getting the perpetrators of the Holocaust freed, and, as we have seen, had to be restrained by its trusted envoy Bishop Muench, it showed little or no interest in the question of restitution for survivors of the Holocaust.

As did most Italians, Pope Pius sought to save native Italian Jews during the Holocaust, but he did not allow the Jewish tragedy to upset his world vision which remained fixed on his church and the Marxist danger.

If the Holocaust was not sufficient cause for Pius to break with Germany during the war, it is not surprising that antisemitism, restitution, and strict justice for war criminals would not be his priorities during the Cold War.

More:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/catholic.shtml


See also:


THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH'S ROLE IN THE NAZI HOLOCAUST
http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol12.htm


Old news? Water under the bridge? No, I don't think so...


Pope John Paul II Continued to Support the Nazi Ante Pavelic

Croatia, Oct. 3, 1998


Pope John Paul II beatified Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac at a huge open-air service at the shrine of Marija Bistrica, the most important place of pilgrimage for Roman Catholics in Croatia. This is the final step to making him a saint in the Roman Catholic Institution.During World War II the Independent State of Croatia was to be 100% Roman Catholic. Anybody not conforming was to be totally liquidated.

More:
http://www.kjbbn.net/is_the_new_elected_pope_a_nazi.htm

[beam me up scottie]

18. Nice work, Ian.

I don't think Ratzi is a Nazi but then again, he doesn't need to be.

Millions of people will suffer and die from AIDS because of the policies of the Vatican.

He had the opportunity to reverse the trend and did nothing.

Hitler would be proud.

[Ian David]

19. Stabilizing population and fighting AIDS is counter to The Vatican's goal

... which is the same as the Bush Administration goal: de-stabilize the world to create the chaos and strife necessary to set the stage for The War of the Apocalypse.

[saltpoint]

6. The Pope said, "In a place like this, words fail..." He is right.

I personally believe he is wrong on many positions, on women's rights generally and their appropriateness for the priesthood in particular, and this Pope's position on lesbian and gay rights does not appear to be appreciatively different from his predecessor's.

While I vehemently oppose his positions regarding women and gay rights, his appearance at Auschwitz very likely was an effort to universalize the push toward reducing anti-Semitism, felt by many to be alarmingly on the rise in Europe.

It's interesting that the Pope's visit to a death camp to acknowledge the horror of the Holocaust comes the same week Iran's Ahmadinejad pronounced the Holocaust a fiction.

Would that more light could be generated by this Pope on women's rights and lesbian and gay issues, but it is important to remember that acknowledgment and communication and respect between Catholics and Jews has not always been the norm, and that this thin strand of light is light nevertheless.

Seeds grow toward light. Their path is easier with more light, but a little will do for the time being.

[beachmom]

7. All interesting points, Crusoe, but . . .

That doesn't say much when you're the POPE, and you can only say "hey, at least I'm better than that crazy Iranian president". Andrew Sullivan (so sue me, I read him -- lately he's been right 50% of the time overall) had a smackdown of the pontif, for which I have say I agree with, and that's coming from someone who is Catholic (excuse me, WAS Catholic) AND who's spouse is a German:

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/05/benedict_at_aus.html

I was unimpressed by his speech. It was a function of resilient denial - denial that the German people had en masse backed Nazism long after its true nature had become known; and denial of the criminal silence and acquiescence of the Vatican hierarchy during that period of time. Money quote about the Germans:

"It is a duty before the truth and the just due of all who suffered here, a duty before God, for me to come here as the successor of Pope John Paul II and as a son of the German people -- a son of that people over which a ring of criminals rose to power by false promises of future greatness and the recovery of the nation's honor, prominence and prosperity, but also through terror and intimidation, with the result that our people was used and abused as an instrument of their thirst for destruction and power..."

The Germans abused by the Nazis?? They created, empowered and were the Nazis. Then this:

"Constantly the question comes up: Where was God in those days? Why was he silent? How could he permit this endless slaughter, this triumph of evil?"

How about a simpler and more accountable question: where was the Church hierarchy? Where was the Pope? That is neither rhetorical nor unanswerable. And where is the expiation of the original sin of Christianity - anti-Semitism - that played a part in preparing the way for Nazism? Why was Benedict silent? Even today?

He is certainly quite harsh here, and I'm not saying Benedict had to word it like Andrew. But what about some humility? What about talking about at least the FAILURE of the German people to FIGHT BACK against those committing evil acts in their names. Pathetic is what I think of Benedict. I'm not as anti-Catholic as some of the other posters. Just disappointed in the Church.

[BayCityProgressive]

8. The Catholic Church

always backs opression whole heartedly. when it becomes unfashinable they denounce it and move onto a new oppression. That Catholic Church is quickly falling apart and this is exactly why.

[saltpoint]

12. The Church is under great strain, yes. But it's definitely not

falling to pieces.

The Protestant Reformation knocked its butt for a loop too, but the Counter-Reformation was formidable.

If the Catholic Church finds the will to make internal shifts in its strategies and philosophies, as it has done effectively in the past, it can overwhelm history itself by ordaining women.

That one act would become the spiritual headline of institutional religions across the globe, overnight, and it would have great staying power.

No indication so far of any will to do any such thing. But the prize is there for the taking.

[saltpoint]

11. You know, if there were a legal mechanism for suing you for reading

Andrew Sullivan, I would pursue that path post haste!

Talented writer, but widely distrusted in gay and lesbian circles for his rightwing positions.

He hints at key objections to Benedict, but misses on the main one, and that is that the Pope, rather this Pope especially, is / is not in denial. Resilient or otherwise.

As a non-Catholic, my interests in the Pope's visit here is to see if anti-Semitism would be a possible beneficiary. In my opinion, it is. The less of anti-Semitism we have the better I like it. I'm not Jewish either, by the way, but it brings us full circle to express support for reducing Anti-Semitism, as its direct opposite produced the camps.

I don't buy that "the German people" equals the Holocaust. That's way too broad a gap for me there. Persecution is a trait of hyper-nationalism, yes, but it is the trajectory of political power into unswerving fascism that produced the Holocaust, not national identity. The persecution of a lone individual in China or Bolivia is also facism.

Andrew Sullivan?!? NO. You can't read him anymore. That's an order.

[beachmom]

14. Ha, ha!! Look -- for me Sullivan is like lifting weights

It makes you develop your rebuttal muscles against those who were for the Iraq War and want us to continue to stay there. He also has some viewpoints that are largely in line with liberals on subjects like torture, civil liberties, gay marriage, the religious right, unchecked executive power. And . . . I sent him a Kerry quote once, and he used it. I have no illusions that he has drunk the Kool Aid, and he'll always be more in line with the GOP, but his blog is an excellent resource for many subjects, like this one for instance. For me, I always want to read at least one viewpoint that is truly and honestly for this damned war, so I'm ready for the arguments. And, he is very honest that Iraq is a bloody mess, so that's something. And he did endorse Kerry in '04.

Re: the Holocaust -- there are big debates among historians on who bears responsibility for the Holocaust -- some do blame ordinary Germans, others less so. But Benedict's statement was too much on the other side, acting like Germans had NOTHING to do with it, which is a lie.

[saltpoint]

15. OK. I'll leave you and Andrew to your work-out! LOL!

[drduffy]

9. How does God tolerate the Pope?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. So there, Ratso, if God can't tolerate it, then...

ummm, it didn't happen?

Is that where this soft-on-Nazi shitheel is headed?

[Disturbed]

13. "Why was God silent'?

God stopped his meddeling on this planet right after Jesus rose up into Heaven. Before that God actively participated in helping the Jews escape from Egypt by bringing forth all kinds of nasty events upon the Egytians, like creating a locust spree,killing their firstborn and parting the Red Sea thus killing troops. The God of the OT was real helpful in killing people on the Jewish people's behalf for centuries. He helped them with their wars of conquest.

Since Jesus left, God has been inactive. Maybe he moved on to other parts of the Universe?

[shain from kane]

16. Ratso says, "I'm walking here! I'm walking here!" Surely, not in

the footprints of Jesus.
It's Judgment Day, Mr. Pope. Show some guts, and send those Nazis to Hell.

[TreasonousBastard]

17. I suppose we'll have...

another half dozen or so Pope-bashing threads on this before it's forgotten.

As I mentioned in another thread, the Pope is simply voicing an ancient, and very traditional, lamentation about how God seems to forget his creation at times.

Demanding of God that he demonstrate his will in these horrors is not excusing human guilt, or even the place the Church had in assisting Nazis back then. It is accepting our guilt, and demanding of God why he allows us to remain guilty of so many crimes.

Yes, it would be nice to talk more about relating the past horrors of Auschwitz to the present horrors of Darfur, but that is rarely the point of religious leaders making the pilgrimage to Auschwitz, which often tends to be more political than spiritual. It is also often an attempt to ask God's forgiveness for any complicity in that particular crime.

Popes have often complained and preached about Bismarck, Stalin and others, but the answer has always been "How many divisions does the Pope have?"

When confronted with such Hobson's choices as what to do about Hitler, the Pope knows exactly how many divisions he has. And, no matter what the Church says, is perfectly capable of making enormous mistakes in judgment. Mistakes that should be understood, but not taken to blame the present church.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

20. Well, the point of Christianity is that we should

not be making these "beseechments" nor following false prophets (profits!?!) like Popes and such.

Well, at least that is my opinion.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. That's not exactly the point of...

Christianity, although avoiding false prophets is an admonishment.

I don't think all that much of popery myself, and the Catholic church does have much to answer for, but modern Popes are the spiritual leaders of millions and just blindly bashing them doesn't seem to have much point in itself.

[ladjf]

22. The more important question is "How could the Catholic Church

have tolerated the Holocaust during WWII"? The German Gvt. is planning to release documents that will show that the Pope Pius made secret deals with Hitler". The recent trip by the new Pope to Poland is an attempt, in my opinion, to head of criticism when the released German documents are published.