I can understand rejecting Christianity...

[Yollam]

...or Islam, or any of the other Abrahamic religions. Personally, I have no need and little tolerance for magical mumbo-jumbo in my life. But most people seem to have a psychological need for the "spiritual" in their lives, so I can kind of even understand going to Buddhism or another philosophically-based quasi-religion.

But I must say that I am mystified by all the people in recent years, mostly on the left, who have migrated to "Wicca". Of course they have every right to do do so, just as the Christians etc. do, but why revive a dead religion? Most of the people I've known who were into it were kinda hippie-ish, or kinda goth-ish, people who get off on "Renaissance Faires" & the like, in other words, it all seems like a bit of a pose, a way of saying "I'm a part of something other than contemporary western culture", which implies it's not so much about faith, as it is about a kind of cultural identification.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but I don't get it. I don't get why we need MORE religions in this country.

I don't get why as a liberal, I'm supposed to pretend that Islam is a nice religion, when mainstream Islam and fundie Islam are both quite oppressive and misogynist in nature, and the liberal factions are still the exception to the rule.

I just plain don't get religion in general, or why anyone would want any part of it. It divides people and is such a drag in general. I've been to Christian, Jewish, Buddhist and Islamic religious services, and the one thing they all had in common was that they were all BORING AS HELL.

I understand the fear of death and the desire to believe in an afterlife, to see one's loved ones again in another world. I feel that too, but I don't need it boiled down into any kind of orthodoxy or mythology. A vague idea of what might be is enough for me.

But 95% of all humans around the world participate in this sort of thing, so it's obviously me, and other atheists that are the oddballs. I just wish I could understand this drive to participate in this stuff.

The closest thing I ever feel to "spirituality" is just looking at my children when they are sleeping...

[MercutioATC]

1. I'm not a Wiccan but I don't see their beliefs as any less valid.

Actually, I'm agnostic (or athiest, depending on your definition). I really don't get hung up on the label.

Christians believe in an invisible, unprovable being that demands recognition on pain of all sorts of horrific things....but he loooooves you.

Wiccans believe (with great differences) essentially the same thing, without most of the "smiting"...AND they value nature.


If I had to choose, I think Wicca would be the most palatable choice.

[Yollam]

2. Yes, I find wiccan beliefs very inoffensive...

...although Buddhism is probably a little more compatible with my thinking, because it requires less of the symbolism and ceremony. I just wish I could understand the common human drive to want to participate in religion.

[MercutioATC]

6. I think it's the human need to rationalize.

It's our nature to NEED to answer questions. If we don't have the real answer, we make one up (remember the rotation of the Earth being explained as "a god riding his firey chariot across the sky")?

A lot of people are VERY uncomfortable saying "I don't know"...so they make up reasons.

[libhill]

3. I understand

why you are mystified by religion and peoples need for it. I'm agnostic myself, and I really don't concern myself much with what I consider to be superstitions. As far as Wicca goes, I believe that's a form of nature worship, not completely unlike Deism.

[dysfunctional press]

4. i hear you...to an extent.

i am NOT a "spiritual" person in any sense...i believe in that which is real and tangible, and cannot understanfd at all how any rational adult can actually believe in the existence of a supreme being, let alone one that would deserve any worship or respect on our part.

i don't have any kids- but given how many people animals and insects do, i don't really see how they can be classified as the "miracle" that many people claim.

[libhill]

5. Let alone

a Deity who supposedly created this vast universe and everything in it, yet can only feel validated by the worship and subservience of the puny beings on this insignificant speck of dust, in an insignificant solar system. Go figure...

[dysfunctional press]

11. and...

to use the christian model most of us are inundated with- this same supposedly "loving" deity is also prepared to send your eternal soul to eternal damnation for even some of the smallest infractions- and which they/he/she/it have designed human nature to go against.

not to mention- anger, wrath, jealousy, arrogance, cruelty- supposedly "supreme" beings generally have a lot of very human failings.

how do people buy that shit?

[libhill]

17. I've often pondered that myself -

when you compare Greek - Roman myths with Bible God, there's not a hell of a lot of difference. Other than the fact that the ancient Greeks and Romans had a whole pantheon of gods, whereas Bible God claimed to be all by his lonesome -

[shadowknows69]

21. He wasn't alone

He had a son, a concubine, an adversary that ran the underworld, twelve apostles, multiple prophets, several hero kings. Religious plagiarism anyone?

[libhill]

29. Right

you should check out www.jesusneverexisted.com for a very elaborate, and sometimes humorous, take on all of that. It's a real eye opener -

[dysfunctional press]

24. not completely alone...

there's still satan the fallen angel...the other angels and archangels(?), and the 'holy ghost' whatever the hell that is...and then he went and chose to have a kid out of wedlock.

[Yollam]

10. They're definitely not a "miracle"

but they do have a powerful hold on their parents. They have a transformative power over us. I'd walk over broken glass for my kids. They drive me crazy and exhaust the hell out of me, but I'd literally die to protect them. I would not die for any nation, but I would definitely die to save my kids.

[dysfunctional press]

14. i'm kinda like that with my cats...

until they reach the $1800.00 lifetime veterinary tab threshold, anyway...

i suppose it's a good thing i've remained child-free.

[Mythsaje]

7. I know a lot of neo-pagans...

Offended a few a little with my representation of the "Gods" in my first novel. None of my personal friends, thankfully, but... :shrug: It's okay. Fundies of any stripe won't like my work. I just wish I could convince a few to stage a book burning. :evilgrin:

I think ALL revealed religion is bullshit. Not to say that I don't believe in a spiritual side of things--I think the universe is a complex and magnificent thing, and I'm not willing to say with any certainty that I do or do not believe in divinity. Wrote a rant on this some time back...think it's in my journal, actually.

[Patsy Stone]

8. People need to believe

They need to believe they are here for a reason. The best marketed reason is religion. It's easy, ready-made and seems to be a crowd pleaser.

[shadowknows69]

9. My opinion as a Pagan

I think a lot of people are indoctrinated to religion. It is obviously a huge piece of our society. I think a good 85-90% profess some kind of religion simply because they feel they're are supposed to. I started out as a Methodist because it was my mother's church. Moved by choice to a Baptist church for a while and then to an Assemblies of God church. Then I discovered wicca. I pursued spirituality originally because I was told its what we do like many. I discovered soon after that I had a longing to learn the mysteries. To touch the unknown and the divine. Each progression in my spiritual path was an extension of this. The Methodists were good christians but I was young and it bored me. I went to the baptist church because a friend was there originally but it was there that I was taught the truly supernatural side of the Bible as the emphasis was on end time prophecy stuff. When I was first told by a friend about Assemblies of God and regular happenings like speaking in tongues and faith healing well I was sold. I had many mystical experiences in an out of the church those days but the ministers were starting to contradict themselves. I was being told that any experience I was having outside of the realm of Jesus was of course of Satan. In my heart I knew this to be untrue. I knew that mankind had the ability to touch the divine or pierce the mystical veils within himself and there could be nothing wrong with that which is of our essential nature. Wicca afforded that to me without judgment and with actually more caution than christianity ever taught me. Wicca respected the forces of nature that the divine set in motion just as much as The All itself because they were inseparable from each other. I realized that whatever "God", The All, The Divine is, it is something far beyond any human comprehension and that is why we ascribe human avatars for it. Wicca definitely did appeal to my "hippie phase" but it was it's basic truths and tenets that kept me a follower. I don't call myself a Wiccan much now because my path is ever fluid it seems. To answer the question why religion or spirituality? Hamlet said it best: "There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophies". Some of need to learn what they are.

[Yollam]

16. Interesting...

Your path took you from one religion to another to another. I was raised in a very secular way, and have continued to eschew religion as an adult. My wife is a devout buddhist, and a lot of the Americans in her cult came from Christianity or Judaism or whatever. Don't know many ex-atheists among them.

It kinda seems like either you're into religion or you're not. You can switch brands, but people seem to stay on on side or the other of the atheist/religious line.

I do respect your journey, but most of the things you're talking about sound like Greek to me. The concept of "Satan" for instance, or humans being inherently good or evil are almost foreign to me, since we are really just animals still trying to overcome our baser natures.

But I have to admit, America would probably be much better off if all the fundie "Christians" converted to Wicca right now.

[shadowknows69]

19. Much of why I rejected Christianity

was because the whole concept of "Original sin" and Eternal damnation didn't really gel with the lessons of a lot of the rest of the book. I don't recall Jesus ever giving Dante's description of Hell. Satan as a concept never made sense in the context that if God was this perfect infallible being then how is it one of his creations let a revolt against him. Again the mythology all religions have come into play here. Wicca didn't arrogantly claim to be the only path to enlightenment. Quite the contrary, its tenets tell us to be tolerant of all other beliefs because we acknowledge that they are all separate paths to a common center.

[Canadiana]

12. I hear ya

I don't get it either. How or why do people "know" THEIR religion, and every rule and ceremony and detail is the RIGHT one. It makes little sense to me. I don't know why people cling to religion...I just don't get HOW they know this is the way to heaven or paridise...or wherever.

That being said I DO believe there is a higher power...something supernatural if you will. Something separate from the space/time continuum. I am a scientist, and many things, especially the human body, are too complex to have formed randomly in my opinion (and in many other's opinions). I do not believe this power is all good in any way. I do not know if there is an afterlife (how COULD I? How can anyone?).

[Yollam]

18. I don't believe there is a higher power, but I do hope for an afterlife...

But the more I read a given religion's tracts, the less I can believe in it. So I try not to read it. In this case, ignorance is bliss for me.

[libhill]

27. Reminds me of that old song

something about, "Well, I hope there is a heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell, but I'll never know by livin', only my diein' will tell". I think that pretty well sums it all up...

[davidinalameda]

50. it's called faith

I don't get it either. How or why do people "know" THEIR religion, and every rule and ceremony and detail is the RIGHT one. It makes little sense to me. I don't know why people cling to religion...I just don't get HOW they know this is the way to heaven or paridise...or wherever.

I don't "know" that my religion is the right one for anyone other than me

Jesus taught us two things--Love God and love your neighbor as yourself

I do both because they are right for me

If more of us loved our neighbors, this world would be much better

[Solon]

13. Couple of things, first I'm Wiccan, second it wasn't ever a dead religion.

OK, let me explain, Gerald Gardener created the religion in about the 1940s or so, published in the 1950s, he claims that he learned the religion from a coven of Witches who date their beliefs back thousands of years. Most Wiccans today take this for a grain of salt, the religion is one of many other religions of the world that borrowed some of the beliefs and practices from older, pre-Christian religions. Its a specific religion with specific beliefs and practices, problem is the "fluffbunny" syndrom, the Goth and Renaissance faire types(though I like the faires myself, jousting ROCKS), anyways, most of the time, these are teenagers who, more or less, burn out on it, and either cool down on being "different" or simply find another spirituality that fits them best.

Granted, in many cases, this isn't the case, Goths, as a general rule, rock themselves, I know, used to hang out with a LOT of them, and they were all Christian, but liberal Christians. Best way to tell if you meet a fluffbunny is when they mention they follow the "Olde Religion", consider this a red flag in the fact that they know nothing about the religion itself, but instead take some of the symbology, misread a book, and claim to be Wiccan. You can't tell I'm a Wiccan just by looking at me, as an example, I where blue jeans and t-shirts, weather permitting, only thing that's a tell is my small Pentacle I wear. Hell, there is even a Wiccan that serves as an attorney that argues First Amendment cases before the Supreme Court.

[shadowknows69]

15. Love this quote

"The closest thing I ever feel to "spirituality" is just looking at my children when they are sleeping..."

And I think you answered your own question. Could you live long without some form of how looking at your children makes you feel? There's a great song called "Heaven" by the Pittsburgh based band Live.
The chorus is:

"I don't need no one to tell me about heaven. I look at my daughter and I believe. I don't need no one to tell me about God and truth. I look at the sunset and I'll be saved."

I was absoutely sure there was a God when I saw the sun set into the Pacific horizon on the top of Mount Tamapalas in San Francisco. I believed before but somehow that solidified it for me.

[kineneb]

20. thoughts

Hmmm....

Religion gives some people a framework within which they feel their existence has a significance. If Wicca floats their boat, good for them.

As for the "Renaissance Faire" types, not all are Wiccans. Several of my friends are Jewish converts, some are Catholic or Protestant, and many are not at all religious. Me, I was raised nominally Methodist, my step-father is Muslim, I play a Catholic knight's wife at our Faires, and am Buddhist.

Elizabeth, Lady Kytson, (NorCal faires) at your service.

[Yollam]

22. Just don't make me drink "mead"

:puke:

[shadowknows69]

25. mmmm mead

n/t

[kineneb]

28. don't drink "on job"

Character actors generally do not drink "on the job" if they are smart. It leads to dehydration and other problems. As to mead, definitely not at a Faire. Perhaps a non-alcoholic beer (electrolytes), soda or gatorade, and lots of water. The weather is usually quite warm for clothing from the Little Ice Age.

Lady Kytson has no desire to get sloshed while wearing all of those clothes (full Court Elizabethan outfit: corset, hoops, wool dress with trimmings).
"Now good sir, why ever should I desire to make myself quite ill? I do believe that thou hast been about in the sun o'r much."

[shadowknows69]

23. OMG how many holidays do you get?

j/k
hail and well met milady.

[kineneb]

31. which ever ones I want!

I like Midwinter (Christmas), as musician it can be profitable on occasions, as well as fun-lots of cool Renaissance music. The family also celebrates Nou Rooz (Persian New Year) big time. And birthdays tend to be big with us. Islamic holidays are generally gloomy, so Step-Father, who is not devout, tends to ignore them. He is the one who is constantly cutting a taller Christmas tree every year- last year it was 22' before it got trimed to fit in their house. I don't think any of the family does the Ramadan fast. Mom channels Martha Stewart and decorates the house for all major Western holidays.

[noahmijo]

26. Well for starters Wiccans have been around far longer than Christians

at the bare minimum there existed civilizations of people who were held beliefs very similar to those of Wiccans.

What we need less of is people using religion to influence others, religion needs to be an entity to be used as either a justification to help others or as a private spiritual escape NOT to influence politics, law, or ways of life when concerning other people.

[RoyGBiv]

30. Clarification ...

"Wiccans" are a modern creation.

The source of many of their beliefs pre-date Christianity by centuries.

I know that's pretty close to what you said. I'm just quibbling with the subject line.

[libhill]

34. Well,

They've been doing it for four thousand years...at least since the early Sumerian temple rackets, run by the local priesthood. And who was that early Medieval Pope, who stated: "What great profits hath we not derived, from this fable of the Christ?" Religion is about money, power, and control over the masses. End of Story.

[NMMNG]

46. ......

What we need less of is people using religion to influence others, religion needs to be an entity to be used as either a justification to help others or as a private spiritual escape NOT to influence politics, law, or ways of life when concerning other people.


Indeed. :applause:

[RoyGBiv]

32. Perhaps ...

Assuming the premise is true for the sake of argument, perhaps the reason is because the basic philosophy of Wiccans restores the idea of essential equality among the sexes. That's not to say that males and females don't have different roles, rather than both are important, and neither is necessarily dominant.

That's a fairly progressive attitude.

[TahitiNut]

33. "A vague idea of what might be is enough for me."

Good. That's spirituality, imho. Welcome to the human race. Who's winning? :silly: :dunce:

I really don't think there is such a thing as an 'atheist' but I respect the rights of others to to believe otherwise. I personally don't accept the notion of dogma - and often think that the label 'atheist' is used to describe anti-dogmatists, both by themselves and by dogmatists. While I respect the rights of any person to ascribe labels to themselves (name themselves), I don't really respect any purported 'right' of one person to impose a label on another. To me, 'personal freedom' includes self-identification and integrity is a measure of the honesty with which that's accomplished and fairly communicated in agreed-upon terms to whatever degree is consistent one's personal claim to privacy.

I regard myself as spiritual, believing in some inarticulable (in any language) Grand Is, a fundamental and all-inclusive sub-stratum (or super-stratum) upon (or within or beneath) which all phenomena exist (or can exist in any probabilistic sense - all possibilities), including Time itself... and including Passion itself.. Beyond that, all else is guessing and abstraction.

I believe we can have some inarticulable experiences that give us an inner 'glimpse' of the nature (essence?) of the Grand Is - I use the label 'transcendent' to make references to that experience. Other labels I've shared the use of in making reference to such an experience include 'sartori,' 'ego death,' 'Nivana,' and 'Christ consciousness.'

But that's me.

I also believe there are more 'religions' than there are people - and the obsession with partitioning them into clusters according to some sense of similarity or difference is like engaging in developing a taxonomy of drops of water in the oceans of the world. It has little to do with spirituality and everything to do with politics.

But again, that's me. :shrug:

[crispini]

36. Allow me to make...

an inarticulate expression of the awesomeness of this post. :toast: :yourock:

[TahitiNut]

37. (blush) (grin) Namaste, my friend.

Sometimes I accidentally(?) wrestle the words into some order that gets a bit closer to what I mean than other times. When I reread it, I guess a few minutes ago was one of those times. :dunce:

(I sure wish I could find out how to make my trains of thought run on time. I never seem to be able to read the schedule.) :silly:

:toast: :party: :hi: :headbang: Let's party on, dude(tte)!


On edit: I'm guessing you 'got' some significant part of what I described. So, let me share with you the one verbal/visual symbol(?)/representation of one of the 'glimpses' I've experienced to varying degrees - perhaps deceptively simple.

Please note that the (inferred) punctuation, if any, is entirely up to you and can be anywhere at any time. The geometry isn't arbitrary and the components (prose, yin-yang) are consciously mundane. It's the best I've been able to do yet in forming any such visual/sybolic. (I'm sure no artist.)

I think of it (waggishly, of course) as a "Hot Dog Vendor experience." :dunce: :silly:

[beam me up scottie]

38. That's right. We're just figments of our own imaginations.

Thanks for allowing us our delusions, whatever they are.:patriot:

[TahitiNut]

39. Ubetcha, Neo. I wouldn't ever presume to be Morpheus.

:silly: :evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

40. So tell me, why don't I exist?

I have seen no evidence of deities, am I to assume you have proof of them?

[TahitiNut]

41. Dunno. Perhaps you haven't found the right kind of 'mirrors' yet?

It's your path, grasshopper. When and if you run into Buddha on that path, be sure to kill him. :silly: :dunce:

Happy journey!

"Fish will be the last to discover water." (Einstein)

[beam me up scottie]

43. Only one box quickly ate the green mirror.

:P

[TahitiNut]

44. The cat politely ate the secret candle.

:rofl:

[NMMNG]

47. Wow

I really don't think there is such a thing as an 'atheist' but I respect the rights of others to to believe otherwise.

I guess all 205.1 million of us are just figments of our own imaginations. :shrug:


I personally don't accept the notion of dogma - and often think that the label 'atheist' is used to describe anti-dogmatists, both by themselves and by dogmatists. While I respect the rights of any person to ascribe labels to themselves (name themselves), I don't really respect any purported 'right' of one person to impose a label on another.


You just did.

[TahitiNut]

55. If you say so.

:shrug:

[Random_Australian]

48. No atheists? ARE YOU COMPARING ATHIESM TO SANTA CLAUS?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Anyway (seriously for a second), how about throwing me some reasons why I am not an atheist?

And finally, getting right back into the silly mood:
There is no spoon inarticulate experiences!
I believe that photosynthetic magnetic killer badgers lead to global warming! All else is just SPECULATION! :silly:
You shall not want command atheists not to change and tack on unnecessarily long bits on after deleting one word! :D

[TahitiNut]

53. In a rather surreal sense, yep.

Glad you enjoyed it. :hi:

[Random_Australian]

63. Quit holding out, man! Chuck us some reason why there are no atheists!

:D

[varkam]

51. No atheists?

But...but....we had an evil posse and everything! Hell, we even just decided on theme music!

[TahitiNut]

54. "we"? Oh, goodie.

:shrug:

[varkam]

57. Well it takes more than one to make a posse...

especially an evil atheist posse.

[manic expression]

35. A lot of things here

First, just about all Wiccans are NOT reconstructionists, meaning they do not claim or try to emulate the ancient practices or faiths. Secondly, those reconstructionists are "reviving" paganism the same way people "revived" the teachings of the classical philosophers. There is nothing wrong with taking things from the past and putting them to use today.

On Islam, it is a very nice religion. The way it is applied can be pretty screwed up, but if you use that logic, you could say that science is bad because of eugenics or because of nuclear war.

So you find religious services boring? That's nice. I guess it isn't for you and that's that.

It's not about a fear of death. Many religions look at death as simply another part of existence, some go as far as embracing it.

You aren't an oddball, you're just satisfied with what you feel. That's it.

[Proud_Democratt]

42. I never understood this need either. Maybe I'll start my own

religion. If it's not mainstream it would be considered a cult...something negative.

I think I'll just stick to "trial and error". I'm not afraid of stumbling....nor too proud to stand back up, on my own.

[Der Blaue Engel]

45. I am an atheist and a pagan

And while that may sound like a contradiction, it works just fine for me. I don't "need" religion, I just like the ritual and the female power affirming aspects of paganism. I'm most certainly not "posing" either. If people think my pagan tattoos and jewelry are some kind of pose, well, that's their problem. They are symbols that have meaning for me and I don't particularly care how they are perceived by anyone else.

I haven't seen anything that can convince me there's any kind of external deity in the universe. I believe in science and nature, and the "divine" in all life. But I feel like I'm connecting more with my inner self and with the mystery of nature when I tune into ancient pantheist (and especially goddess) imagery; my "spirituality" is about Jungian archetypes.

As for why more left leaning people gravitate toward Wicca or other forms of paganism, I think it's because these religions are more truly rooted in acts of kindness toward others, respecting others, and taking care of the weakest among us. Most brands of Christianity claim to be about this, but most of us who've been there know it's bullshit. (Which is not to say that there are no Christians who practice a truly Christ-like form of Christianity, but in my experience and the experiences of most people I know, they are rare.)

[Yollam]

49. I don't doubt your sincerity.

And even those who are more transient devotees are probably fairly sincere in the moment, but I suppose that the reason I see it as something of a "pose" is that there is so much symbolism & ritual, and that unlike unlike most religions, it hasn't been passed down from generation to generation. It's a cultural tradition being adopted mostly by white, middle class people who are unsatisfied with the hollow teachings they were given by their mostly Christian parents. While I do see Wicca as a much preferable religion to Christianity, I guess I'm puzzled that even though people are independent-minded enough to make that break from the religion of their parents, they still feel that need for ritual or religion, or whatever.

But thank you for your explanation. You acknowledge then, that the religion is not as much a depiction of reality but an homage to universal psychological constructs?

[Der Blaue Engel]

58. I can say that that is what the practice is for me

I suspect it is the same for many, but certainly not all practitioners.

I don't get involved with any organized groups unless it's for a big party or something, because I don't believe in dogma, and I don't fit in well with people who do.

[Withywindle]

61. The break I made was different.

I was raised in an atheist family - my dad's a pretty hard-line antitheist, my mother still has some vague spiritual beliefs but vehemently rejected the Catholicism she was raised in.

They never took me to church; I've never seen my dad set foot in one. I went with friends sometimes out of peer pressure because it was impossible to be a kid with a social life where I lived if you didn't, and besides, I was curious. Forbidden fruit and all that. :D

I even went to some Pentecostal services, and oh Someone, I FELT something. I always had. A sense of wonder. A sense of awe. A sense of something much much much bigger than myself that I couldn't understand, but was part of anyway--and always had been and always would be. But the particular type of ecstasy I felt with at that church was frightening and violent and confusing, not kind or wise at all. I knew I wanted more of that level of feeling, but the sort of spiritual feeling I really wanted was what I felt when I was alone in the woods.

So when I learned what Wicca really was, in college (not an ancient religion--as someone said upthread, more of a literary creation; a reconstruction by Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente, who had some old lore and some skill with meditation and visionary qualities, and made a workable system out of it)--well, that was it. Because it was a way to actually learn how to understand that feeling a little bit, and nurture it, and commune with it, and give back to it, using my little corner of it as a force for "good" (my values, which match Wiccan ones very well) in the world.

So there you go. I can't explain to my dad why I want this. He can't explain to me why he doesn't. Took us about 10 years to finally realize we weren't budging by arguing about it, but at least he's glad I'm not a RW Christian. :)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. Watching your children sleep is the pinnacle

of spirituality!

I have kind of an interesting take on Paganism. And I might get slammed for it.

I think that many people who are genetically bound to the British Isles are turning back to their heritage. This includes the Celts and Anglo Saxons. There is a sense that Christianity is too global, too foreign. Also, in recent years those with British heritage have taken a lot of scorn for whatever reason...being the majority "old white guys" etc. And this is a positive thing, I believe. It is always a good thing to celebrate your own origins and be proud of them.

Of course there are many Wiccans of all races and ethnicities. But this is my very subjective impression.

[Yollam]

60. That's actually a very interesting take.

I've actually gained a lot of insight into Wicca from this thread.

[Withywindle]

62. That's a thought I've wondered about...

I'm half mostly-Irish North American Euromutt, and half mostly-Portuguese South American Euro-Nativemutt, and I've visited some of my ancestral homelands and there is something that calls. It's very intense and it's very primal - you just know that (part of) you are HOME.

The thing is, as far as I can tell, I have no ancestry from the Middle Eastern desert climates where the three big Abrahamic faiths come from (well, except in the sense that we all come from the same place--Africa--if you go far enough back).

And honestly, the mythology of that climate--with the all-glaring sun, the dry land, the ascetic dunes, the dust...I don't relate to it the same way I relate to the myth-stories that come from the cool green islands in the mist, or the combined Indigenous-African-Catholic saint stories that came together in the lush green seacoast of Brazil. Or the folktales of the green mountains where I grew up, for that matter (which were largely Irish and Native American in origin anyway).

I don't really believe in universal religion. I think--now, mind you, speaking as a Pagan who believes very much in local spirits and local energies--that a lot of the way Spirit talks to us has to do with the geography and nature of what we know and where we and our ancestors have actually been. That is NOT to say an American can't be a sincere Tibetan Buddhist or a Japanese person can't sincerely be called to Santeria, or a Kenyan can't develop a personal relationship with Odin, or what have you...absolutely not, Spirit is a mystery, and it has the power to call to anyone in any way.

But it does seem strange that any one regional faith should be expected to apply to the whole world. It's why I think proselytizing is wrong (and the more aggressive it gets, the wronger it is). I believe the Earth is diverse and we are diverse for a reason. I believe there is an ecosystem of Spirit, and it should stay in balance, and no one force should ever completely dominate.

[ozone_man]

56. Perhaps because it's spirituality is derived from nature?

I don't know much about Wicca, but I think along with Paganism, Pantheism, Deism, it's spirituality is derived from nature, so it's much more natural than the monothiest Abrahamic religions. I think some enjoy the ritualistic aspect of practicing a religion such as Wicca, while others are content with enjoying spirituality in nature apart from any religion. I am of the latter category, an atheist who feels a sense of awe in nature, but sees no deity or supernatural force behind it. It just is and we get to make the most of it, enjoy it if we can, sense it's beauty and contemplate it's mysteries.

[AnnieBW]

59. I'm A Wiccan And Former Catholic

For me, the Catholic Church that I was raised in was bloody boring and more interested in telling me what NOT to do rather than live my life. I like to joke that I attended "Saint Teresa of the Bored Caucasian". I grew up reading mythology, sci-fi, fantasy, etc. I saw the beauty and divinity in nature, not any building. I tried Fundamentalist Christianity, but I couldn't maintain that holier-than-thou stuff. Besides, it didn't solve my problems. Same with Buddhism. I didn't like being woken up at 6 AM on a Sunday to go chant. Puh-leeze. :eyes:

I started hanging out with fellow sci-fi geeks in college. One of them was a Wiccan. I borrowed a few books from her, and something clicked. This was what I'd been my whole life, I just didn't realize it! I've been a Wiccan for almost 20 years now, which I guess makes me an "Elder". I still see the God and Goddess in everything. I'm still working on that "God/dess in everyone" bit - I can't see it in *, or Cheney, or Fred Phelps, etc. And, FYI, I'm not a dirty, long-haired hippie type, although I do own a pair of Birkenstocks. I'm an overweight, heterosexual, happily-married, monogamous, short-haired woman. Although I do like tye-dyed stuff. :D I'm a firm believer in the power of technology to improve the lives of Humans everywhere.

To me, the mythology of the Ancients (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc.) was a way to explain forces in nature that they didn't understand at the time. Why is it getting colder and the Earth dying? Demeter is mourning for Persephone, her daughter. We know better nowadays, but we don't know everything. Research in quantum physics has shown that certain words and phrases can cause changes in inanimate objects, similar to what Witches call "magick". So, "there's more in Heaven and Earth that is dreamt of in your reality, Horatio."

For more on Wicca and Paganism, check out http://www.witchvox.com/

[ozone_man]

64. "telling me what NOT to do rather than live my life"

I think this is the big problem with organized religion. Christianity in particular imposes it's morality on us, and to make matters worse, it's the idiotic morality of Paul.

We do have spiritual needs though and must find ways of meeting these needs that are founded more in reality instead of the make believe. One may say that it is absurd to believe in Wicca or Paganism in the modern era, but they are Earth centered religions that have a certain holistic approach to life. They respect the Earth and look toward it's preservation, while Christianity teaches us to defer happiness on this Earth as it will be achieved in heaven. This is why it's so compatible with capitalism.

In that sense, Earth centered mysticism is compatible with ecology and preservation of the planet and may blend together at some point to yield a natural form of spirituality compatible with science. Buddhism probably comes closest to this, but still has it's own rigid structures as you point out.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. The Force Behind the Universe, which some call God, is too large and

complex for us humans to understand.

Therefore, like the proverbial blind men with the elephant, those of us who have spiritual yearnings or mystical experiences, have to find our own frameworks for understanding and communicating witht them.

For me, it's the liturgical varieites of Christian worship, especially the Episcopal/Anglican style, or the Lutherans as they used to be, or the Catholics as they used to be or the Eastern Orthodox. The combination of music and ritual somehow speaks to me in a way that nothing else does. although I have had positive experiences with other spiritual traditions, including Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto, and Wiccan.

The Celts have a notion of "thin places," places where the spiritual and material realms intersect. I experienced such places before I knew the term. One of them was at a little known temple/shrine complex southeast of Kyoto. Another was in the Sierra Nevada. Still another was in a church in the U.S.