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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:27 AM
Original message
Why Believe?
In response to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1311138

and the discussion therein, along with many thoughtful threads today about the nature of war, death, belief, sacrifice and other serious topics, I’m moved to (probably futilely) make one more attempt to explain religion (from MY perspective, I don’t claim this is Revealed Inerrant Truth) and its function in human life. There is so much misunderstanding around the topic, and it seems so potent to move us to revile, disrespect, and try to hurt one another. Anything that powerful deserves some serious examination.

Many who consciously reject religion have focused on its potency as a justification for terrible evil. Rejecting religion on that basis is easily understandable. That understanding also helps explain why anyone who sees religion only as a fabrication for the justification of evil would be willing to provoke, ridicule, and revile religious people and their beliefs. Religion’s power over people is nothing to be taken lightly. Those who are frightened by it have reason. Great evil has been done in the name of religion.

And since the historical record is so short, and so scanty, it is impossible to set the evil done in the name of religion on some kind of ethical scale, and balance it against the force of religion for good in the course of human evolution and civilization, and reach an objectively verifiable conclusion. Those of us who believe that religions have provided much of the structure that enabled the evolution of human society and civilization cannot call forth incontrovertibly clear records from a time before record keeping and identify the exact point at which some proto-prophet pointed out that some proto-God demanded of humans that they refrain from vile acts, and commit acts of an altruistic nature. (Even if we could, the anti-religionists would point out, probably accurately, that some substantial benefit was likely to ensue to the proto-priestly class, tainting any such altruism!)

Yes, the weight of actual evidence is heavy against us believers. Yet there are millions of us, all the same, even today, in a world equipped with tools to measure the physical universe that our ancestors could never have imagined. And many of us believers have been among the finest intelligences that humanity has produced. There’s a paradox for you: The man who conceived and developed the first arguments for Big Bang physics was a Catholic cleric. Scholars, humanists, philosophers, diplomats, scientists… they are not absent from the ranks of believers, indeed they are extraordinarily present.

How is this possible? How can fine minds allow themselves to be deluded by fairy tales and myths and allegories, obsessed with rituals that have no objective result or function?

Perhaps, as some have posited, it’s all brain chemistry. Perhaps religious prayer/meditation practices and rituals function to release brain chemicals that produce beneficial results for the practitioner. The evidence supporting that hypothesis is strong, everything from longevity among certain eastern monks and orders of Catholic nuns, to the EEG traces of TM and Zen practitioners. Perhaps some believers are driven by an addiction, if you want to call it that, to the physical effects of rigorous religious practice.

But there are so many more of us who never experience and do not seek such effects. Yet we spend large amounts of time on it, or as Robert Heinlein put it, “But, like dandruff, most people have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.” Indeed. We think about it, read about it, write about it, argue about it. We support entire castes of individuals who take on a period or even a whole life’s work of examining the practice, theology, and implications of our religion in depth and share what they learn with us. If you are not a believer, it must look like complete lunacy!

So… why? Why would intelligent individuals who surely should know better embrace belief? When belief has demonstrably brought such misery and evil to the world, has no objective evidence to validate or support it, and demands of us resources that could surely be better spent for the good of humanity elsewhere? Even if the non-believer is willing to stipulate our lack of conscious evil intent, how can we maintain this terrible destructive delusion in the face of their entirely rational and kindly intended exposition of the folly and damage our belief perpetuates in human societies?

What are we, nuts or something?

How can we reconcile, for example, a concept like “religious tolerance” when the theologies of most religions explicitly denounce all other religions as false, evil, delusional, etc. How can we not blush for our own intellectual contortionism and disingenuousness as we rationalize the proto-theology of our religions as “allegorical” or “conceptual” in the face of their clear scriptural claims to literal truth?

I cannot speak for other believers, although I know that there are those who share some, perhaps all, of my beliefs. Do not assume, therefore, that my explanation is based on the dogma or theology of any specific sect, and don’t impute my generalizations or thoughts to any scripture or official exegesis. I can only try to put into words what a lifetime of study and thought and prayer has produced in the way of observations and conclusions.

Scripture, dogma, theology, etc. are tools. Ritual and practice are tools. The structure of a religious community of believers is a tool. These tools function within the matrix of their particular religious context to enable believers to explore That Which Cannot Be Explored by physical means. But they function only for the believer. Yes, it is a tautology. It is non-rational. It requires a leap of faith. Roughly, it requires a realization that That Which Cannot Be Explored by physical means exists, it requires that the impulse to explore deepen into desire and further ripen into commitment, and it requires the would-be believer to find a belief matrix that “fits” them.

Thus the religious imperative to perpetuate itself through indoctrination serendipitously provides humans an opportunity to “fit” a religion. In my own case, the indoctrination I underwent in childhood to Catholicism turned out not to “fit,” but it gave me experience and insight that made a different variation of Christianity a perfect “fit” for me.

That Which Cannot Be Explored by physical means (‘That Which’ for short, in future,) forms the bedrock of my faith. I KNOW That Which exists. Human experience documents it if only because we are constantly gaining new capabilities to explore things which were formerly unexplorable. We know that the Universe cannot be described and measured physically by beings (ourselves) bound within a four-dimensional matrix of ‘reality.’ We know that there is That Which we do not know, and That Which we cannot know, based on our sensory equipment, no matter how technologically augmented or enhanced.

Believers like myself choose to see this as a gateway. Religion is a tool for constructing hypotheses regarding what is beyond that gateway, and testing them. Very specifically, it is a way of placing ourselves, as human beings, within a matrix vastly larger than physical reality, and trying to understand our relation to that matrix, our function and our potential. Yet because we are bounded by physical reality, we must use these tools within the context of what we can grasp physically: our physical universe, our history and future, and most of all, our relations to each other, the meta-organism that is humanity.

We can’t operate on the lofty metaphysical plane I’ve just described: not only would we starve (which might facilitate our translation to the vaster universe but would rather defeat the purpose of learning about how we relate to this one) but we’d eventually be unable to hold rational converse with other people. Some believers have achieved something close to such a state. We observe and learn even from them, but it’s too advanced for most of us. We have to simplify, we have to bring it into the context of our physical existence and our interactions with each other.

If we simplify it too far, of course, its utility as a tool becomes problematic. Oversimplification results in much of the evil attributed to religion. Simplicity has many virtues (and can even be a powerful tool,) but unquestioning simplicity may be the root of much evil. So we look for a happy medium. We codify our tools into scriptures and documents and exegesis, and in almost all religions, we continually examine and refine them, adding to our understanding by sharing our experience and insights with each other. Those for whom a given religion “works” in its current form provide the skeptical sieve through which new hypotheses and insights are strained for value. The straining process can be severe and painful. When it’s combined with the human evils of self-interest and fear, it can become vile, indeed. Few evils can compare with intrasectarian strife for sustained viciousness.

The roots of intersectarian strife lie here as well, in oversimplification, self-interest and fear. Placed within the matrix of any religious belief, they will produce a terrible poison. Yet I believe the price is worth it. I believe that yes, much of human progress, much that makes us worthy of living, results from the efforts of believers to explore That Which cannot be explored by physical means. Indeed, the very search to define and expand that which CAN be explored by physical means results from this impulse as well. The striving to understand what was once unknowable (why are there lights in the night sky?) is part of the straining process. The assertion of hypothesis, the search for tools wherewith to prove or disprove the hypothesis, the collection of evidence, the analysis, the drawing of conclusions and the presentation of the conclusions to a hostile, skeptical audience, the refutation of the conclusions, the re-testing… the whole process is integrally linked to the human need to explore That Which.

Belief is human progress. Belief is, in a very deep and real sense, humanity itself. We can choose to ignore belief, defer it, or reject it—but ignoring, deferral, rejection, do not make That Which cease to be. We may find any and all religions to not “fit”—therein lies both agnosticism and the roots of religions not yet born. These, too, are part of the process of exploration of That Which. Ignore it, reject it, deny it… That Which remains.

My faith calls it That Of God, and believes that it resides within all of us. My faith demands that I respect it. I hope that I have been able to express that respect clearly for everyone here on DU, believer and non-believer alike.

reverently,
Bright
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Outstanding!
Edited on Tue May-30-06 01:31 AM by beam me up scottie
One of the best essays I've read on the subject by a believer.

One caveat, though, I didn't choose to ignore belief, defer it, or reject it, it never existed at all for me.

But I certainly respect your faith and can appreciate how it has inspired you.








Recommended.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Respectfully, your post bores me
As do all who try to rationalize some belief in a higher being.

In our society, and world, many Gods are claimed as real. For what, for why?

The world is turning more disrespectful and hateful, with all kinds of claims about religion.

The more we fight, the more we invoke religion. Religion is being invoked into our very Constitution as theocrats here wish to rule us, much as the Taliban wishes to rule the ME.

Women are thought of second class citizens in both religions. Keep them barefoot, pregnant, and uneducated. Ignore the fact that corporatists are ravishing the natural resources of each country for corporate profit.

Religion is a big turn off, and I mean major.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I agree, religion is a turn off for me as well.
But I have nothing against personal faith.

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. No, everyone should have a personal faith option
Just keep it out of my personal business, constitution, and war rationale.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. And the op stands with us.
I think that christianity is morphing into something else among liberal christians.

And I applaud the op's efforts to help others understand why she believes.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
61. That's An Interesting Thought
and I've always been interested in how Christianity has changed over time.

I wonder if today we aren't (we being liberal Christians who may be morphing) things so much differently than the "Church" did at different times in history, that we are actually morphing back to original Christianity. (Not Pauline Christianity-I'm not a big fan of Paul as I think in some ways he changed Christianity in a way that has hurt women, gays, and those who aren't "Christians".

I know my beliefs I consider Christian, but do I buy all doctrine and dogma of my Church? No, I don't.

And that is fine with me. I'm not a big Church goer, but I attend a few times a month, and I like my son to have the exposure.

The neat thing about my son (he's six) is that all of his life he has referred to God as "she". We always have just agreed with him because we thought it was neat to hear his ideas about God.

My concept of God has more attributes that society would traditionally consider female, although I don't think of God as being sexed, or necessarily as having human attributes. (Although as a human I have that as a frame of reference,whereas an energy force that is everywhere in the universe at once is something I can imagine, but have no frame of reference for really)
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
40. thank you
I am so, soooooo sick of religion, just sick of it
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. I don't understand
why if you are sick of religion your read posts in Religion/Theology.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
59. So, This Is Religion And Theology Forum
If you are sick of religion, go to another forum?

I mean, whatever.

I know everyone is welcome here, and I like to read other's opinions and reasoning about things.

But if you are soooooo sick of religion, just sick of it

don't read about it
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
51. I agree with you.
But the OP was posted in Religion/Theology and is a fine examination of both topics.
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. I've lost mine in the traditional sense, but the word still means somethin
if you want to lose the dictionary definition.

REM

Oh, life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no, I've said too much
I set it up

(chorus)
That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight, I'm
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no, I've said too much
I haven't said enough
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

Every whisper
Of every waking hour I'm
Choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt lost and blinded fool, fool
Oh no, I've said too much
I set it up
Consider this
Consider this
The hint of the century
Consider this
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

But that was just a dream
That was just a dream

(repeat chorus)

But that was just a dream
Try, cry, why try?
That was just a dream
Just a dream, just a dream
Dream
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I love that song.
Edited on Tue May-30-06 01:24 AM by beam me up scottie
REM in general, but there's something about that tune...


I'm afraid I'm not the least bit spiritual, but most of the people I know who are seem to go their own way as well.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
33. apparently enough of a turn on
for you to post on this thread.

"The world is turning more disrespectful and hateful..."

Is that true? Compared to what? More hateful than when blacks were often lynched and gays were firmly in the closet? More hateful than when Hitler and Stalin and Mao were slaughtering millions in various pogroms? More hateful than the days of Joe McCarthy?

You point to the theocrats and Taliban as if they represent all religion. Is that fair? Would it make as much sense for me to use Josef Stalin to represent all atheists and agnostics?

However, I prefer to see religion as more about higher values than about higher beings. If there are higher beings I would like to see him/her be far more active in stopping pogroms, genocides, wars, plagues, and massacres.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. Interesting Post
I agree with your statement about higher ideals and values being more important than higher beings.

I just finished a book called "Ama Adhe, The Voice That Remembers" about a Tibetan woman who was imprisoned in the 1950's and was in prison until the 1980's for her political, religious, and personal views, and her unwillingness to compromise with a system that demanded the destruction of everything (and nearly everyone) she held dear.

It's an amazing story, and I would recommend it to anyone

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0861711300/qid=1149296365/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4808963-8656767?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. Well, sure it bores you
if it doesn't relate to your life in any way. Kind of like me reading about motorcycles.

But to me, the OP covers a lot of territory with tremendous insight.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Hey T-Grannie
that's too much logic to put into a thread like this!


:silly:
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
63. Religion is not your problem, human nature is n/t



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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think hominids just have screwed-up primate wiring
and we want to be able to explain even the things we cannot.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. No, we just want to find a just reason
for attacking our world in the name of oil. Americans can't yet face the reality of us being screwed by world corporatism.
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Beautifully said
Religion's a tough topic. It's impossible to explain faith rationally, I fear. I, too, was raised Catholic and found that that particular religion did not "fit" me. Lost my faith for a long time, and joked with one of my friends once that it would sure be a lot more convenient to still have faith, as it'd be nice to really belief Someone up there gave a darn. Well, Someone took that as a prayer, and I regained my faith about 15 years ago. I still don't go to Church, but visit the Unitarian Universalist Church near my sister's whenever we visit. I really like their no-dogma-every-religion-has-something to-offer creed.
Tolerance of others' beliefs or disbelief -- I wonder if humanity will ever evolve to that point.
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IselaB Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. First, that's an excellent post
And I appreciate the time you put into it.

But from what I get out of it, you provide a pretty good description of the problems people have with religion, and the problems religious people have justifying their faith, but then I don't see you respond very effectively to those challenges.

I can see how you can construct hypotheses starting from faith, but I don't see how you can test those hypotheses with faith. You cite scientists who were also religious, but they didn't make scientific discoveries without using empirical evidence and the scientific method. Via what process does faith allow you to test anything about the world, physical, transcendental or otherwise? How do you test the reality of something if your belief in it rests on faith? If you could actually test it, it seems to me, there would be no need for faith beyond the first step of forming hypotheses.

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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Belief is the foundation of every hypothesis.
Edited on Tue May-30-06 01:18 AM by lvx35
Then you test it, and it becomes theory...If you can show it to others and get them to confirm it...But that's very tricky with faith, because a) the experiences are internal and transcendant b) because you can't prove an intelligent God if he doesn't want to be proven.

The latter argument is similar to proving the existence of NSA spying. In theory, its simple, you just have to find the secret room in the phone company...In practice, its near impossible, because the NSA is listening to all your plots to find the phone room and disrupting them accordingly or moving/hiding the secret spying room if you get too close!
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IselaB Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Well... again
You're not explaining how an hypothesis can be tested by faith. You're doing a good job of explaining why it would be difficult, but explaining why something is difficult isn't the same as explaining how it is to be done.

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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. dupe deleted
Edited on Tue May-30-06 07:29 PM by lvx35
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. What I'm saying is that it can only be done by the individual.
If I find that dedicating myself to the belief that papa smurf is my guardian angel brings deep personal fulfillment and peace, then you can't really observe that, all you can do is try to believe in papa smurf and see if it has the same results for you...Internal experiences cannot be verified by scientific means currently. Furthermore, if papa smurf appears to me and tells me that he sees into the hearts of all men and only appears to those that believe in him, well I may be quite insane...But if I'm not, there's no way for those that do not believe in papa smurf to see him, given his power.

So in other words, if you want to understand the kool-aid drinkers, you have to drink the kool-aid. There is no way to get it from the outside.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
58. Well, it's like trying to explain why you love your significant other
instead of some other person who has a lot of the same qualities.

Why do you click with one person and become utterly devoted to him or her when some other person who might be a better fit according to logical criteria makes you yawn?

Your love relationship may look crazy to other people, and in some cases, it may be crazy, as in an abusive relationship, but there is no doubt in YOUR mind that "the one" is worthy of your devotion. You want to be with that person as much as possible, you lust after them, even if they're not attractive by the world's standards, and you are concerned about their well-being. If they leave you or die, you are devastated.

It may look ridiculous to other people that I spend any time at all attending services, singing in a choir, studying the Bible and theology, and joining with other church members to feed the homeless or clear lots on the Gulf Coast, but it is satisfying to me and to millions of other people. The people in my parish are not knuckle-dragging idiots. They're mostly well-educated, we have very intelligent discussions at coffee hour, and in 2004, the Kerry bumperstickers in the parking lot out-numbered the Bush bumperstickers 9:1.

When scoffers start making nasty little remarks, it's not offensive so much as annoying and irrelevant, and sometimes kind of ignorant, as if everyone who's religious is stupid or supports Bush or doesn't know history or doesn't know philosophy or believes that dinosaurs lived 4,000 years ago, none of which is true of the people I've been around all my life.

Let's look at it another way. If someone says to you, "Your lover is ugly," how do you react?

You would probably say, "My lover would never have passed the auditions for Baywatch, but s/he is a beautiful person none the less. My lover is beautiful to ME, and that's all that counts."

Like love, religion is experiential not logical. It is a peek at the Unexplainable, like looking at the night sky out in the country, seeing all the stars, and knowing that you're not seeing even a fraction of what's out there.

As with love, you know when you have it, and you can't force it. Sometimes--often, in fact-- it surprises you when you least expect it.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. I can see where the lack of clarity arises...
Scientists make scientific discoveries about the world we can perceive using empirical evidence. That Which can't be perceived isn't empirical. There is no other way to test hypotheses about faith than through faith, because faith itself implicitly excludes empirical reality. It applies only to that which can NOT be grasped thus.

"Reality" is a slippery concept. We are too limited by the four dimensions of our physical existence to be able to say definitively and authoritatively. "This is where reality ends and unreality begins." The best we can do is say "This falls squarely within reality as we understand it," or "This falls squarely outside of reality as we understand it," and leave a large gray margin for error.

Unfortunately, when you get to a certain level of exploration, language becomes, at best, inelegant, and threatens to devolve into solipsism. In fact, what I believe in terms of religion is far more conceptually (not physically) concrete (or perhaps discrete, neither word is exact here,) than solipsism. But unless you share my matrix of theology, our discussion will necessarily be clumsy and inexact, riddled with sidetracks into definition and confirmation to ensure that what I understand of your words matches your intent and vice versa.

That's OK by me, I don't need to have you share my beliefs or even understand them in any degree of exactitude. I'm merely trying to give a general outline of the relevance and value of religion to humanity from my personal perspective. I'm sure I'll annoy some folks, provide others with a good belly laugh (you're welcome!) and possibly give others to say, 'hmmm... ok, whatever.' If even a couple of people say "Well, you lost me in the details but I think I get the gist, thanks, it gave me a couple of new insights into religion," I'll feel a warm fuzzy glow of accomplishment and that will be cool, too. OTOH, if no one says that, it will give ME something to think about. Either way, it will have provided me with one more test for one more hypothesis that means something to me.

limpidly,
Bright
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IselaB Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I hate that we're required to include a subject header
For all your time and effort, it seems to me you've said little more than "I'm going to believe what I want to believe, regardless of whether I can test the truth of it." That's the essence of faith. And I think a lot of people see that perspective as incompatible with a serious desire to know truth.

Again, saying there's no way to know the unknowable doesn't give you any insight into whatever may not be known. And explaining why something would be unknowable or ineffable isn't a valid argument for its existence.

I was really hoping you were going to give me an example of how a faith-based (excuse the phrase) hypothesis could be tested.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. I don't think a faith based hypothesis can be tested.
But that's a whole other subject.

I hope that's not where the op is going with this.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Again, I'm not sure something as rigid as language...
...can perform adequately as a tool in such a context. Language-based attempts often tend to devolve into "homoousian" versus "homoiousian" controversies and exemplify the reduction to the absurd. A critical hypothesis regarding the nature of divinity and how it could best be expressed in Christian theology was tested thus for a couple of centuries, and the controversy seems redundant, irrelevant, and absurd by today's standards. Yet Christianity would never have become what it is today without that process. It has never been definitively "settled" one way or another for every Christian, yet Christian belief about the nature of what is Divine continues to evolve based on how that essential point was framed, raised, and tested.

Perhaps a relevant contemporary example would be the evolution of Muslim understanding of the Prophet's exhortation to Muslim believers to pursue a continual struggle to realize their faith. Several interpretations of this are currently being tested among the believers of Islam. Yet absent a reincarnation of the Prophet speaking authoritatively and unambiguously on his own behalf (and accepted as such by all Muslims--what is the likelihood?!) there is no empirical way to test any of these interpretations. Muslim believers must test them for themselves, within their own faith matrix.

Non-believers do tend to laugh about paradoxes like "If God is All-Powerful, can He make a rock so big He Himself Can't Move It?" And believers get plenty of belly laughs from them too. Yet there are essential questions buried in that silly-sounding paradox about the nature of how things come into existence, the nature and purpose of creation, and the essence of divinity, that can only be explored via non-empirical means. I know how *I* explore them, but it wouldn't necessarily "work" for anyone else. Yet what I learn in the process informs the choices I make and the actions I take, and therefore has some significance for every life I touch and every life that is touched by a life I have affected somehow. Dizzy yet?

apologetically,
Bright
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. Some good points there!
Especially the part about religion being a way of exploring a world that is larger than the physical which we experience...It is, its our framework for talking about it, even though we must resort to deeply symbolic and metaphorical themes, such as eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ at communion, the church being the "body of Christ"...(us being cells) These symbolic terms, used by Christ 2000 years ago are rooted in the same mystery that makes you say "meta-organism that is humanity." Religion is a framework for understanding things which are larger than us.

But I would question something else you said:

"And since the historical record is so short, and so scanty, it is impossible to set the evil done in the name of religion on some kind of ethical scale, and balance it against the force of religion for good in the course of human evolution and civilization, and reach an objectively verifiable conclusion."

I think you can reach a conclusion that religion is good for society by the fact that it is so prolific. Man is NOT compelled by nature to follow certain religious principles, but they appear widely, therefore the idea that these religious principles helped those individuals or societies while others did not (and were suppressed) is quite reasonable.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Yawn again
Shouldn't these posts be tranferred to a different forum?

I am more than tired of religion trying to take political views and shoving their will on others.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Go tell it to MLK's grave.
I personally think his faith inspired positive secular change in the government, as did the faith of pretty much every Democratic candidate.
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. maybe transfer your click button to another topic then. nt
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. I guess I'm pretty crusty in that way...
not a chance anyone can shove a religion on me. I have my own, the personal church of one and I do it my way. no middlemen.

and a solid belief that I will end up where everyone else does after the final death throttle. No way in Hell I believe we are different in any way or going in different directions after we bite it. We are all the same.
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IselaB Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. So... is there some reason you're posting in this thread?
What with you being so bored by it and all. It's okay to leave. We won't be offended.

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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. Yawn?
Somebody spent a lot of time and effort on a post which has spurred actual discussion in the R/T section, and you find that boring? I find it really interesting, myself. I'm glad to read the reasonable responses here!

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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
41. Violence is so prolific.
That doesn't mean it's good for society.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. Its a bigger picture than that.
Edited on Thu Jun-01-06 03:20 AM by lvx35
Eyes are prolific in nature because they are useful. Eyes are used for seeing your enemy when fighting. The alternative, not having eyes, might in fact result in less violence in nature between animals, but it really doesn't matter, because the animals without eyes are dead. This is just how things go. You've got to take the dynamics of violence into account.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
12. The purpose of our lives is to be happy.
Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion.

Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them.

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.

-Dalia Lama


MZr7
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. to be happy?
yikes,
that's one of the seven dwarves name. right behind dopey.
sorry, I can't 'be happy' when so many are sad. maybe a moment or two, we are allowed just to get by.

I think you mean content with what we think we have or at peace or accepting... not 'be happy'.

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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. I don't mean anything by it ... I am simply quoting the Dalia Lama
Edited on Tue May-30-06 01:29 AM by MazeRat7
and basically the title of one of his books of which I agree..

MZr7

edit: The Art of Happiness
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. sorry, that word 'happy' makes my teeth grind.
no offense to you or the Lama.
I've seen too many people be 'happy' by just buying shit they don't need. Or 'happy' at the thought of putting someone else down.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. No problem, it is a loaded word....I do get that.
Not to mention that all the cases or "interpretations" of happiness you quoted are considered the exact opposite in the book. If you have not read it, I would urge you to if there is even the least bit of interest in understanding his definition. It was written for a western audience and I have found it an invaluable source of personal peace when there seems to be none in the world.

Besides, it certainly won't be the "worst" book you read all year. *grin

MZr7
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. thanks. I do want to unlearn some things. nt
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Other than the rich, there is NO happiness in this country
None. Our unfrastructure is crumbling, we are becoming a third world country, our troops are dying for corporate imperialism.

W stuck it to us big time.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Happiness isn't always dependent on external conditions...
...such as peace, freedom, prosperity, etc. That's one of the odd mysteries people use religion to explore. How is it possible for someone in (for example) a Siberian prison camp, to write poetry expressing vibrantly transcendent happiness, when they have NO freedom, are cruelly oppressed or even tortured, and have not a single possession of their own? Yet it happens.

By the same token, how is it possible for someone who is so wealthy they can have any material possession they want, exercise terrifying amounts of power over other people, and the freedom to go anywhere, do anything they wish, be so miserable they commit suicide? That happens, too.

From the perspective of my own faith, I am obligated to apply myself to doing what I can to create the conditions that will make it easier for my fellow humans to achieve greater peace, freedom, prosperity, etc. Also to attempt to relieve unhappiness when it is in my power (which it rarely is, unfortunately.) But I acknowledge that there is no guarantee that, regardless of what I do, I will "make" anyone else happy. Nor am I obligated to "make" anyone else happy, since what will or won't make any individual "happy" varies so widely. Nor is happiness invariably good for us. Unhappiness has its functions and they are important and can be constructive as well as destructive. My obligation extends to the respect of That Which is in within my fellow humans as well as myself. Which automatically excludes filthy acts on both counts. I don't always live up to my own standards, but I hope That Which is more forgiving potentiates my desire and efforts to live up to them into better performance in the future.

In the mean time, I do what I can to create a physical reality where That Which is respected and empowered in all humans. That includes voting against most GOPpies and working to make the Democratic Party more committed to economic justice, compassion, and peace. Good enough?

diffidently,
Bright
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Not exactly. Happiness should "never" be dependent on external conditions
Happiness is not something ready made, it comes from our own actions.

In other words, "happiness" is dependent on our own state of mind and not the state of things external to us.

MZr7
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Yes and no, MazeRat7...
...as someone who suffers from seasonal depression I'm very much aware of how the amount of sunlight affects my ability to experience "happiness." Essentially, I agree with you. But I think Erika was also making an important and valid point, one especially relevant to people of faith: happiness often DOES function as a response to external conditions and can be an important indicator of whether we are doing enough as a society to produce certain conditions, among them, economic justice, freedom from fear, etc.

There's a good reason the Founders wrote "the pursuit of happiness" into the Declaration of Independence-- they were aware of the relationship between the actions of the many (society, the State,) and the ability of the one (the individual) to achieve the conditions that make happiness easier to attain. It's only when the definition of "happiness" is broken down to mean "stuff" that dysfunction sets in.

Like "reality," the definition of "happiness" is a slippery concept. We need to address it both in the metaphysical and the physical sense.

That's one reason why I believe it is absolutely essential to keep Church and State independent of one another. They canNOT work effectively and function efficiently to meet their goals when constrained by one anothers' matrix of reality.

disputationally,
Bright
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. There in lies the problem with "faith".....
faith: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny

You can not control what external things will happen to you... but you can only control how you respond.

Like everyone, you want joy, happiness and life purpose. "But the problem is, most people are looking in all the wrong places. Career. Money. Relationships. Power. Yet, esoteric teachings claim all answers lie within you. They describe a secret jewel inside within the heart. The treasure of infinite value. The divine essence called... The Higher Self."

Happiness is not something that comes to you. It is something you create now, today. Waiting for something to change in order to be happy is waiting to live your life. It is not what happens to you that counts. It is how you react to what happens to you. It is your attitude. When you adopt a positive attitude, life becomes a rewarding adventure instead of something to get through.

So IMHO, this is not a yes/no question. This is "how it is"...and it doesn't involve "faith", it involves discipline of the mind.

MZr7
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
57. This is very interesting...
And the only semi answer I have to the human condition in the two cases that you pointed out is that through struggle, some find self-worth, while through complacancy, others are smacked in the face by their self-worthlessness.

(While going through adversity, often people find strength. But those who don't need to struggle may find life boring or without meaning.)
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. No happiness whatsoever, eh?
Why was I just very happy laughing at posts in the Lounge? Why am I very happy playing, and writing?

Being happy does not mean being ignorant or apathetic to the peril our country is in.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
53. I am a very long way from being
rich in material goods but I am happy most of the time. I am satisfied with my life.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Just think of what we are doing to the Iraqis
while our own needy are so hurting.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
55. And how is this different
from any other era in humanity?
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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
30. IMO "Why believe" implies that we have a choice and it is a
decision that we can all make one way or the other. To me your view is erroneous. My analysis of life tells me that religion is a hoax and I have no need to believe. By the way I'm a very happy 80 year old.

I believe that the whole vulnerability and or tendency to following preachers, liars, politicians, kings and so on is in our genetic make up because of the survival advantage in group hunting, planting, gathering and tribal war. To me it isn't a bit different than the way about 80% thought Bush was right on for a while. 80% seems like the top number of those believing anything including religion. If we could visit a primitive tribe I suspect about 20% or more would be decenters and they would probably be the ones who would likely start a new tribe. I believe wolf packs are similar.
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Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. You're right that there is no choice in the matter.
I've tried to believe at times in my life, but found that the more I learned about XXX religion, the less I believed. I've found that the best I can do is hope. I call myself an atheist. I go through the motions of my wife's Buddhism from time to time, but in the end, I simply hope that there is an afterlife, and that it is less cruel than this life.

But I'm not betting the farm on there being anything.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
39. all humans know -- intuitively and/or through experience -- that . . .
there is "something more" to the universe than what we can experience here on Earth . . . just look at the stars on a clear night and imagine what might be out there that we have no conception of . . .

religion is a way for some people to make sense of those parts of the human experience that are beyond our intellectual scope . . . and people experience religion in all kinds of ways, from the saintly to the demonic . . .

"Why Believe?" is a question that each individual must answer for him/herself . . . and the resulting diversity of belief is simply part of the human condition . . .
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peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
43. Part of it is about the thirst for discovery
Edited on Tue May-30-06 04:10 PM by peanutbrittle
Great post!

I believe the thirst for discovery lies within all of us whether you believe in a Creator or not especially when you consider that religion was much the original driving force behind science.



Interesting site you might be interested in:

http://www.metanexus.net/metanexus_online/show_article2.asp?id=5428

"exploring the dynamic interface between cosmos, nature and culture"

The Metanexus Institute advances research, education and outreach on the constructive engagement of science and religion. We seek to create an enduring intellectual and social movement by collaborating with persons and communities from diverse religious traditions and scientific disciplines.

In a spirit of humility and with a deep concern for intellectual rigor, the Metanexus Institute promotes a balanced and exploratory dialogue between science and religion. While mindful of the complexities of this endeavor, we work to develop integrative approaches that enrich the domains of both science and religion.

Topics: http://www.metanexus.net/metanexus_online/magazine/#

Personally, I believe the merging of the two may eventually give us the smoking gun in the quest to reveal our origins.

Religion gave us the laws of nature before Science
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
44. "...it requires a realization that That Which Cannot Be Explored..."
Shouldn't that, to be honest, read "it requires an assumption that..."?

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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
47. The R_A summary of how this appears;
- You have made what you believe clear, I think;

- If you wish to believe that, I have no qualms with that.

- If you want to argue that this is the truth, or indeed the best way to look at the world, then I will take exception to that.

Now, just a touch up:

"We know that the Universe cannot be described and measured physically by beings (ourselves) bound within a four-dimensional matrix of ‘reality.’"

Nope, not yet we don't. (And I would favour an 11 dimensional viewpoint but that is merely a technicality)

And one last thing, for the sources of evil, I would add making two (or more) groups out of people, though if you want me to explain why, don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers,
The Random_Australian.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
49. This is the finest
piece of writing I have read on DU, bar none.

Thank you for saying the things my heart tries to say but woefully fails.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
54. This is quite beautiful
AND thought provoking. Thank you for this. I need time to think about it, actually. It deserves to be on the greatest page, as well, as it's wonderfullly written while making difficult concepts quite easy to grasp. :)
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
64. Thank you Bright!
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