Where are we going?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

I have put my two cents in on many threads here in RT and in GD and maintained that eventually our culture will complete its inevitable shift to acceptance of homosexuality as a natural orientation. As an Episcopalian I have been watching the machinations of the Mother Church (in England) deal with the rebel Americans and their gay bishop. (and now, to add insult to injury, a female presiding bishop!) While I am not gay, this issue affects me directly as it impacts where I worship on Sundays and to whom I write the check (and multiply that times a million or so and it is a big financial issue...and that totally excludes the human element).

I am getting a bit discouraged and have wondered for the first time whether or not it (acceptance) is ever going to really happen. I look at other cultures (Islamic fundamentalists come to mind) where homosexuality is a capital crime. I see states where it is still illegal for gay people to adopt children. I see that the gay marriage ammendment is not dead yet. And I read more and more about the "success" (cough...spit..) of ex-gay ministries.

Always I have told myself and everyone who would listen that culture advances slowly. But is it possible that this culture is going to permanently reverse itself? Are we headed back to the closet? These people (the RW) are just not going away..they are not softening. If anything, they are digging in and presenting an even more united front. As we face an uncertain future because of climate change, are our civil liberties going to be the ultimate victims?

Has this sort of thing ever happened in history before, where progressive advances have been made and then backpedaled..permanently? I know the pendulum swings...I guess I'm asking for a crystal ball. I think I will stop participating in threads on this issue because I'm running out of positive responses. I don't like what I see.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

1. Sure, society's go backward sometime.

I come across and interesting bit of information the other day. I have been studying the Roman empire for about the last year or so and something this book mentioned was that there really was not appreciable racism during Roman times. Rome had emperors that were from Africa, Syria, Spain and other countries which had been conquered. Homosexuality went through different periods in which it was completely accepted and other times where it was frowned upon but at no time was homosexuality ever actively persecuted.

So, yes, it is possible for societies to take a step back.

[Ron Green]

2. It think this is the very reason that liberal churches (ones that are

willing to deal with the issues of change) are the hope for society. As long as they will stand up in faith and belief, and struggle to "put on the Christ" in acceptance of ALL humans, then religion is not a divisive and fearful force. The ultimate spiritual evolution cannot happen without Spirit.

[varkam]

3. Two steps forward, three steps back.

Loving someone is harder to do than hating them. Forgiving someone is harder to do than holding a grudge. Looking out for others is harder to do than looking out for yourself.

My father always told me that the things that matter in life are not easy. There's truth in that, I think. The thing that is frustrating for me, with respect to R/T, is that people will read the bible and come away with different conclusions. The people who I've aspired to be more like, the people who have moved me by their actions, have been those who read the bible and came away with a message of love and forgiveness. The problem is that so many more read it and come away with a message of divisiveness and hatred. The second group, whether or not they're the ones in power, are the ones maintaining the status quo currently.

So, as you've said, the message of the day is not one of acceptance. It's one of valuing the differences that distinguish individuals from one another rather than the individuals themselves. It's no surprise our society has been regressing. It's no surprise that messages of unity and solidarity have been drowned out by prejudice and stereotypes. It's easier to do. Appealing to people's fear and ego is easier than appealing to brotherhood and intellect.

Big changes take time. Big change is always two steps forward and three steps back. Right now we are backpeddling, and fast. But the thought that gives me hope is that it's easier to move the ball forward than it is the other way around. All it takes is one person, one event, one set of circumstances to give us that collective "A-Ha!" moment. Then it's another two steps forward.

It matters, ergo it's not easy.

[Random_Australian]

4. Yep, sending half the world back for about 500 years happens

sometimes. Like the dark ages, but even then al-gebra was bieng developed in the middle east. There was no end to the learning. There are always always a number of curious people, putthat together with intelligence and you EVENTUALLY get progress. And minority influence and stuff is needed too.

A few good leaders could stop the insanity. However, the qualities are rare enough and the selection mechanism of democracy too biased towards media-manipulators for there to be much chance, unless something drastic happens.

[SPKrazy]

5. Sometimes I Think It Has Happened Over and Over

maybe more than we will ever realize

[NMMNG]

6. I honestly don't know where we are going

As I came of age I was thrilled to be doing so when I did. Homosexuality was being talked about more openly, it was popping up in movies/TV shows/music more and more and it no longer was as terrifying to be "out" as it once had been in many areas. In my college years and young adulthood I enjoyed many nights at gay bars/clubs and later I vacationed a beach that catered to gay clientele. Gay rights had been increasing dramatically over the decades and it finally seemed like marriage was on the horizon.

Now the tide has turned and gays are under virulent attack from the religious right. At least 11 states have already banned gay marriage and several more have bans on their ballots. The federal government has twice tried to implement the FMA and failed, but the RR is now trying to get together a Constitutional Convention to push the amendment through. If they succeed I have no reason to think they'll stop at denying gays the right to marry. After all, they are so fond of quoting how the Bible says gays should be put to death. I could see that being the "penalty" for anybody who doesn't successfully complete mandatory ex-gay "therapy". Perhaps I need a :tinfoilhat:, but I've read too many of their ravings so I know I'm not completely ready for a padded room.

[JerseygirlCT]

7. Think about how long it is taking for women to be fully emancipated

and you'll either be terribly depressed, or confirmed in your original view that it's moving, but very slowly.

Perhaps it's a matter of one step forward, two steps back?

I take heart when I talk to my teen, though. So little of that seemingly ingrained aversion to homosexuality there. Many friends are gay, and it's a big so-what. If enough of us raise children free from that bias, then the next generation will be better.

Cold comfort to those suffering now, I know. But I still think we'll get there.

[bloom]

8. Recently - I've been reading

Adam, Eve, and the Serpent
by Elaine Pagels


I recommend it for putting into perspective the Judeo-Christian ideas about sexuality.


One thing that she talks about is how extreme some of the ideas were that Jesus/Paul/the Essenes were pushing - because they thought the world was about to end or whatever - and that other writers (Paul pretenders) came along and tried to soften the ideas to make them more acceptable to more people.

So the Bible has both - the extreme and the watered down. People pick out what appeals to them.

Pagels describes how the ideas in the creation story of Adam & Eve (and the Serpent) have been used to explain whatever sexual ideas that various clergy (Jewish and Christian) wanted to talk about - interpreting it various ways. Some say it had nothing to do with sexuality.

She talks about how the Babylonians and Romans were monogamous - and criticized the Jews for polygamy. Also - Jewish law allowed for men's easy divorce from women. Esp. in the interests of procreation.

Pagans accepted prostitution, homosexuality, abortion, and infanticide, and other things that would be considered lewdness, etc. today.

Jesus is said to have discouraged divorce. Paul to discourage marriage - and sex altogether. To keep everyone "pure" for what they thought was an imminent holy war - and there was war against the Romans - where the Jews were crushed.

If these people had not thought the world was going to come to an end - it seems more likely that sex would be encouraged - which for the Jews it was - mostly for the purpose of increasing the Jewish population. That's probably why - the Paul pretender writers - as it looked more likely that the world was not ending right away - became more permissive of sex - at least for procreation. But there are still the ideas mixed in about purity.

For people who still (after 2000 years :eyes: ) take seriously the ideas that the world is about to come to an end (with Jesus' return- not because we are going to blow it up) - the purity aspect of sex (like women "saving" themselves for marriage and sex only for procreation) seems to be important. For the rest of us - not so much.

There are quite a few of the Christian ideas that are codified into laws. Divorce, obscenity/lewd behavior laws, laws against infanticide, incest, prostitution. Some things many of us take for granted.


It interesting to think - how the more it looks like the world - or at least civilization could come to an end - the more people are going to push the purity of sexuality ideas. SO - see how that works? BushCO has his crazy war/occupation over in the Middle East- gets the world into turmoil - lots of press about "Left Behind" and the Religious Right are all about pushing their purity agenda. So - for example - homosexuality has nothing to do with procreation - so it doesn't fit the purity standards. Neither does abortion.

The answer might be to convince people that the world is NOT coming to and end. Or at least - that Jesus is not coming back. There is no need for a holy war. What we need to do is consider the health of the planet. Contraception will be one of the keys. And homosexuality would not hurt anything either - and would, in fact, help. That seems to be the morally responsible position to me.

[hunter]

9. My bet is global warming is going to wash out everything.

One way or another this culture is going to end.

We can work for a better culture, or we can let things revert to the usual superstitious and feudal chaos that is the most common human condition.

I'm actually a bit optimistic. The increasing noise the right wing makes is a sound of anguish. They dig in, but they cannot hold on. The fundamentalist utopia they imagine is not sustainable.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. What I have been told

from various mystics, is that what you are seeing is the last throes before sanity can take hold. The fact that there are homosexuals who are not only welcome in Sufi orders but also hold senior teaching posts in them shows that there is tolerance in some branches of Islam. May this tolerance spread throughout society.