Why aren't the 10 Commandments better?

[Dookus]

I mean really. You're God. You can compose 10 rules for humans. Would you really waste four of 'em on yourself and how you should be worshipped?

Honoring your parents is fine in most cases, but are there no bigger things to worry about? Some of the most basic moral issues aren't even addressed in the decalogue.

Here's a few I'd add:

Thou shalt not own another human being - slavery is an abomination.
Thou shalt not make war.
Thou shalt care for the Earth and keep it clean, for all my living creation relies upon it.
Thou shalt spread the wealth around a little.
Thou shalt signal when turning or changing lanes. (granted, this one might've confused the ancient Hebrews a little)

[codegreen]

1. n/t (Mel Brooks)

[Dookus]

2. lol

I remember that...

[lenidog]

12. LOL!

That is a great avatar.

[lenidog]

3. Cut him some slack

I mean he is a desert deity at this time. Something that was not in short supply in that part of the world. He had lots of competition so he slid a few rules in to keep himself on top. Besides didn't you watch "History of the World Part I?" You know what happened to the other ten.

[tjdee]

4. Most of those are covered.

Thou shalt not kill--warring is killing.

Thou shalt not steal--taking people from their homes and country (that's slavery. In fact, thou shalt not covet also covers colonialism.

And the others, basically, are covered by the blanket "thou sahlt have no gods before me"....gods like money (which leads to greed and not spreading the wealth), etc.

[Dookus]

5. I think

he could've been a little less ambiguous. I don't think anybody equated slavery with stealing. I think he could've addressed racism. I think he could've been clearer about war, considering the bible is FULL of war and killing, often done in gods name or even at his insistence.

[tjdee]

8. That's true...I don't deal much in Old Testament.

I'm kind of puzzled why as Christians we use it to the extent we do. I think of it more as history tacked on, like a prequel.

Jesus had one commandment, which was to "love one another even as I have loved you". That seems even more inclusive than the others.

I dunno. War is a weird case.

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. No, not quite -

Thou shalt not kill meant murder. War was not considered murder at the time - in fact, if you remember your Biblical text, God gives Moses the law after they left Egypt, on their way to the promised land.

On entry into the promised land, God gives them the injunction to wage war and kill everyone there.

This commendment also does not apply to capital punishment, either - executions were often and endorsed. Look at the number of laws that end with "and the violator shall be stoned to death".

Thou shalt not steal did not apply to taking slaves. The stealing applied only to those within the covenant - stealing from those outside the covenant was okay, especially in times of war. Taking slaves was okay. In fact, if you read the law as given to Moses, there is quite a lot about the proper treatment of slaves.



However, I would agree with you that modern interpretation should in deed very well go the route that you have - it is especially in accordance with what the prophets, coming way afetr Moses, offered us; esp. cf. Micah 6:8 - what does the lord require but justice, etc. And, going the route you chose is also very much in line with how Jesus would interpret it as well, in my opinion.

[MemphisTiger]

50. They are covered in scripture as well, not just the 10 commandments

The making war is not advocated but it is acceptable do defend yourself. The catch is that it must be a "just" war. That is open into interpretation by man.

[Az]

59. Have you read the OT? God was pretty open to warring

He even joined the fight a couple of times. Even though he didn't always guarantee victory when he was on their side (don't ask about iron chariots).

Much of the OT involves God's chosen people running around and killing the people God wasn't so fond of. We are talking genocide here. Mass elimination of entire peoples.

[charlyvi]

6. Well, Dookus....

Maybe he thought he'd give us the basic ten and wait to see what we'd do with 'em. Boy, did we fuck up big time. Really big time. Just me thoughts.

[lenidog]

14. Well if we were made in God's image

then it shows because he was pretty schizo back then.

[DulceDecorum]

25. Speak for yourself

Even the Bible admits that there is more than one God.
(Elohim)

You may look and act just like your father
and I may look and act just like my father
but that does NOT mean
that we look and act the same as each other.

We have different fathers, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Please give my regards to your father, I wish him all the best.

[MemphisTiger]

51. Where does it say that?

[rockymountaindem]

7. Well, according to Judaism

the original religion of the 10 Commandments, there are actually 613 laws spread throughout the Bible (Old Testament to non-Jews). These cover everything from the mundane "wear fringes on your garments" to the socially imperative "Thou shalt not insult the deaf or place a stumbling block before the blind", and leaving part of the harvest for the poor.

Google the "Noahide laws". These seven laws are the only seven Jews believe apply to non-Jews. If others wish to join our people in our mission to help God perfect the world by performing good works and obeying the laws, then that's fantastic. Otherwise, only obedience to seven laws is expected, and one of them is "do not eat a limb torn from a living animal". How hard is that?

[Dookus]

9. it's not hard

I rarely gnaw on a living animal.

But the seven noahide laws cover theft, the administration of justice, killing, sexual relations, the limb-thing, idolatry and blasphemy.

It doesn't address racism or slavery or caring for the environment.

My point is that people are always arguing that religion or the Bible is the foundation of moral behavior. Many people believe atheists cannot be moral. But my position is that the morality expressed in the bible is incomplete and often useless - sabbaths and idols really don't affect people one way or the other, but racism surely does!

I think that if there were a God, and he wanted us to behave morally, he could've done a much better job of spelling it out.

[lenidog]

13. Some of those dietary laws are pretty strange

Like not eating any animal that eats carrion. I guess in those times Jackal was the other white meat.

[rockymountaindem]

35. True, true.

That's where people come in. You should remember that according to the Bible, we're all of one race, the children of Adam and Eve. So that should implicitly guard against racism.

The faliure to appreciate and apply this principal is a shortcoming indeed. However, God cannot command us all the time. There was a discussion as to the nature of free will and good/evil last week I think, but as people (and especially for Jews) it is our job to go beyond the basics and make the world better than God originally created it.

[Dookus]

36. actually

nothing implicitly guards against racism in the bible, because racism was normal and accepted at the time. The jews were enslaved, and the old testament goes on about the proper treatment of slaves without ever condemning the practice.

So slavery is NOT biblically immoral - it took mankind a few thousand extra years to come to that conclusion.

[rockymountaindem]

39. At that time

slavery was not linked to race. When Americans think of slavery, we think of blacks being enslaved by whites. This is a narrow perspective. In Russia, serfs were essentially slaves, but their bondage was a result of their class, not their race. Slavery existed in nearly every ancient culture, and to varying degrees. The type of slavery laid out in the Old Testament was more akin to what we would know as endentured servitude. The Bible says that slaves/endentured servents should be set free after seven years, unless they desire to stay with their master. When freed, they are to be granted "generous parting gifts" by their former masters, which is essentially a form of payment for their service. More directly to your complaints of racism, it was not based on race. Some people sold themselves into slavery after falling into debt as a way to get back on their feet and gain some protection from creditors.

Furthermore, every 50 years land was to be redistributed back to its former owner, ensuring that no large heriditary estates could out-compete more modest farmers.

Lastly, I don't see why God is somehow responsible for this. Perhaps he should have made more laws, but people have enough trouble following the ones God did give us, so who's to say any additional laws against racism would be obeyed?

[Dookus]

41. yes

I know slavery and race weren't necessarily connected then. That's why I make a point of mentioning them separately.

Why shouldn't God be responsible for this? Seriously, imagine that YOU have become a God. You can tell the people of the planet 10 rules that you think will make the planet and its inhabitants better. Are those the 10 you'd choose? Not me.

Slavery was not condemned in the old testament because it was not thought to be immoral. I think that's a sign that old testament morality is NOT divine, but merely a reflection of the habits and customs of the ancient Hebrews.

[DulceDecorum]

17. Oooh! Noahide Laws?

Where do I begin?

Upon seizing the reins of government, the new Noachide leaders will move quickly to implement a full agenda of reform. ... Full support will be given to Israeli forces to reinvade PLO-controlled areas, with military assistance offered where necessary. Jewish courts ... will be granted full legal sovereignty over Jewish citizens within each country, who will no longer be subject to the authority of gentile courts. The pre-existing Noachide judges and courts will replace the existing court system of each country, and the legal code will be drastically rewritten to conform to halacha.... .... And law and order will be fully restored through the establishment of internal security measures, again in accordance with Torah law. — Committee for Israeli Victory
http://www.ukar.org/gore10.html

The Palestinians struggle DAILY with these doctrines and
the US is only just beginning to comprehend Homeland Security.
Wait till Moshiach comes.
Right after Bush attacks Iran.

The reason why the Christian right has been funneling money into the West Bank is because they are trying to force the Rapture.
According to Evangelical Christian beliefs, the Jews will rebuild the Temple Mount. When that happens the Lord will take all Born Again Christians up into heaven with him where they will live at his right hand for ever and ever Amen.
But the Jews will not rebuild the Temple Mount because they are all impure from having stepped upon the earth which has dead people buried in it. In order for them to be pure, they must get a pure red heifer that was born in Israel and burn it. The ashes will be mixed with water and this will be used to purify the builders and priests of the temple.
Reverend Clyde Lott , an Evangelical cattle breeder, has been working with American-Born Rabbi Richman and West Bank settlers to genetically create a perfect red cow. The West Bank is currently populated with Palestinian Muslims who are sworn to protect the Al Aqsa Mosque which must be destroyed because it currently sits exactly where they intend to build the Temple Mount. They also need a male who has taken his bar mitzvah (he would be at least 13 years old) who has been raised "in a bubble" never touching the earth or anything that has become ritually unclean.

According to the Jews,
the Messiah will come once the temple is built.
According to the Christians,
the Jews will almost all die once the Temple is built and an antichrist immediately moves into it.
According to the Muslims,
both the Christians and the Jews will die violent and bloody deaths if they attempt to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque.

No, I am not hallucinating!
We are about to see the biggest mass suicide ever.
Furthermore, if you listen to the Christians, there also has to be a war with Persia (Iran) around this same time.
http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd040302.html

Rapture radicals: Bush and the Fundamentalists
http://www.unknownnews.net/apocalypsenow.html

[rockymountaindem]

37. That's a lot of stuff

but specifically the Noahide laws refer to the seven laws Jews belive non-Jews are held to. They are pretty simple. All the things you mention a) go far, far beyond the scope of the Noahide laws (which Jews are also required to observe) and b) extend into Christian and Islamic philosophy which would better be articulated by followers of those religions, not me.

As for the Jews, most don't really care about building a temple these days. We've moved far beyond that (theologically speaking) since the Rabbinical council of the year 70 which replaced animal sacrifice with prayer subsequent to the destruction of the second temple. That's why if you attend a Jewish service, much of it is the same litturgy repeated twice. The repetition takes the place of the animal sacrifice portion of the ceremony which has not been performed for nearly 2000 years.

[DulceDecorum]

43. With all due respect

I feel strongly that the members of one religion
should keep their hands off members of other religions.

In other words,
if a gentile disobeys "Noahide Laws"
then it ain't nobody's business but their own
and NO Jewish person has the "right" to do anything whatsoever about it,
no matter what that religion tells them.

As for building a temple,
if there is no interest in this project,
then WHY did Ariel Sharon ascend the temple Mount
(in full violation of Halacha)
in September 2002, thus kicking off the Second Palestinian Intifada which has brought Israel to its knees?

If there is no interest in rebuilding the Temple,
than how do you account for the development of the red heifer?
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j041502.html

How do you explain this?

Jan. 25, 2005
Orly Benny-Davis has come a long way from her youth in Ramat Gan. Today a well-known US political activist, Benny-Davis ran for the senate last year in her home state of South Carolina. On Monday night, she was in Jerusalem to attend the 11th annual Temple Mount dinner and to help speed up the construction of the third temple.
<snip>
"Maybe there will be a tsunami-like disaster similar to the one in Southeast Asia which killed hundreds of thousands of people," said Baruch Ben-Yosef, a member of the Temple Mount Faithful. "The mosques will be moved to Mecca where they should be, and we will climb the Mount to build an altar and conduct sacrifices."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?
pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1106537800119

SACRIFICES.
Your turn.

[rockymountaindem]

45. Of course Jews can't tell people how to act.

There are two kinds of laws in Judaism. Some are between people and other people. These include theft, murder, lying and gossip, etc. If someone breaks these laws, that's everyone's problem because someone is harming someone else.

The second kind of law is between people and God. If a person breaks these laws, it doensn't hurt the community explicitly, but it is an issue between the individual and God. These laws aren't the domain of anyone else beside the offender and God.

As for the second temple business, the people you make referance to are in the small minority in Judaism. I can't comment as to their numbers within Christianity. With reguard to Ariel Sharon, I haven't heard anything about it being in violation of halacha. Secondly, it was up to the Palestinians whether or not to respond with violence. Sharon didn't "kick off" the intefada. Sharon visited the Temple Mount because it is a sacred site for Jews, as it is for Muslims. In an ideal world, people of both faiths would be able to visit it openly, along with plain old tourists, as it is both an historical and religous site. As it is, small groups of Jews are allowed there under close supervision, and only Muslims over the age of 35 (I think) are allowed to worship at the mosque there.

[DulceDecorum]

62. Ever heard of a man named Uzzah?

The Ark of the Covenant was being transported atop a cart drawn by oxen.
The oxen stumbled and the Ark began to slide off the cart.
Uzzah reached out to catch the Ark and he was stricken dead in his tracks for his effort.
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/touch_ark.html

Moral: Don't touch the Ark.

I guess you are wondering why I reminded you of that bible-story.

The Temple Mount is holy and carries the same prohibitions as the Ark.
The High Priest used to enter the room containing the Ark only once a year and when he did so he tied a girdle securely around his waist as required.
The story goes that if he died in there, the people could drag his corpse out without setting foot within that holy space. However, I would be remiss if I did not also point out that there are those who dispute that reason for the wearing of the girdle.

In any case, halacha -- Jewish religious law -- expressly forbids random everyday Jewish people from stepping within the holy of Holies and since no-one is sure exactly where on the Temple Mount this place is located, the Rabbinate of Israel has long forbidden any Jew to step upon the Temple Mount.

Leading rabbis rule Temple Mount is off-limits to Jews
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/528413.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/528413.html

There is no such thing as Muslim Rabbi
and so this decree CANNOT be blamed on those who practice Islam.

January 18, 2005
Chief rabbis Yonah Metzger and Shlomo Moshe Amar, and a number of important rabbinical figures associated with the national religious world, have issued a halakhic ruling reiterating that it is forbidden for Jews to enter any part of the Temple Mount in our times. A similar halakhic ruling was issued a few months after the Six-Day War in 1967.
The current ruling was signed also by former chief rabbis Ovadia Yosef, Avraham Shapira, Eliahu Bakshi-Doron, the rabbi of the Western Wall, and heads of well-known national religious-oriented yeshivas.
It is seen as a blow to the members of the Temple Mount movements who have been trying for years to get a wider circle of rabbis to endorse the present-day entry of Jews to the holy site.
The ruling points out that Jews must avoid the entire site of the Temple Mount.
"Over the years," the rabbis state, "we have lost the exact location of the Temple, and anyone entering the Mount could unwittingly enter the area of the Temple and the Holy of Holies. With this in mind, we reiterate our warning ... that no man nor woman should set foot in the entire area of the Temple Mount, irrespective of which gate is used for this purpose."
The original halakhic ruling was issued by the two chief rabbis at the time, Isser Yehuda Unterman and Yitzhak Nissim, and they were joined by hundreds of other leading rabbinical figures. The current ruling was the initiative of the rabbi of the Western Wall, Shmuel Rabinowitz, and the head of the Ateret Cohanim yeshiva, Shlomo Aviner.
http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/25-01-05.htm

Jan 26, '05 / 16 Shevat 5765
Rabbi Rabinovitch explained, "For one thing, we began gathering the signatures a year ago, when the Temple Mount was reopened to Jews after being closed for over three years, and it took until now to get all of them. Furthermore, we see that there are more and more religious Jews visiting the Mount, according to Halakhic precautions of where and how they are permitted, but it increases the dangers of others seeing them and going up themselves without being careful of the details of this so-stringent prohibition. In addition, it's not the diplomatic situation that weakens or strengthens our hold or claim, but rather our adherence to the Torah."
Rabbi Rabinovitch also said that leading rabbis of the past century, such as Rabbi Avraham HaCohen Kook and his son, forbade going to the Temple Mount, and "are we greater than them that we can say that we know where the Holy of Holies was located?... Let's leave something for G-d to do. Let's let Him build the Holy Temple, and we'll do what we're supposed to do; believe me, if we would have prayed more, the Temple would have been built long ago."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=75945

However, there is a very determined group of Jews who insist that it their right and indeed their responsibility to walk all over the place, if and when they choose to do so. Ariel Sharon appears to be sympathetic to this group
http://www.solomonstemple.com/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=4
as can be seen by his actions of September 2000.

Sharon's impending visit was officially announced in advance, and prior to it some moderates on both sides protested, because of his controversial political stance and his massive armed bodyguard — over 1,000 strong. He was warned that this could lead to riots but Sharon declared that he went to the site with a message of peace. On the site, he publically proclaimed the area as eternal Israeli territory, reiterating Israel's official policy, according to the Jerusalem Law passed by the Knesset in 1980.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada

The drive to build the Third Temple
has its roots planted firmly within the United States.

All the ministers in this work are well respected men of God, but the focus is on Clyde Lott and Chaim Richman. Clyde is a licensed minister, a graduate of Mississippi State University where he majored in animal science. He is a prominent cattleman working cattle shows throughout the U.S. Chaim Richman is an Israeli, but he was born, raised and educated in the Unites States.
http://www.templemount.org/heifer.html

Naturally, the Bible Belt,
which anxiously anticipates the coming of the AntiChrist
is most alarmed when anything threatens to derail the Apocalypse.

Jan 27, 2005,
So the apprehension continues: evangelicals wait for closure on the topic in order to see Jews erect their next Jerusalem Temple, opening up New Testament prophecy for political leader AntiChrist to desecrate the Holy of Holies, thus setting loose the last 42 months of the about-seven year Tribulation Period. Add to the mix Jews who say that it’s logical for Jews to ascend the Mount for worship, for academic studies, believing that deity is not going to be angry. Then the religious Jews who are wary of taking any such risks.
According to Arutz Sheva, Haifa’s Chief Rabbi She’ar-Hashuv Cohen protests Chief Rabbis Amar and Metzger showing to the public — including of course media — signatures placed on a ban on Jewish ascent to the Mount.
http://magic-city-news.com/article_2892.shtml

As you can see, Ariel Sharon DID violate halacha when he ascended the Temple Mount accompanied with hundreds of Jewish people.
And this was and is a serious provocation to the Muslims who worship at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Al-Aqsa has been at times the target of attacks by Jewish extremists (see Temple Mount for more details), but most attempts were averted by Israel's security services.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque

Ariel Sharon, a long time hawk on the Israeli side, deliberately violated Arab sensitivities when he walked into the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem in September 2000, which led to the renewal of the intifada by the Arabs. He was voted into office shortly thereafter, soon after the Bush victory in the US presidential election of late 2000.
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/Full_Story.asp?ItemID=2959&Cat=12

That is what ONE PERSON had to say concerning the Muslim point of view. Please remember that this person does not speak for the entire world any more than Novacula speaks for you.
However, it serves to emphasize the contention that
what happened upon the Temple Mount in September 2000,
was very very wrong.

When the oxen stumbled, Uzzah, in direct violation of the divine law (Num. 4:15), put forth his hand to steady the ark, and was immediately smitten unto death. The place where this occurred was henceforth called Perez-uzzah (1 Chr. 13:11).
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/uzzah.html
Perez-uzzah
Meaning: the breach of Uzzah
a place where God "burst forth upon Uzzah, so that he died," when he rashly "took hold" of the ark (2 Sam. 6:6-8)
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/perez-uzzah.html

[struggle4progress]

10. Perhaps the reporters simply didn't do a very good job ...

... of covering the story.

[AZCat]

30. They may have been "contracted" (a la Williams) to cover NSLB

NSLB = No Slave Left Behind

[DulceDecorum]

11. You are looking at the edited verson.

And Moses went up unto God. And God spake all these words, saying,

I am the Law, thy God, which hath brought thee out from the depths of the bondage of darkness.
Thou shalt have no other Laws before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any image of the Law in heaven above or in the earth beneath. I am the invisible Law, without beginning and without end.
Thou shalt not make unto thee false laws, for I am the Law, and the whole Law of all laws. If thou forsake me, thou shalt be visited by disasters for generation upon generation.
If thou keepest my commandments, thou shalt enter the Inftnite Garden where stands the Tree of Life in the midst of the Eternal Sea.
Thou shalt not violate the Law. The Law is thy God, who shall not hold thee guiltless.

Honor thy Earthly Mother, that thy days may be long upon the land, and honor thy Heavenly Father, that eternal life be thine in the heavens, for the earth and the heavens are given unto thee by the Law, which is thy God.

Thou shalt greet thy Earthly Mother on the morning of the Sabbath.

Thou shalt greet the Angel of Earth on the second morning.

Thou shalt greet the Angel of Life on the third morning.

Thou shalt greet the Angel of Joy on the fourth morning.

Thou shalt greet the Angel of Sun on the fifth morning.

Thou shalt greet the Angel of Water on the sixth morning,

Thou shalt greet the Angel of Air on the seventh morning-

All these Angels of the Earthly Mother shalt thou greet, and consecrate thyself to them, that thou mayest enter the Infinite Garden where stands the Tree of Life.

Thou shalt worship thy Heavenly Father on the evening of the Sabbath.

Thou shalt commune with the Angel of Eternal Life on the second evening.

Thou shalt commune with the Angel of Work on the third evening.

Thou shalt commune with the Angel of Peace on the fourth evening.

Thou shalt commune with the Angel of Power on the fifth evening,

Thou shalt commune with the Angel of Love on the sixth evening.

Thou shalt commune with the Angel of Wisdom on the seventh evening.


All these Angels of the Heavenly Father shalt thou commune with, that thy soul may bathe in the Fountain of Light, and enter into the Sea of Eternity.
The seventh day is the Sabbath: thou shalt remember it, keep it holy. The Sabbath is the day of the Light of the Law, thy God. In it thou shalt not do any work, but search the Light, the Kingdom of thy God, and all things shall be given unto thee.
For know ye that during six days thou shalt work with the Angels, but the seventh day shalt thou dwell in the Light of thy Lord, who is the holy Law.
Thou shalt not take the life from any living thing. Life comes only from God, who giveth it and taketh it away.
Thou shalt not debase Love. It is the sacred gift of thy Heavenly Father.
Thou Shalt not trade thy Soul, the priceless gift of the loving God, for the riches of the world, which are as seeds sown on stony ground, having no root in themselves, and so enduring but for a little while.
Thou shalt not be a false witness of the Law, to use it against thy brother: Only God knoweth the beginning and the ending of all things, for his eye is single, and he is the holy Law.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's possessions. The Law giveth unto thee much greater gifts, even the earth and the heavens, if thou keep the Commandments of the Lord thy God.

And Moses heard the voice of the Lord, and sealed within him the covenant that was between the Lord and the Children of Light.
And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tablets of the Law were in his hand.
And the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tablets.
http://www.powerattunements.com/moses.html

[Dookus]

19. well that didn't make it into the Bible

and I still don't see proscriptions against slavery or racism.

[DulceDecorum]

22. Maybe they hadn't invented them yet

It takes a VERY hard heart to "own" a slave.

[Dookus]

23. umm....

the jews had just fled slavery in Egypt. They were more than familiar with the concept.

[DulceDecorum]

24. Hmmm

There are other accounts of that whole story.
But I really don't want to get into a flame war.

[Dookus]

27. what kind of flame war?

I'm talking about the Bible. I don't even know what the Essene Book of Moses is.

Are you asserting that the Jews were not in captivity in Israel?

[DulceDecorum]

44. This all happened before my time.

I can only go on what I have been told.

My understanding is that a man by the name of Joseph had a bit of a problem with his brothers and he wound up living out his days in Egypt. At some point Joseph's brothers and his parents came over and joined him in Egypt.
A long time passed.
Then those descendants, who had increased greatly in number, left Egypt and wandered around the desert for quite some time before finding a place to settle down.

Most accounts say that the descendants of Joseph wished to leave Egypt but there are other accounts that say that they left against their will.

Like I said, I wasn't around to read the newspapers when all this was going on. But I am around now, and I have noticed that some person by the name of Laurent Murawiec gave a powerpoint presentation at the Pentagon.

The first half of Murawiec's presentation reads calmly enough, echoing Fareed Zakaria's Oct. 15, 2001, Newsweek essay about why the Arab world hates the United States. Its tribal, despotic regimes bottle up domestic dissent but indulge the exportation of political anger; intellectually, its people are trapped in the Middle Ages; its institutions lack the tools to deal with 21st-century problems; yadda yadda yadda.
But then Murawiec lights out for the extreme foreign policy territory, recommending that we threaten Medina and Mecca, home to Islam's most holy places, if they don't see it our way. Ultimately, he champions a takeover of Saudi Arabia. The last slide in the deck, titled "Grand strategy for the Middle East," abandons the outrageous for the incomprehensible. It reads:
Iraq is the tactical pivot
Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot
Egypt the prize

Egypt the prize?
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2069119

This makes little sense unless one looks at it from a religious perspective. Someone wants to go back into Egypt.
Since religion is something that people tend to take very very personally,
flame wars are prone to erupt when cherished beliefs are challenged.

[Dookus]

46. sorry, I'm confused

I'm unfamiliar with accounts of the period other than the biblical one. May I ask whose account your describing?

[boomboom]

16. You're kidding, right?

We are God's creation. The first five have to do with respect, honor, praise and worship for the Lord that created all Life. The last five deal with our relationship with others (and ourselves) here on earth. What can you possibly object to about the 10 commandments? There are no bigger things to worry about. We are all a product first of God, then our mother and father. I suggest you actually read the Bible, both old and new testaments.

[Dookus]

21. Hrmm...

My objection is that of all the things God could command us to do, he spends half of them on his own ego, and then ignores the great sins of humanity like racism, war, slavery and environmental destruction.

As to the bible, I've read it. It's what made me an atheist.

[boomboom]

26. Really?

The Bible made you an atheist? Why is that? Seriously, what turned you off?

As to God ignoring the great sins of humanity. He hasn't. He gave man free will. And the story isn't over yet.

[Dookus]

29. it was the pure silliness of it

and the discovery of how much of it is wrong. I learned it's a book just like any other - not the divinely-inspired word of God.

Again, my point is why don't the 10 Commandments - often claimed to be the basis for human morality, include some of the really big moral issues?

[boomboom]

31. They do

What do you think is wrong? In my opinion, it stands the test of time. But, I assume I'm older than you. By that I mean I questioned a lot until I finally realized I was not an ultimate authority on anything......

[Dookus]

32. No

I'm sorry, the 10 commandments do NOT address war, slavery, the environment or racism.

I'm 43 years old. Is that old enough to discuss the issue?

[boomboom]

34. Yeah, totally old enough

And I'm sorry if I seemed patronizing. I was reflecting on my own youth. I'm 49.

The 10 commandments address, or at least the last five do, the way we react with our fellow humans here on earth. Murder is in our own hearts. Greed is in our own hearts. Racism, unjust war and slavery are implied in those two specific commandments. I'd have to say that environment has to do with one of the first five. Respecting God's creation. But still, I have to ask, are you angry with God for issuing His commandments? Or are you angry with humanity for ignoring them?

[Dookus]

38. It would be silly

to be angry at something I don't believe exists. Nor am I angry about people ignoring his commandments. In fact, I'm not angry at all - I'm just trying to make the point that the 10 Commandments do NOT in any way, shape or form address the major issues of morality that humans face.

The 10 commandments do NOT, either explicitly or implicitly, address racism and slavery, just to mention two examples. Why not? You seem to believe it's because people have failed to adequately interpret the commandments. I disagree. I believe that slavery and racism were NOT IMMORAL to the ancient Hebrews. The fact that the Bible addresses how slaves are to be treated is evidence of that.

Therefore, the morality of the ancient Hebrews is not perfect, and does not come from god. It merely reflects the mores of the time and place they lived. If the 10 Commandments were really the reflection of a god-given perfect morality, they would be very different.

[boomboom]

40. OK, what do you think addresses morality?

I don't believe it's because we've failed to interpret the commandments. I believe it's because we've failed to adhere. The commandments do not condone slavery. The Old Testament lifestyle does treat slavery as a given. We have risen above the reality of the first century. We don't condone slavery, we believe in equal rights for all minorities Or we should, based on God's law. Again, I ask you...do you think the ten commandments were at fault, or man's interpretation? And how is God at fault now? Or then? He gave humanity his rules. Humanity was granted the right to exercise adherence or not. Are we mad at God for his commandments? Or man at his defiance?

[Dookus]

42. Again

nobody's mad here, unless I've angered you.

My point is a simple one, and I'm wondering how you could've missed it.

The 10 Commandments are NOT divine. If they were, they'd be a whole lot better.

If *I* can come up with 10 better rules for morality, then it's pretty clear the old testament morality does not come from an infinitely loving, all-knowing God, but are merely the reflections of the customs and mores of the people who wrote them - the ancient Hebrews.

Evidently, at the time, God did not think slavery was immoral enough to proscribe it. I would've done better.

[Igel]

61. One cannot judge God and still believe in him.

If you think you're better than God, then God's not really your god. Replace him and change religions, or drop him without a replacement and be an atheist.

[bobweaver]

18. The Republican Commandments

See this and more at:
http://fireworksland.com/nuke/nukeyalernews.html

[boomboom]

28. Yep

The kings of the earth will rise up and return to dust

[GOPBasher]

53. I love those!!!

Thanks for posting that!! :bounce:

[Spinzonner]

20. Only Release 1.0

He's had real problems getting the 2.0 release debugged

[mom cat]

33. The "ten commandments" are the rules that the patriarchal invaders of

the "motherland" used to subvert the more equalitarian ways of the people they brutally conquered.

Thou shalt not steal: Stealing was not a problem in a society where property was held in common by the community. Only when the invading hordes came into Old Europe and conquered defenseless people, stealing everything they had in the process, did stealing become an issue. Now it would be called a sin to steal from the invading thieves.

Thou shalt not covet another man's wife: Again, this rule was aimed at legitimizing the brutal subjugation of women who had not previously been seen as property, nor subjected to stoning if raped.

The rules against the worship of anything other than one head honcho male was also key to the destruction of a culture that revered life and the bearers of life. To that end the reverence for menstrual blood
(which represented the mystery of new life) was replaced by ceremonies where men displayed power over blood by performing blood sacrifices and by circumcising males. The latter bizarre ritual proved that men could also "bleed" "down there" and at a younger age than females. Women's bleeding was demoted to "unclean" and had to be atoned for by the killing of birds and washed away at a ritual bath in the temple.

The injunction to honor one's parents is followed by the sobering phrase " that thy days might be long". In other words, failure to obey ones parents could lead to being killed by them.

Thou shalt do no murder: This rule obviously applied only to the conquered, not the conquerors...as it still does today.

The ten patriarchal rules were tools of the invading hoarders and were designed to legitimize the subjugation of women, the oppression of gentler people, and the establishment of property rights - their theft of the commons. It was also used to institute hierarchal societies where the rule of rich white males became "God's plan".

For more info, read The Chalice and the Blade by Rianne Eisler. then peruse Gurder Lerner's Creation of Patriarchy and Barbara Walker's Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets.

The blueprint for the destruction of societies that were in harmony with each other and the earth is in the core religious statements of the invaders. In Hinduism, for example, the caste system and the concept of karma was used to justify the oppression of the conquered darker skinned people.

The teachings of Jesus...especially those documented in the earliest of the Gospels: Mark, Show signs of attempting to reverse the status quo. However, the movement was soon to be co opted by the powers that be and morphed into a continued justification for the oppression. State sponsored religion and religion patronized by the ruling elites always is of the latter variety. As for the words of Jesus..just look at what the death squads did to Liberation theologians.

[Dookus]

47. You lost me...

when did the ancient Hebrews invade Europe?

[mom cat]

48. Their predecessors did and the Old testament is full of the history of the

matriarchal societies that were conquered and all of the "smite" that was used to accomplish the feat.

[bloom]

55. thanks for that perspective

I agree with the OP that the "commandments" could be better. You have explained why...

[htuttle]

49. Blame the Egyptians

In the Papyrus of Ani, there are nearly parallel laws (worded as pledges to be made upon judgement after death) to the Ten Commandments.

They predate the Ten Commandments by quite a bit.

"And Moses became learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds."
- Acts 7:22

[trotsky]

52. An outstanding question, Dookus.

That was another major reason I became an atheist: I realized I had a more refined sense of morality than God did.

[catbert836]

54. God could have said all that!

But the Ancient Hebrews said " We don't like these 5, so we'll eliminate them and make it just 10! And how would we know? God didn't write the Bible!

[Dookus]

56. according to fundamentalists

he did.

[Az]

60. Actually there are two versions of the 10 commandments

Read through the story. The first set Moses delivers to the people reads different from the second set God carves himself. Check out the revised version in Ex 34. They always seem to leave off the seathing a kid in it's mother's milk in the published 10.

[MidwestMomma]

57. Good question

I always thought the ten commandments were a little top heavy. Heavy on the diety rules and a little light on the morality rules.

But I guess maybe God thought the best way to get people to behave was to make sure they knew he was the boss and to pay no attention to the other gods behind the curtains.

Just my 2 cents...

[Lexingtonian]

58. wow, what a bunch of responses!

Thou shalt not own another human being - slavery is an abomination.
Thou shalt not make war.
Thou shalt care for the Earth and keep it clean, for all my living creation relies upon it.
Thou shalt spread the wealth around a little.

I think the offensive parts of all of these things violate the two "covet" Commandments, and variously other ones. The two "covet"-based ones are the ones people take least seriously, for some reason. True, there are two of them where one would suffice- but the way most people think about the set of Ten, they're both treated as filler and mentally not taken seriously. They are 'thoughtcrime' rules as much as about actions, telling people not to even mentally want stuff they don't need or deserve. Maybe that's why the point is repeated twice, in the original- for emphasis. Notice how the fundies never talk about them, nor do they live by them....

Thou shalt signal when turning or changing lanes. (granted, this one might've confused the ancient Hebrews a little)

Now that's truly an omission. You might want to take that up with The Big Fellow in person.

As for the Commandments that strike you as somehow impractical, and ones that strike you as omitted...the point of the whole book is not actually to make the reader's outward behavior fit some ideal. The point is for the reader to do as best as s/he can in living a life of growth, to a higher form of maturity. The Ten is just a starting point- and, as we all know, remarkably few people really ever really get to where they can say they've surpassed that level, live at a level where these have stopped troubling them.

To my understanding the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is arranged as a guidebook, using the history of the People Israel as a context and excuse and illustration to talk about the Spiritual Journey it is designed to describe and, to some degree by indirection, argue about. It starts with birth (Genesis) and ends at the attainment of Prophecy. The Ten Commandments are, by the way, simply the most concrete parts of a more important whole- the notion/assertion of Covenant With God. The TCs are simply the most basic rules of Covenant, and functionally they're derivatives of a central rule (about a spiritual reality to all people and things that is to be accepted) that is extremely difficult to articulate in a general and full way. People who realize and live the central rule, and thus Covenant, are what the real point is. They seem to live in a way that does the utter opposite of violating other people, and the Jewish concept of Mitzva captures this sense of inversion of the way people tend to act.

The TCs are closely related to some Egyptian catechisms of rules and the Code of Hammurabi- but a substantial chunk of the Hebrew Bible is rewritten material from all parts of the Fertile Crescent. The Creation stories (both; there are two) are essentially verbatim reiterations of ones found in Sumerian and Akkadian records, as is the story of Noah and the Arc. The Wisdom of Solomon is a monotheistic reworking of an Egyptian Scroll of the Dead that predates it. The people who assembled the HB evidently didn't care, their priority was that the overall message seemed to them clearly conveyed by the set of texts as a whole.

Abraham Joshua Heschel, perhaps the greatest rabbi of our era, thought that the one great innovation in the HB, relative to all the other religions of the world, was the Jewish Sabbath. His perspective on it was that the occurence of it, of people live the Sabbath rightly, represents, in roughly his words, creation of a sanctuary in Time and sanctification of Time. He thought it a thing no other religion has tried or succeeded at as well.

(As a tidbit for materialistic analysis of the TCs, Red China tried out the ten day week in some factories for a time in order to see whether it increased productivity. It didn't give the desired results. Further objective experimentation using weeks of various lengths showed that the seven day work week maximizes middle and long term productivity.)

As for the Commandments against blasphemy and idolatry, doesn't DU presently illustrate the offensiveness of arrogant and presumptive and excessive God talk- be it by Right wing fools who claim to own Him and represent His Will on Earth, or the zealots whose idolatry is disillusionments or affirmation of their own theories of whatever kind? Doesn't DU enforce, by design and assent, the primacy of one general form of outlook (Democratic) and not smaller, foolisher, loyalties?